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Author Topic: Form 1099-K for 2011  (Read 6172 times)
TTBit
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September 20, 2010, 10:58:13 AM
 #1

Starting in 2011, paypal will start reporting to the IRS if you gross more than $20,000 in a calendar year, or if you do more than 200 transactions.

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Starting in 2011, therefore, sellers will be expected to report gross payments via online or credit card payments that coincide with reported 1099-K amounts, then to make adjustments to account for expenses and cash equivalents, fees, chargebacks, refunds, and so on.
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As a practical matter, if you're an eBay seller, this will effect you unless  your gross sales are under $20,000 for the year or you receive fewer than 200 transactions. Reporting for small sellers at this level is not required.

Full article: http://ebay.about.com/od/sellingeffectivel1/a/_sbe_tax1099k.htm

Sellers on e-bay who want to do more than 200 transactions in a year might be looking for a new payment mechanism. I'm not suggesting this is to avoid paying taxes, but rather to avoid government regulation. I suggest buy/generate coins now, and buy shares in biddingpond.com  Wink 

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September 20, 2010, 04:50:30 PM
 #2

Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around?

The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility?

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September 20, 2010, 04:58:23 PM
 #3

Yeah, PayPal is doing this because of Red.


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September 20, 2010, 08:38:55 PM
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From now on we will refer to it as "the unit formerly known as bitcoin" and use a non-reproducible symbol, that ought to keep those governments in check!
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September 20, 2010, 09:16:54 PM
 #5

Was just reading this article today:

States working harder to collect online sales taxes - With budgets in crisis, enforcement efforts gather steam

Oh well.  More reason to promote bitcoin...


"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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September 21, 2010, 12:41:29 AM
 #6

Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around?

The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility?


Take responsibility for what?  Calling something what it is?  Regardless, a 1099 would still be required, even when a commodity is being used for said trade.  The IRS expects you to report any kind of transaction wherein the trade value, as measured in US currency on the open market, would exceed their arbitrary numbers.  It doesn't matter if you are actually trading in US currency, another currency, or a commodity.  Not to say that it isn't easier to successfully avoid filing a 1099 if no form of currency is (publicly) traded, but that doesn't apply to Bitcoin anyway.  All transactions are public, it's just difficult for anyone to ever be certain what any one person actually has traded.  If two tradesmen agreed to trade a new toilet on the electricians house for a new deck light at the plumbers house, they still haven't avoided a taxable event, even though they both might honestly believe that the government has no legitimate say in the matter.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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September 21, 2010, 03:21:26 AM
 #7

Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around?

The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility?


Take responsibility for what?  Calling something what it is?  Regardless, a 1099 would still be required, even when a commodity is being used for said trade.  The IRS expects you to report any kind of transaction wherein the trade value, as measured in US currency on the open market, would exceed their arbitrary numbers.  It doesn't matter if you are actually trading in US currency, another currency, or a commodity.  Not to say that it isn't easier to successfully avoid filing a 1099 if no form of currency is (publicly) traded, but that doesn't apply to Bitcoin anyway.  All transactions are public, it's just difficult for anyone to ever be certain what any one person actually has traded.  If two tradesmen agreed to trade a new toilet on the electricians house for a new deck light at the plumbers house, they still haven't avoided a taxable event, even though they both might honestly believe that the government has no legitimate say in the matter.

 I think the irs made some kind of ruling about barter that means tax is paid on the profit from a transfer of value, which bitcoin would fall into.

Its all besides the point considering the fact the irs collects tax regardless of anything written in the constitution ie they will do whatever they want to.
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September 21, 2010, 03:39:29 AM
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 I think the irs made some kind of ruling about barter that means tax is paid on the profit from a transfer of value, which bitcoin would fall into.

Its all besides the point considering the fact the irs collects tax regardless of anything written in the constitution ie they will do whatever they want to.

Full agree that the IRS will do whatever. But there are many things they could technically tax that they won't because it isn't feasible or it would be bad PR. If my neighbors and I watch each others kids with a barter understanding for an average of 6 hours a week for 3 decades then you've got 9000 unreported hours, that's $180k easily. But they will never try to collect I can practically guarantee it. Most people don't even have enough money to pay tax on all trades they make and they don't even think about it.

Maybe Fresno can give us a break for a while and go yell at people for all the barter income tax they owe. Someone needs to make sure they never call it work after all.

