to Europeans: can you please try explain to me why your countries accept Muslims

[jasonjm]

yes there is an oil issue at play, but explain how the 4 muslims in growing up in Britain were in any way impacted by oil wars in the middle east? They were not. They obviously felt more Muslim than British. I am not saying the oil wars are right, they are not, but in this case those 4 guys were not displaced families from US bombs in iraq or similar.

You make some valid points - but let me make one thing clear - I am in no way an apologist for their actions. Far from it - they have forfeited their rights to life as far as I'm concerned. No, its just that I am more concerned with getting at the root cause of the problem - I actually don't want to see a repitition of what occurred last Friday.

And to my mind, the root cause is not Islam. For years they told us that the root cause of the troubles in Ireland was religion also - in that case it was supposed to be Catholicism vs. Protestantism.
 Of course, this was just a red herring, the legitimation that was expediant to maintain an exploitative domination - the root of the problem was British emperialism. But if you say that out loud in the current climate you are supposed to be some kind of lilly livered nancy boy.


     I mean, I know there are those among us that have a much stronger stomach than me, and a more sterling backbone - they are most likely calling for co-ordinated airstrikes and boots on the ground etc etc. as we speak.
    Whereas I personally have been calling for a more honest debate on the issues on foreign policy re. the middle east for a long time, certainly way before 9/11. I have had, and do have, relatives serving out there - so I have a personal vested interest you could say.

   Off to bed for me now. I'll just say this before I go - history repeats itself, first as tragedy, and then as farce.

  All you have to work out is, are you tragic - or are you a joke ?

I do not think we should have ever put one western boot in the middle east, ever. Air strikes are a waste of time too. The only legitimate targets are attacking WMD facilities (not imaginary ones, real ones). And by that I mean attacking the actual WMD facility itself, not the entire country. but that is just my opinion.

[Spendulus]

yes there is an oil issue at play, but explain how the 4 muslims in growing up in Britain were in any way impacted by oil wars in the middle east? They were not. They obviously felt more Muslim than British. I am not saying the oil wars are right, they are not, but in this case those 4 guys were not displaced families from US bombs in iraq or similar.

You make some valid points - but let me make one thing clear - I am in no way an apologist for their actions. Far from it - they have forfeited their rights to life as far as I'm concerned. No, its just that I am more concerned with getting at the root cause of the problem - I actually don't want to see a repitition of what occurred last Friday.

And to my mind, the root cause is not Islam. For years they told us that the root cause of the troubles in Ireland was religion also - in that case it was supposed to be Catholicism vs. Protestantism.
 Of course, this was just a red herring, the legitimation that was expediant to maintain an exploitative domination - the root of the problem was British emperialism. But if you say that out loud in the current climate you are supposed to be some kind of lilly livered nancy boy.


     I mean, I know there are those among us that have a much stronger stomach than me, and a more sterling backbone - they are most likely calling for co-ordinated airstrikes and boots on the ground etc etc. as we speak.
    Whereas I personally have been calling for a more honest debate on the issues on foreign policy re. the middle east for a long time, certainly way before 9/11. I have had, and do have, relatives serving out there - so I have a personal vested interest you could say.

   Off to bed for me now. I'll just say this before I go - history repeats itself, first as tragedy, and then as farce.

  All you have to work out is, are you tragic - or are you a joke ?

I do not think we should have ever put one western boot in the middle east, ever. Air strikes are a waste of time too. The only legitimate targets are attacking WMD facilities (not imaginary ones, real ones). And by that I mean attacking the actual WMD facility itself, not the entire country. but that is just my opinion.

In the context of war, air strikes are certainly not a waste of time, but an essential aspect of any winning strategy.  Your talk about "legitimate targets" is not framed correctly in any particular context.  War, rooting out insurgents, spy and covert activity looking for singular targets, blah blah blah.

Air strikes in the absence of a boots on the ground general war are a completely different matter.  Here "air strikes" must be segregated into styles, such as fighter/bomber vs. drone strike, versus B52 converntional munitions, vs cruise missile precision targeting.  These must then be viewed in line with the nature of supporting ground forces, and their level of competence and strength against an enemy.

There is nothing nice about this stuff. 

