to Europeans: can you please try explain to me why your countries accept Muslims

[troleybüs]

How do you decide who is a muslim btw?

Do you assume based on their birthplace?
Take my case. I am an atheist born in Istanbul. My turkish identity card has "muslim" written on it. I work as a researcher in a prestigious french university, and I contribute rather positively to the french society (I had many students, postdocs etc.). So you want france to kick me out, or not let me and my family into france based on what is written on my identity card? Very smart. I hate islam more than you do, believe me...

Or do you just ask? Do you think people who have no problem killing innocent people indiscriminately will have any problem lying to you about their religion? Muslims even have a word for it, it's called takiyye (in turkish spelling anyway). You are allowed to lie to further your religious goals.

So the rational thing is to not approach with a broad brush. And to try to identify who is dangerous and who is not, instead of trying to identify who is muslim and who is not, which doesn't immediately translate to violence or lack thereof anyway.

I guess this is the principle. But I agree that in practice the french are a bit too idealistic. They should probably come up with a better way of identifying the risks. Not everyone that can provide a translated cassier de judissiare from their home country is innocent in real life.

Good to see you in forum again.

In Turkey %50 of population support ISIS and other %50 hate them to death.
%99 of the people have written Muslim in their ID card, even they don't. That's stupid country policy. If you want to change it you'll face big problems in your social life.
So, I believe in God but am not a Muslim. I feed 2.5 million Syrians with my tax money, I cover your EU and you say to me I face double standards when I go to Europe. You can GTFOH and die alone with your racist thoughts.

[Souldream]

ISIS terrorists had French passport. They aren't from regular refugees. So, what's the point here? You want Middle Age religion wars again?

This is not yet confirmed that the passport was from one of the terrorist ... so far , only Greece confirmed that the passport found on ground was validated for entrance in Greece ... that's all ...

[jasonjm]

How do you decide who is a muslim btw?

Do you assume based on their birthplace?
Take my case. I am an atheist born in Istanbul. My turkish identity card has "muslim" written on it. I work as a researcher in a prestigious french university, and I contribute rather positively to the french society (I had many students, postdocs etc.). So you want france to kick me out, or not let me and my family into france based on what is written on my identity card? Very smart. I hate islam more than you do, believe me...

Or do you just ask? Do you think people who have no problem killing innocent people indiscriminately will have any problem lying to you about their religion? Muslims even have a word for it, it's called takiyye (in turkish spelling anyway). You are allowed to lie to further your religious goals.

So the rational thing is to not approach with a broad brush. And to try to identify who is dangerous and who is not, instead of trying to identify who is muslim and who is not, which doesn't immediately translate to violence or lack thereof anyway.

I guess this is the principle. But I agree that in practice the french are a bit too idealistic. They should probably come up with a better way of identifying the risks. Not everyone that can provide a translated cassier de judissiare from their home country is innocent in real life.

At no point did I or I think anyone in this thread say it would be a choice to kick existing Muslim citizens out of a country, as that is wrong. The countries that gave them citizenship cannot and should not go back on that.

My question was why accept more Muslims.

[Souldream]

First there is on EU law ... that force the "Family assembly" so if you give nationality of 1 member of the family , then he has the right to bring his complete 1 level family ... bad or good one ... no matter

And secondly ... to be politically correct ... hoo yes ... and for Germany ...to get worker more cheap , good slave with low salary !

[jasonjm]

How do you decide who is a muslim btw?

Do you assume based on their birthplace?
Take my case. I am an atheist born in Istanbul. My turkish identity card has "muslim" written on it. I work as a researcher in a prestigious french university, and I contribute rather positively to the french society (I had many students, postdocs etc.). So you want france to kick me out, or not let me and my family into france based on what is written on my identity card? Very smart. I hate islam more than you do, believe me...

Or do you just ask? Do you think people who have no problem killing innocent people indiscriminately will have any problem lying to you about their religion? Muslims even have a word for it, it's called takiyye (in turkish spelling anyway). You are allowed to lie to further your religious goals.

So the rational thing is to not approach with a broad brush. And to try to identify who is dangerous and who is not, instead of trying to identify who is muslim and who is not, which doesn't immediately translate to violence or lack thereof anyway.

I guess this is the principle. But I agree that in practice the french are a bit too idealistic. They should probably come up with a better way of identifying the risks. Not everyone that can provide a translated cassier de judissiare from their home country is innocent in real life.