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September 21, 2010, 04:02:57 AM
 #9

Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around?

The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility?


Take responsibility for what?  Calling something what it is?  Regardless, a 1099 would still be required, even when a commodity is being used for said trade.  The IRS expects you to report any kind of transaction wherein the trade value, as measured in US currency on the open market, would exceed their arbitrary numbers.  It doesn't matter if you are actually trading in US currency, another currency, or a commodity.  Not to say that it isn't easier to successfully avoid filing a 1099 if no form of currency is (publicly) traded, but that doesn't apply to Bitcoin anyway.  All transactions are public, it's just difficult for anyone to ever be certain what any one person actually has traded.  If two tradesmen agreed to trade a new toilet on the electricians house for a new deck light at the plumbers house, they still haven't avoided a taxable event, even though they both might honestly believe that the government has no legitimate say in the matter.

No, creighto, whatever you just said. Please restrict your 1099 and other reporting to your own personal affairs.

I'm calling for you to take responsibility for your disruption of the threads calling for an assessment of Bitcoin's legal standing. This is something that needs to be done, and is not helped by the invocation of various "everybody knows" laws at every turn.

Inappropriate legal terms have been thrown about casually in reference to Bitcoin, and these may be prejudicial to Bitcoin's survival. They need to be addressed and eliminated positively, and directly. Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly.





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September 21, 2010, 04:10:43 AM
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 I think the irs made some kind of ruling about barter that means tax is paid on the profit from a transfer of value, which bitcoin would fall into.

Its all besides the point considering the fact the irs collects tax regardless of anything written in the constitution ie they will do whatever they want to.

Full agree that the IRS will do whatever. But there are many things they could technically tax that they won't because it isn't feasible or it would be bad PR. If my neighbors and I watch each others kids with a barter understanding for an average of 6 hours a week for 3 decades then you've got 9000 unreported hours, that's $180k easily. But they will never try to collect I can practically guarantee it. Most people don't even have enough money to pay tax on all trades they make and they don't even think about it.

Maybe Fresno can give us a break for a while and go yell at people for all the barter income tax they owe. Someone needs to make sure they never call it work after all.

fresno just gave you a three-week break. What did you do with it?

fresno has helped a lot of people to understand the difference between what they owe and what they assume they owe. Were you listening?
FreeMoney
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September 21, 2010, 04:23:20 AM
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 I think the irs made some kind of ruling about barter that means tax is paid on the profit from a transfer of value, which bitcoin would fall into.

Its all besides the point considering the fact the irs collects tax regardless of anything written in the constitution ie they will do whatever they want to.

Full agree that the IRS will do whatever. But there are many things they could technically tax that they won't because it isn't feasible or it would be bad PR. If my neighbors and I watch each others kids with a barter understanding for an average of 6 hours a week for 3 decades then you've got 9000 unreported hours, that's $180k easily. But they will never try to collect I can practically guarantee it. Most people don't even have enough money to pay tax on all trades they make and they don't even think about it.

Maybe Fresno can give us a break for a while and go yell at people for all the barter income tax they owe. Someone needs to make sure they never call it work after all.

fresno just gave you a three-week break. What did you do with it?

fresno has helped a lot of people to understand the difference between what they owe and what they assume they owe. Were you listening?


Hi Fresno, three weeks went by fast.

I have no idea what I owe and neither does anyone else.

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September 21, 2010, 06:57:54 AM
 #12

I'm calling for you to take responsibility for your disruption of the threads calling for an assessment of Bitcoin's legal standing. This is something that needs to be done, and is not helped by the invocation of various "everybody knows" laws at every turn.

I've done nothing of the sort.  You can feel free about funding a legal analysis, but I already have a pretty good idea what the net result would be.  Nor have I said anything about "everybody" knows anything, if that were so, there would not be nearly the level of misinformation on this forum or the Internet at large.  I've been operating under the general assumption that most people are wilfully ignorant, and am genuinely surprised whenever my assumptions are wrong only rarely.

Quote


Inappropriate legal terms have been thrown about casually in reference to Bitcoin, and these may be prejudicial to Bitcoin's survival. They need to be addressed and eliminated positively, and directly. Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly.