[galdur]

Putin tanks in New Hitler survey as Whatshisname soars.

Current standings:  
Whatshisname, the head of that ISIS thing 92%
Vladimir Putin, evil dictator of Russia 8%

Standings from Weekly Survey: Who is the New Hitler, by Webcrawlers United, Routed, Hitler Franchise [TM]

[practicaldreamer]

I am strongly included to assert some causation to a phenomena of violence associated strictly with Islam, to some aspects of Islam itself.

Well, I suppose you are right to some extent. Islam is definitely in the mix - but for me its just not the "prime mover". You certainly can't imagine turn the other cheek Christians acting in a similar fashion, I'll grant you.

I suppose what I'm driving at is best summed up by William James when he said  - "Religion makes felicitous and easy, what in any case is necessary".

Its working out what is necessary for certain groups that should be the focus of our attention. Take away someones home, their countries wealth, their right to self determination - murder those that protest against it - and things become necessary that weren't necessary before.




The Irish (and I am of Irish descent) came to mainland UK to find work. They were living in poverty in Ireland, often starving - though there was no famine - and so had no choice but to make the trip over the water, leaving their homeland behind. It was necessary.
  On arrival they were greeted often by racist xenophobes - but, if they were lucky, they got to find work doing the hardest, most dangerous and least well paid jobs that the natives didn't want to do. They formed their own communities, as all immigrant populations do, but slowly over the years became more integrated and assimilated into the wider population. I myself, my very existence, is a testament to this.

Anyhow, I digress. What I'm driving at is that the Islam bogeyman provides an easy to grasp handle on the situation for the masses - but really, to my mind, the main driver is economic necessity and/or economic exploitation. 
 
   

[PrikiNo.1]

I think, instead of asking why europeans countires accept muslims, we should ask our self: When we plan to teach this people that Islam is not the answer?

What I mean by that? People who belong to this religion think that the Islam is the right way of believing in God! Do you think that this is normal thing? If that text is sacred as they says, then why it teach them to look in one direction?

I don't have against muslims, but I can not accept the fact that those people believe so blindly in that texts!

I don´t know: if adults are into this imaginary friends in the sky thing, doesn´t it make more sense to try to standardize it? So called christians have literally thousands of sects and cults everyone of which believes that theirs is the only right god and the way to believe. So they don´t even agree on the number of those imaginary friends. Which is understandable since what those heavenly creatures are mostly interested in is money for their deputies in charge of all those cults. It´s competing rackets, that´s all.

Mate, sorry to say this, but you don't know anything about religion and spirituality...

Because, if you do, you will know the difference between religion and the Bible. You will know that what the preachers teach us and what is written in the Bible is so so wrong. You will also know that the people who are leading the temples are do that to earn money, just like it was written in the New Testament.

People having a problem when they try to think of God and his power, but they actually don't see that God was create us in His image (so we are like Him) and if we want to unlock those powers, the first thing that we must do is to start to believe in our self.

Tell me, how you would be able to believe in others if you actually don't believe in yourself? Or tell me, do you prepare to believe in some thing bigger that you, if you first don't believe in yourself?

[galdur]

I think, instead of asking why europeans countires accept muslims, we should ask our self: When we plan to teach this people that Islam is not the answer?

What I mean by that? People who belong to this religion think that the Islam is the right way of believing in God! Do you think that this is normal thing? If that text is sacred as they says, then why it teach them to look in one direction?

I don't have against muslims, but I can not accept the fact that those people believe so blindly in that texts!

I don´t know: if adults are into this imaginary friends in the sky thing, doesn´t it make more sense to try to standardize it? So called christians have literally thousands of sects and cults everyone of which believes that theirs is the only right god and the way to believe. So they don´t even agree on the number of those imaginary friends. Which is understandable since what those heavenly creatures are mostly interested in is money for their deputies in charge of all those cults. It´s competing rackets, that´s all.

Mate, sorry to say this, but you don't know anything about religion and spirituality...

Because, if you do, you will know the difference between religion and the Bible. You will know that what the preachers teach us and what is written in the Bible is so so wrong. You will also know that the people who are leading the temples are do that to earn money, just like it was written in the New Testament.