Good to see you in forum again.

In Turkey %50 of population support ISIS and other %50 hate them to death.
%99 of the people have written Muslim in their ID card, even they don't. That's stupid country policy. If you want to change it you'll face big problems in your social life.
So, I believe in God but am not a Muslim. I feed 2.5 million Syrians with my tax money, I cover your EU and you say to me I face double standards when I go to Europe. You can GTFOH and die alone with your racist thoughts.

So 50 percent of your country supports people who think all non Muslims should die, and you don't think that is going to cause issues when you go to non Muslim countries?

[iv4n]

Maybe muslims in America can start wearing black hats if you are the bad guys, and white hats if you are the good guy

Well one of best suggestions ever. I just think to not be just about muslims, to every religion have that kind of dressing code.

Most people don´t give it much of a thought but much of those refugees from Syria started their refugee career from next door Iraq earlier in the new century.

This is interesting, I thought about it. Why muslims come to Europe, when they religious views are much different then here in Europe. Why they dont go to Abu Dabi, Dubai, Egipt, Maroko etc... there is a lot of muslim countries out there, why they choose Europe, far and cold Sweeden probably they didnt saw so much snow even on tv.


And on the end I live in Serbia, we are not in EU. But we are here on intersection, refugees crossin my country to come to Europe. What will be if after this attack Europe decide to close the borders? And can u tell me why most of EU countries voted for Kosovo and made a muslim country on place where was christianity?

[BADecker]

I don't understand how Europeans decided it was a good idea to accept muslim immigrants and asylum seekers, refugees etc etc

can someone explain to me the thought process of how local Europeans and their governments decided being over run by muslims was a good strategy for the future of Europe?

I truly believe Islam is not compatible with democracy and the western world, but that is another debate.

The answer is that it is not the doing of the European people and governments... that they accept Muslims. The answer is that God is working it.

Islam says that you are saved for eternal life by your works. Christianity (in which Europe is steeped) say that you are saved by the grace of God through faith In Jesus Christ - the truth.

God is causing severe unrest in the lands of Islam, so that the Muslims flee to, where else? the lands of the Christians. He is doing this because part of His ancient, Old Testament writings say that He will show favor to the descendants of Ishmael.

The time for the return of Jesus is imminent. The Muslims must be given their chance. God is driving the Muslims to the Christians, because Muslims (as a whole) would not accept the Christian missionaries He tried to send them over the hundreds of years since the inception of Islam.

[galdur]

I don't understand how Europeans decided it was a good idea to accept muslim immigrants and asylum seekers, refugees etc etc

can someone explain to me the thought process of how local Europeans and their governments decided being over run by muslims was a good strategy for the future of Europe?

I truly believe Islam is not compatible with democracy and the western world, but that is another debate.

The answer is that it is not the doing of the European people and governments... that they accept Muslims. The answer is that God is working it.

Islam says that you are saved for eternal life by your works. Christianity (in which Europe is steeped) say that you are saved by the grace of God through faith In Jesus Christ - the truth.

God is causing severe unrest in the lands of Islam, so that the Muslims flee to, where else? the lands of the Christians. He is doing this because part of His ancient, Old Testament writings say that He will show favor to the descendants of Ishmael.

The time for the return of Jesus is imminent. The Muslims must be given their chance. God is driving the Muslims to the Christians, because Muslims (as a whole) would not accept the Christian missionaries He tried to send them over the hundreds of years since the inception of Islam.

Yeah, sounds legit

1095 - After consultations with god, Pope Urban II calls upon the Franks to invade the more civilized Muslim world. Begins five centuries of warfare.


"Let those who have hitherto been robbers now become soldiers."
– Urban II addresses his gangster horde.

[Spendulus]

I don't understand how Europeans decided it was a good idea to accept muslim immigrants and asylum seekers, refugees etc etc

can someone explain to me the thought process of how local Europeans and their governments decided being over run by muslims was a good strategy for the future of Europe?

I truly believe Islam is not compatible with democracy and the western world, but that is another debate.

The answer is that it is not the doing of the European people and governments... that they accept Muslims. The answer is that God is working it.

Islam says that you are saved for eternal life by your works. Christianity (in which Europe is steeped) say that you are saved by the grace of God through faith In Jesus Christ - the truth.

God is causing severe unrest in the lands of Islam, so that the Muslims flee to, where else? the lands of the Christians. He is doing this because part of His ancient, Old Testament writings say that He will show favor to the descendants of Ishmael.

