Private school is child slavery!!!

[myrkul]

So I guess my apartment will be homesteaded. I (state employee) rent the apartment. My landlord (state employee) leases the apartment for a fixed term. The property development company (joint stock company, majority owned by the state) leases the land below the apartment for a fixed term and leases the public facilities. The government owns the land.

Who gets to homestead the apartment? If it is syndicated, I am afraid the dictator's family syndicate will quickly acquire it.

[sorry that there is so much state making things complicated. I am lucky enough to live in a profoundly statist society.]

Either you are of sub-par intelligence, or intentionally misrepresenting my words.

You, since you are using your apartment, would then own it. (syndicalism, remember?) You would then be part owner of a building. Your landlord would be the manager of this building, and possibly part owner as well (if he has an apartment in the building). You (yourself and the other tenants) could, of course, hire another manager, if this one isn't to your liking.

I see, so we start by redistributing all property to its current occupiers. Land to the tiller style, like a good developmental state, like the US in Hawaii or Maoist China.
The plan is to take over and expropriate property owners. Good plan.

Then once the initial expropriation is done with, we open up the parks, oceans, and stuff for homesteading.

Now people can build up new fortunes (or otherwise) in a stateless society.

Oh, but you are getting soooo close!
You're only missing one word. Let me repeat your post, with that word added, and the extra crap removed:

I see, so we start by redistributing all state property to its current occupiers. Land to the tiller style.
The plan is to take over and expropriate state property. Good plan.

Then once the initial expropriation is done with, we open up the parks, oceans, and stuff for homesteading.

Now people can build up new fortunes (or otherwise) in a stateless society.

There we go!

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[cunicula]

So I guess my apartment will be homesteaded. I (state employee) rent the apartment. My landlord (state employee) leases the apartment for a fixed term. The property development company (joint stock company, majority owned by the state) leases the land below the apartment for a fixed term and leases the public facilities. The government owns the land.

Who gets to homestead the apartment? If it is syndicated, I am afraid the dictator's family syndicate will quickly acquire it.

[sorry that there is so much state making things complicated. I am lucky enough to live in a profoundly statist society.]

Either you are of sub-par intelligence, or intentionally misrepresenting my words.

You, since you are using your apartment, would then own it. (syndicalism, remember?) You would then be part owner of a building. Your landlord would be the manager of this building, and possibly part owner as well (if he has an apartment in the building). You (yourself and the other tenants) could, of course, hire another manager, if this one isn't to your liking.

I see, so we start by redistributing all property to its current occupiers. Land to the tiller style, like a good developmental state, like the US in Hawaii or Maoist China.
The plan is to take over and expropriate property owners. Good plan.

Then once the initial expropriation is done with, we open up the parks, oceans, and stuff for homesteading.

Now people can build up new fortunes (or otherwise) in a stateless society.

Oh, but you are getting soooo close!
You're only missing one word. Let me repeat your post, with that word added, and the extra crap removed:

I see, so we start by redistributing all state property to its current occupiers. Land to the tiller style.
The plan is to take over and expropriate state property. Good plan.

Then once the initial expropriation is done with, we open up the parks, oceans, and stuff for homesteading.

Now people can build up new fortunes (or otherwise) in a stateless society.

There we go!

I thought I got to own my apartment now  . Are you saying that the landlord gets it?  

It is okay. I am moving to a more luxurious apartment that is directly owned by the state in December.  

The state owns the vast majority of the wealth in my society. They run a budget surplus every year to finance state wealth accumulation. They hold the nation's assets in trust for future generations. Any wealth left over goes to private owners like the dictator's nieces, nephews, and in-laws. I am pretty happy with how wealth is distributed except the stuff that goes to those private owners (all due to nepotism).

I don't think addition of the adjective "state" changes much in my context. You are welcome to throw it in if it makes you feel better, but if the state owns all land there is not much 'private'  property left to keep sacrosanct. And the 'private' property is the most vicious stuff of all. It is the first stuff that should be seized and redistributed. It is what causes the dictator's democracy problem.