People having a problem when they try to think of God and his power, but they actually don't see that God was create us in His image (so we are like Him) and if we want to unlock those powers, the first thing that we must do is to start to believe in our self.

Tell me, how you would be able to believe in others if you actually don't believe in yourself? Or tell me, do you prepare to believe in some thing bigger that you, if you first don't believe in yourself?

This closeness to the other, to the point of feeling that he is someone who belongs to me, overcomes every barrier of nationality, social extraction and religion … as the good Samaritan of the Gospel parable teaches us. It also overcomes that culture in a negative sense in which, both in rich and poor countries, human beings are accepted or refused according to utilitarian criteria, especially in terms of social or economic utility. This mentality is the parent of the so-called 'medicine of desires': an increasingly widespread custom in rich countries, characterised by the search for physical perfection at all costs, in the illusion of eternal youth; a custom that leads indeed to the rejection and marginalisation of all that is not 'efficient', that is seen as a burden or a hindrance, or is simply ugly.

[galdur]

Cute, huh? Stolen from the pope.

[elliwilli]

because some of us in the UK are not hateful. some of us truly believe that the majority of asylum seekers and such are not terrorists.
It just makes me sad when bad stuff happens and the only thing i hear are cries of "Bloody Immigrants"

[Balthazar]

the majority of asylum seekers and such are not terrorists.

They're not terrorists indeed. Just social parasites, who desperately want to receive monthly subsidy from your pocket. State will help them gladly with that, through inventing new taxes or increasing the profit tax, for example... Just like it happened in France.

[Spendulus]

I am strongly included to assert some causation to a phenomena of violence associated strictly with Islam, to some aspects of Islam itself.

Well, I suppose you are right to some extent. Islam is definitely in the mix - but for me its just not the "prime mover". You certainly can't imagine turn the other cheek Christians acting in a similar fashion, I'll grant you.
....
Anyhow, I digress. What I'm driving at is that the Islam bogeyman provides an easy to grasp handle on the situation for the masses - but really, to my mind, the main driver is economic necessity and/or economic exploitation. 

That must be why England, Sweden, and other countries find their problems with rape are almost completely caused by muslims.

There's nothing wrong with making a generic statement, that if you move a certain number of Muslims into a Western country, that various sorts of crime and assault will increase, that there will be a small fraction of radical and violent terrorists included, and other negatives. 

Turning a blind eye to this is ignoring reality.  Better to ask "Is the increase in rape significant?"  And other questions which explore the reality of the social change.

[Gronthaing]

That must be why England, Sweden, and other countries find their problems with rape are almost completely caused by muslims.

Almost completely caused by muslims? Do you have a source for this? Not saying it can't be true but seems odd. That should be true in other european countries with higher muslims populations then. Percentage wise and actual numbers.

There's nothing wrong with making a generic statement, that if you move a certain number of Muslims into a Western country, that various sorts of crime and assault will increase, that there will be a small fraction of radical and violent terrorists included, and other negatives. 

Muslims from Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Iran, etc are all the same to you? What about that study that talks about crime rates in muslim countries or countries with large muslim populations to be less than non-muslim countries for example? Generalizations don't always make sense.

[vero]

the majority of asylum seekers and such are not terrorists.

They're not terrorists indeed. Just social parasites, who desperately want to receive monthly subsidy from your pocket. State will help them gladly with that, through inventing new taxes or increasing the profit tax, for example... Just like it happened in France.

So what is their current tax rate? This doesn't seem fair at all but then again their really isn't much fair about Socialism anyway.

[practicaldreamer]

That must be why England, Sweden, and other countries find their problems with rape are almost completely caused by muslims.

There's nothing wrong with making a generic statement, that if you move a certain number of Muslims into a Western country, that various sorts of crime and assault will increase, that there will be a small fraction of radical and violent terrorists included, and other negatives.  

Turning a blind eye to this is ignoring reality.  Better to ask "Is the increase in rape significant?"  And other questions which explore the reality of the social change.

 This is a slightly different point to the argument that I was addressing.What exactly are we talking about here ? The Syrian crisis ? Refugees in general ? Multi cultural societies ? Islam/religion ? Sex/hate crimes ?  I've already tried to answer the OP's question - but the goalposts are getting shifted.