The time for the return of Jesus is imminent. The Muslims must be given their chance. God is driving the Muslims to the Christians, because Muslims (as a whole) would not accept the Christian missionaries He tried to send them over the hundreds of years since the inception of Islam.

Christian 7th century medieval bullshit.

Bah.

[gurcani]

At no point did I or I think anyone in this thread say it would be a choice to kick existing Muslim citizens out of a country, as that is wrong. The countries that gave them citizenship cannot and should not go back on that.

My question was why accept more Muslims.

I am not a french citizen. I am a turkish citizen, I work in france and plan to apply for citizenship.

It is besides the point too. There will be more people like me in the future. Who are highly qualified, some of them atheists or agnostics. And your idea of not letting new muslims into europe, will block these people also.

[gurcani]

also a working definition of racism is discrimination (legal or otherwise) of a person based on her race, ethinicity or religion. You can discriminate against someone because he/she has done bad things, or has violent tendencies, or simply because he/she is stupid etc. (the latter being called mentalism for example), those are not as problematic. But if you discriminate based only on race, ethnicity or religion that causes a lot of problems.

Racism actually is not necessarily a problem in itself. But europe has had experience with it, and has decided to never practice it again. Because it doesn't work, and it causes massive social issues. I think the institutional policy against racism is part of the effort to not go down that road again.

[gurcani]

So 50 percent of your country supports people who think all non Muslims should die, and you don't think that is going to cause issues when you go to non Muslim countries?

But crime is an individual concept. I may come from a family of criminals. Unless I commit a crime, I can not be discriminated against. The government can watch me more carefully, but they have to treat me like everyone else. This is a universal principle of human rights.

Even if 99% of Turks were homicidal maniacs, you can't argue that I am also one, unless you have reasonable evidence that I, "as an individual" may be one.

There are actually many details. For instance ISIS guys are sunnis. Some people that flee from them are alevites or shiites. These are different sects of islam. But from the point of ISIS people (or those that support ISIS point of view) alevites and shiites are not muslims. So again, who decides, who is to be classified as muslim? There are also christians in Syria. There are agnostics. There are people who call themselves muslims, but drink alcohol. There are people who don't call themselves muslims but don't eat pork etc. There is a whole spectrum...

So why waste all this effort to figure out who is a muslim and who is not instead of trying to figure out who poses a threat to France?

[Spendulus]

At no point did I or I think anyone in this thread say it would be a choice to kick existing Muslim citizens out of a country, as that is wrong. The countries that gave them citizenship cannot and should not go back on that.

My question was why accept more Muslims.

I am not a french citizen. I am a turkish citizen, I work in france and plan to apply for citizenship.

It is besides the point too. There will be more people like me in the future. Who are highly qualified, some of them atheists or agnostics. And your idea of not letting new muslims into europe, will block these people also.

You have a naivity about the reality of war.  As an example look at the Spanish Civil War.  A man walked into a village and was asked "Are you a Catholic, or a Communist?"  If you answered the wrong way, you got shot.  If you answered the right way, you were enlisted in that side's army.

That's the way it is.  All you'll get for your nuanced intellectual talk is a boot in the face.

"Europe is smarter, wiser and more tolerant now."

No, it does seem they are totally stupid fucks.

....Racism actually is not necessarily a problem in itself. But europe has had experience with it, and has decided to never practice it again. Because it doesn't work, and it causes massive social issues. I think the institutional policy against racism is part of the effort to not go down that road again.

Actually no, the evidence is of continual and rising anti-Semitism in Europe.  Who are you to say there is "an effort to not go down that road again?"

[Spendulus]

So 50 percent of your country supports people who think all non Muslims should die, and you don't think that is going to cause issues when you go to non Muslim countries?

But crime is an individual concept. I may come from a family of criminals. Unless I commit a crime, I can not be discriminated against. The government can watch me more carefully, but they have to treat me like everyone else. This is a universal principle of human rights.

Even if 99% of Turks were homicidal maniacs, you can't argue that I am also one, unless you have reasonable evidence that I, "as an individual" may be one.

There are actually many details. For instance ISIS guys are sunnis. Some people that flee from them are alevites or shiites. These are different sects of islam. But from the point of ISIS people (or those that support ISIS point of view) alevites and shiites are not muslims. So again, who decides, who is to be classified as muslim? There are also christians in Syria. There are agnostics. There are people who call themselves muslims, but drink alcohol. There are people who don't call themselves muslims but don't eat pork etc. There is a whole spectrum...