[myrkul]

I don't think addition of the adjective "state" changes much in my context. You are welcome to throw it in if it makes you feel better, but if the state owns all land there is not much 'private'  property left to keep sacrosanct.

This is true. I'm sorry to hear of your slavery.

[cunicula]

This is true. I'm sorry to hear of your slavery.

Somehow I feel that your optimism comes from living in a free society with a limited state. Thus you can have a free and wide-ranging imagination with no fear. When you live in a place like mine imagination is tempered by realism.

You have no capital thought crimes in your country I expect? For example, if I "imagine" injury to the dictator, that is a capital offence.
I suspect you have freedom of assembly. Sadly, private political gatherings of three or more in my country are illegal if they include foreigners.
I suspect you have freedom of speech. If I speak ill of the state that is called libel. My property will be taken and I will be bankrupt. As a bankrupt, I lose my freedom to emigrate until I discharge my debt to the state.
By custom, all references to my person would read, "Cunicula, an undischarged bankrupt,". The state owns all media of course, through its joint-stock companies. Bankrupts are said to be always committing thefts and  murders. As criminals, they are barred from politics and state employment. Bankruptcy is a great mark of shame in my uber-capitalist country.

Perhaps if you lived in a truly statist society like my own you would come to appreciate your country's leaders.

[augustocroppo]

Nope, it is an arrangement of things. An arrangement of things is not a thing itself. If I draw a set of lines in the sand, and you draw an identical set of lines in the sand, have you stolen from me? You've copied my pattern, my information. And you did so without my permission. It could be argued that simply by looking at the pattern, you're making a copy, inside your own mind. If information is property, I demand that you forget my works! Give me back my property!

If an arrangement of things is not a thing itself, what is? Nothing itself?

If a "set of lines in the sand" is nothing, what is?

If I draw a set of lines in the sand, and you draw an identical set of lines in the sand, have you stolen from me? You've copied my pattern, my information. And you did so without my permission.

No, I did not stolen from you. The information is in your brain, not in the "lines in the sand".

It could be argued that simply by looking at the pattern, you're making a copy, inside your own mind. If information is property, I demand that you forget my works! Give me back my property!

It could, but that is not the definition of ownership. Moreover, the pattern recorded in my memory is different of the pattern you recorded in your memory. Merely look at "lines in the sand" is not equivalent to own the same information. Two or more observer always will perceive the "lines in the sand" at the same time from a different perspective.

[myrkul]

This is true. I'm sorry to hear of your slavery.

Somehow I feel that your optimism comes from living in a free society with a limited state. Thus you can have a free and wide-ranging imagination with no fear.

And yet, you do not yearn for freedom... In fact, you attempt to shoot down any talk of liberty. I can only assume that it is your job to do so. I strongly suggest you leave your country.

Nope, it is an arrangement of things. An arrangement of things is not a thing itself.

If an arrangement of things is not a thing itself, what is? Nothing itself?

If a "set of lines in the sand" is nothing, what is?

Since these questions make no sense as written, I'm guessing they were meant to be written:

If an arrangement of things is not a thing itself, what is it? Nothing itself?

If a "set of lines in the sand" is not nothing, what is it?

I told you. It's a pattern. An idea. Information.

If I draw a set of lines in the sand, and you draw an identical set of lines in the sand, have you stolen from me? You've copied my pattern, my information. And you did so without my permission.

No, I did not stolen from you. The information is in your brain, not in the "lines in the sand".

Then how did it get into your brain? How did you make that same pattern? Are you a telepath? Are you snooping around in my head?

Let me help you out: The information is in my head, the lines I drew in the sand, your head, and the lines you drew in the sand, all at the same time. Information is not property, and copying is not theft.

It could be argued that simply by looking at the pattern, you're making a copy, inside your own mind. If information is property, I demand that you forget my works! Give me back my property!

It could, but that is not the definition of ownership. Moreover, the pattern recorded in my memory is different of the pattern you recorded in your memory. Merely look at "lines in the sand" is not equivalent to own the same information. Two or more observer always will perceive the "lines in the sand" at the same time from a different perspective.