There have been numerous cases over the last few years of gangs of men (of ethnic descent) that have been grooming and sexually exploiting young girls in inner city shitholes, predominantly in the north of England. I have no idea what religion these men were, if any.  These men are without doubt worthless parasitic scum.

Is there a real problem here ? Yes there is.

But putting it down to Islam is a bit too easy - and quite probably counter productive.



    It has to be said, that if you want sexual exploitation of the basest kind, the really hateful stuff, then you need to have a look at what our Prime Minister, General Chief of Staff and numerous other pillars of the Establishment/members of the Great and Good were engaging in during the 1970's in orphanages throughout the land. Do a search on Haut de la Garenne for example.
   I don't think it involved the Koran.



  Your question is a question re. the feasibility of a multi cultural society, the melting pot. The Far Right, I know, tells us its an unobtainable and undesirable myth. Their idea is that a community that isn't "infiltrated" by foreign elements is a happy community. This itself is mythical. What happens in reality is that immigrant populations give the host population an easy vent for its frustrations - that it would otherwise have to turn in on itself.

   FWIW I'd say the notion of a "melting pot" is a misnomer. That being said diverse communities can peacefully coexist for the betterment of all concerned. A thriving economy helps. As does a bit of tolerance of difference.



  

[erickimani]

that is a very lame question you have there. Everybody has a right to religion and depends on their heart. Remember those terrorist attacking innocent people in the name of Islam they are non but lost souls. they have been radicalized for the benefit of few evil people no Islam. Instead of such a post we should be trying to preach peace among st ourselves not hating. Peace peace

[PrikiNo.1]

I think, instead of asking why europeans countires accept muslims, we should ask our self: When we plan to teach this people that Islam is not the answer?

What I mean by that? People who belong to this religion think that the Islam is the right way of believing in God! Do you think that this is normal thing? If that text is sacred as they says, then why it teach them to look in one direction?

I don't have against muslims, but I can not accept the fact that those people believe so blindly in that texts!

I don´t know: if adults are into this imaginary friends in the sky thing, doesn´t it make more sense to try to standardize it? So called christians have literally thousands of sects and cults everyone of which believes that theirs is the only right god and the way to believe. So they don´t even agree on the number of those imaginary friends. Which is understandable since what those heavenly creatures are mostly interested in is money for their deputies in charge of all those cults. It´s competing rackets, that´s all.

Mate, sorry to say this, but you don't know anything about religion and spirituality...

Because, if you do, you will know the difference between religion and the Bible. You will know that what the preachers teach us and what is written in the Bible is so so wrong. You will also know that the people who are leading the temples are do that to earn money, just like it was written in the New Testament.

People having a problem when they try to think of God and his power, but they actually don't see that God was create us in His image (so we are like Him) and if we want to unlock those powers, the first thing that we must do is to start to believe in our self.

Tell me, how you would be able to believe in others if you actually don't believe in yourself? Or tell me, do you prepare to believe in some thing bigger that you, if you first don't believe in yourself?

This closeness to the other, to the point of feeling that he is someone who belongs to me, overcomes every barrier of nationality, social extraction and religion … as the good Samaritan of the Gospel parable teaches us. It also overcomes that culture in a negative sense in which, both in rich and poor countries, human beings are accepted or refused according to utilitarian criteria, especially in terms of social or economic utility. This mentality is the parent of the so-called 'medicine of desires': an increasingly widespread custom in rich countries, characterised by the search for physical perfection at all costs, in the illusion of eternal youth; a custom that leads indeed to the rejection and marginalisation of all that is not 'efficient', that is seen as a burden or a hindrance, or is simply ugly.

Wow, stop please! If you are talking about how the system if functioned, then you have the same thing in the Bible...

It's very clearly written in the Old Testament how should one government works like. The government is chosen by the people, to serve to the people. Here, I will give some practical example:

If you are chosen to be leader of group then what are you responsibilities? To serve the group by leading then and teaching them. It is the same with the government, the people are choose so they can lead them in right direction not in wrong like we have now in 21 century. That is the Matrix! That's why we have so many poor people! That's why the world is unbalanced!