Good luck with your fork, keep us updated on your progress.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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September 21, 2010, 07:22:34 AM
 #13

Inappropriate legal terms have been thrown about casually in reference to Bitcoin, and these may be prejudicial to Bitcoin's survival. They need to be addressed and eliminated positively, and directly. Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly.

For United States citizens, it is highly likely that bitcoin matches the IRS's barter rules, if nothing else:
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html


Jeff Garzik, bitcoin core dev team and BitPay engineer; opinions are my own, not my employer.
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September 21, 2010, 08:43:04 AM
 #14

Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around?

The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility?


Take responsibility for what?  Calling something what it is?  Regardless, a 1099 would still be required, even when a commodity is being used for said trade.  The IRS expects you to report any kind of transaction wherein the trade value, as measured in US currency on the open market, would exceed their arbitrary numbers.  It doesn't matter if you are actually trading in US currency, another currency, or a commodity.  Not to say that it isn't easier to successfully avoid filing a 1099 if no form of currency is (publicly) traded, but that doesn't apply to Bitcoin anyway.  All transactions are public, it's just difficult for anyone to ever be certain what any one person actually has traded.  If two tradesmen agreed to trade a new toilet on the electricians house for a new deck light at the plumbers house, they still haven't avoided a taxable event, even though they both might honestly believe that the government has no legitimate say in the matter.

No, creighto, whatever you just said. Please restrict your 1099 and other reporting to your own personal affairs.

I'm calling for you to take responsibility for your disruption of the threads calling for an assessment of Bitcoin's legal standing. This is something that needs to be done, and is not helped by the invocation of various "everybody knows" laws at every turn.

Inappropriate legal terms have been thrown about casually in reference to Bitcoin, and these may be prejudicial to Bitcoin's survival. They need to be addressed and eliminated positively, and directly. Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly.

[facepalm].  This sounds like yet another "magic" word scheme I hear often in libertarian circles.  Supposedly, if you just utter/write the correct sequence of words in court or on legal paperwork, then you are magically except from The State's aggression.  e.g.: don't say "citizen", say "soverign" or "inhabitant"...   Cheesy

A Note on Magic Words and Secret Formulas by Thomas L. Knapp in C4SS.org

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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September 21, 2010, 05:05:55 PM
 #15

I propose that every bitcoin transaction automatically generate and efax a 1099-B form to the IRS. No matter how small the transaction. Nothing like burying them in paperwork to make them rethink a rule. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1099b.pdf

There must be some online service that will send the faxes for free. ;-)
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September 21, 2010, 05:09:49 PM
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There must be some online service that will send the faxes for free. ;-)

http://www.tpc.int/

I use to use this service in the late 90s. Not sure if it still works.
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September 21, 2010, 07:25:37 PM
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Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly.

This is a fool's errand. Trying to bend their rules while also paying respect to their authority is only going to get YOU bent and serviced. Stop trying to beat them on their own terms. Pun intended.

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January 30, 2011, 10:44:25 AM
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Right on schedule, PayPal has started issuing notices requiring the Taxpayer's Id Number (TIN) to comply with the new 1099-K law that went into effect January 1st, 2011.

Here's the response from a PayPal user in response to another who filed a complaint about PayPal's new policy:
 
Quote
Do not provide and stop using Paypal.
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Paypal/Paypal-Using-1099/510302422

Apparently, the other new 1099 law, which may or may not end up getting repealed before it is scheduled to go into effect in 2012, is pretty much universally hated:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/01/21/new-ugly-effect-tax-evasion

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January 30, 2011, 11:10:11 AM
 #19

Uugh.  PayPal is yet one more example of a pro-freedom "thing" that got corrupted into a pro-slavery "thing".  I read a Cato article by the supposed "hard-core" anarcho-capitalist Peter Theil explaining that he founded PayPal to create an alternative currency outside the control of governments and central banks...but now look at what it has become.  Yet another example of being corrupted by money and power, or atleast being forced to give-in to the government's demands.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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January 30, 2011, 08:03:39 PM
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Uugh.  PayPal is yet one more example of a pro-freedom "thing" that got corrupted into a pro-slavery "thing".  I read a Cato article by the supposed "hard-core" anarcho-capitalist Peter Theil explaining that he founded PayPal to create an alternative currency outside the control of governments and central banks...but now look at what it has become.  Yet another example of being corrupted by money and power, or atleast being forced to give-in to the government's demands.

With all due respect, Peter Thiel doesn't run it anymore.

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