So why waste all this effort to figure out who is a muslim and who is not instead of trying to figure out who poses a threat to France?

You know, we should let all the criminals out of jail.  Not many of them were rapists.  We could spend our time and money better figuring out which of them were rapists than simply discriminating against all criminals and locking them up.  Just because they were branded as criminals doesn't mean they are all bad, that's discrimination.  There are all types.  Some rape, some rob  banks, some are completely innocent.

Why are you so prejudiced?

[galdur]

They may be totally stupid fucks but at least they´ve not been stupid enough, so far at least, to go on a totally out of control emotional porn binge when they´ve been attacked, rushing into one unplanned war after the other leaving nothing but endless chaos and more war.

[Nemo1024]

Spendulus, the answer to your OP question is: no one really asks us if we want to. Just like no one asks Americans if they want to be at war with Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Syria, etc...
Even when you think you vote for a PM/party that may be more restrictive with immigration, once they get to power, they do a 180.

[Spendulus]

At no point did I or I think anyone in this thread say it would be a choice to kick existing Muslim citizens out of a country, as that is wrong. The countries that gave them citizenship cannot and should not go back on that.

My question was why accept more Muslims.

I am not a french citizen. I am a turkish citizen, I work in france and plan to apply for citizenship.

It is besides the point too. There will be more people like me in the future. Who are highly qualified, some of them atheists or agnostics. And your idea of not letting new muslims into europe, will block these people also.

If there are 100 men at a gate, and one has an AK47 and intends to empty his clip into innocent people, I certainly would not let those 100 people through that gate.

End of Subject.

[Nemo1024]

At no point did I or I think anyone in this thread say it would be a choice to kick existing Muslim citizens out of a country, as that is wrong. The countries that gave them citizenship cannot and should not go back on that.

My question was why accept more Muslims.

I am not a french citizen. I am a turkish citizen, I work in france and plan to apply for citizenship.

It is besides the point too. There will be more people like me in the future. Who are highly qualified, some of them atheists or agnostics. And your idea of not letting new muslims into europe, will block these people also.

There is a fine line. Migration on an individual level, when people come from other cultures because they found a job or love, and when such people are prepared to assimilate or at least live in harmony, is perfectly fine in my book. But what is being done to Europe now, is a controlled and directed invasion (I can't find another word for what I see) by people who for the most part expect preferential treatment, don't intend to work and expect the countries they move to to change to suit their lifestyle.

These two articles from a few months back illustrate well the scope of the problem:
http://stanislavs.org/we-have-nothing-to-losethe-refugees-who-arrived-in-the-european-union-are-ready-to-revolt/
http://stanislavs.org/apocalypse-of-europespecial-report-from-the-flooded-by-refugees-austria/

[Pab]

I don't understand how Europeans decided it was a good idea to accept muslim immigrants and asylum seekers, refugees etc etc

can someone explain to me the thought process of how local Europeans and their governments decided being over run by muslims was a good strategy for the future of Europe?

I truly believe Islam is not compatible with democracy and the western world, but that is another debate.

Tell me why European are accepting Jewish Mosad danger ,Black,Buddhist,Hinduist,USA asylum seekers moreand more of them here,Russians KGB danger,

Do you know many terroristics attacs has been done in past by whithe.Bader Mainhof,Brigadi Rosso,ETA,IRA ,eleven november and many others

Do you know than 120000 people hasied in Syria in still ongoing terroristic attacks,3 mln Vietnamise in done ny USA
 terroristics,Afghanisthan,Iran,Nicaragua many,many others,Palestine,Gaza,There is terroristicattack in Gaza every week.Everyweek Apachappearand thay are shooting

And who is behind ISIS,Brigadi Rosso,Bader Mainhof,Syria war,AlKida etc

[galdur]

And who is behind ISIS,Brigadi Rosso,Bader Mainhof,Syria war,AlKida etc

Indeed. This whole terror mess is very murky and that´s nothing new.

Google "Operation Gladio".

Terrorists and freedom fighters and moderate opposition and other ingredients of this soup...there´s always labels that fit changing publicizing needs and interests. Is war lucrative business? Do businessmen try to create business opportunities? Do armaments manufacturers fund politicians? Do they expect to get something in return? Do bears defecate in the woods?