[Spendulus]

That must be why England, Sweden, and other countries find their problems with rape are almost completely caused by muslims.

Almost completely caused by muslims? Do you have a source for this? Not saying it can't be true but seems odd. That should be true in other european countries with higher muslims populations then. Percentage wise and actual numbers.

There's nothing wrong with making a generic statement, that if you move a certain number of Muslims into a Western country, that various sorts of crime and assault will increase, that there will be a small fraction of radical and violent terrorists included, and other negatives. 

Muslims from Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Iran, etc are all the same to you? What about that study that talks about crime rates in muslim countries or countries with large muslim populations to be less than non-muslim countries for example? Generalizations don't always make sense.

No they do not always make sense.  I am simply arguing in favor of looking at the facts instead of covering them up.  Where ever they lead.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

[galdur]

I think, instead of asking why europeans countires accept muslims, we should ask our self: When we plan to teach this people that Islam is not the answer?

What I mean by that? People who belong to this religion think that the Islam is the right way of believing in God! Do you think that this is normal thing? If that text is sacred as they says, then why it teach them to look in one direction?

I don't have against muslims, but I can not accept the fact that those people believe so blindly in that texts!

I don´t know: if adults are into this imaginary friends in the sky thing, doesn´t it make more sense to try to standardize it? So called christians have literally thousands of sects and cults everyone of which believes that theirs is the only right god and the way to believe. So they don´t even agree on the number of those imaginary friends. Which is understandable since what those heavenly creatures are mostly interested in is money for their deputies in charge of all those cults. It´s competing rackets, that´s all.

Mate, sorry to say this, but you don't know anything about religion and spirituality...

Because, if you do, you will know the difference between religion and the Bible. You will know that what the preachers teach us and what is written in the Bible is so so wrong. You will also know that the people who are leading the temples are do that to earn money, just like it was written in the New Testament.

People having a problem when they try to think of God and his power, but they actually don't see that God was create us in His image (so we are like Him) and if we want to unlock those powers, the first thing that we must do is to start to believe in our self.

Tell me, how you would be able to believe in others if you actually don't believe in yourself? Or tell me, do you prepare to believe in some thing bigger that you, if you first don't believe in yourself?

This closeness to the other, to the point of feeling that he is someone who belongs to me, overcomes every barrier of nationality, social extraction and religion … as the good Samaritan of the Gospel parable teaches us. It also overcomes that culture in a negative sense in which, both in rich and poor countries, human beings are accepted or refused according to utilitarian criteria, especially in terms of social or economic utility. This mentality is the parent of the so-called 'medicine of desires': an increasingly widespread custom in rich countries, characterised by the search for physical perfection at all costs, in the illusion of eternal youth; a custom that leads indeed to the rejection and marginalisation of all that is not 'efficient', that is seen as a burden or a hindrance, or is simply ugly.

Wow, stop please! If you are talking about how the system if functioned, then you have the same thing in the Bible...

It's very clearly written in the Old Testament how should one government works like. The government is chosen by the people, to serve to the people. Here, I will give some practical example:

If you are chosen to be leader of group then what are you responsibilities? To serve the group by leading then and teaching them. It is the same with the government, the people are choose so they can lead them in right direction not in wrong like we have now in 21 century. That is the Matrix! That's why we have so many poor people! That's why the world is unbalanced!

Well, I stole that wisdom from the Pope or his script writers like I said up there. As for politicians, it isn´t like they jump up on a soapbox and the masses flock to their banner and their brilliance. No, it costs money to advertise them and promote them like pretty much everything else I guess. That´s democracy for you. Who´s their master, the people or their corporate sonsors? That isn´t always clear.

[Balthazar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uigRJkE7GMI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohh-eZ6isgM

Very interesting video, recommended to everyone.

[galdur]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uigRJkE7GMI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohh-eZ6isgM

Very interesting video, recommended to everyone.

I guess they poop and piss in plastic bags in those trailer trucks. 

[Balthazar]

https://www.rt.com/news/322963-isis-dolls-attack-foiled/

IS uses dolls, the US uses drones . What's the difference when the end result is the same, innocent children are killed.

This is also going to happen in Europe. If they won't be stopped of course.