If the pattern in your memory is different from the pattern in my memory, how did you produce an identical copy in the sand?

(hint: it's not different)

How is having the same pattern of lines in your mind as I do in mine different from you having the same pattern of letters and numbers (the private key) in your mind and your wife's?

(hint: it's not different)

[JoelKatz]

Nope, it is an arrangement of things. An arrangement of things is not a thing itself. If I draw a set of lines in the sand, and you draw an identical set of lines in the sand, have you stolen from me? You've copied my pattern, my information. And you did so without my permission. It could be argued that simply by looking at the pattern, you're making a copy, inside your own mind. If information is property, I demand that you forget my works! Give me back my property!

It is perfectly reasonable to describe something as theft if society prohibits doing it without paying someone a fee and you do it without paying that fee. For example, say someone owns a museum and charges $10 admission. If you sneak into the museum and look at the exhibits without paying the $10 fee, it is perfectly reasonable and ordinary to say you stole $10 from them.

It is not the information itself that is property but the right to do specific things with the information. There is no reason that can't be property, and that's a perfectly ordinary and reasonable use of the term, just as many other intangible rights can be property. For example, say you mow lawns. I can buy the right to have you mow one average lawn. That right is now my property. Say you own a timeshare. I can buy, and have as my property, the right to occupy that timeshare during August.

Nobody else has any other problem with intangible rights being property. This is just a manufactured confusion with intellectual property rights.

[myrkul]

Nope, it is an arrangement of things. An arrangement of things is not a thing itself. If I draw a set of lines in the sand, and you draw an identical set of lines in the sand, have you stolen from me? You've copied my pattern, my information. And you did so without my permission. It could be argued that simply by looking at the pattern, you're making a copy, inside your own mind. If information is property, I demand that you forget my works! Give me back my property!

It is perfectly reasonable to describe something as theft if society prohibits doing it without paying someone a fee and you do it without paying that fee. For example, say someone owns a museum and charges $10 admission. If you sneak into the museum and look at the exhibits without paying the $10 fee, it is perfectly reasonable and ordinary to say you stole $10 from them.

I think you mean "trespassing."

It is not the information itself that is property but the right to do specific things with the information. There is no reason that can't be property, and that's a perfectly ordinary and reasonable use of the term, just as many other intangible rights can be property. For example, say you mow lawns. I can buy the right to have you mow one average lawn. That right is now my property. Say you own a timeshare. I can buy, and have as my property, the right to occupy that timeshare during August.

You can rent my services as a lawn mower. This is not ownership. Timesharing is a specific type of joint ownership. Nothing intangible about it.

[myrkul]

This is true. I'm sorry to hear of your slavery.

Somehow I feel that your optimism comes from living in a free society with a limited state. Thus you can have a free and wide-ranging imagination with no fear.

And yet, you do not yearn for freedom... In fact, you attempt to shoot down any talk of liberty. I can only assume that it is your job to do so. I strongly suggest you leave your country.

Is that what you call it? "Freedom"? What you so stubbornly advocate is just another path to despotism. Why do you think they call revolutions, revolutions? Because it sounds nifty? No. It's because the status quo turns full-circle, not just 180 degrees as you so desperately wish it to be. Otherwise they would'ce called them U-turns.

But that's OK, keep shouting about freedom and liberty from that dark prison of your mindset...

What makes you think what I want is a revolution? I want an evolution.

(If you're wondering why I always seem to have an answer, it's because I've heard all this bullshit before. You're none of you treading ground that hasn't been stomped flat by much better debaters than yourselves.)

[cunicula]

This is true. I'm sorry to hear of your slavery.

Somehow I feel that your optimism comes from living in a free society with a limited state. Thus you can have a free and wide-ranging imagination with no fear.

And yet, you do not yearn for freedom... In fact, you attempt to shoot down any talk of liberty. I can only assume that it is your job to do so. I strongly suggest you leave your country.

I will move if I find a comparatively remunerative occupation in a more attractive location. For now, the capitalist totalitarian state pays high wages, has good working conditions, a low cost of living, and is extremely safe.

I care about the health and material welfare of my family. Their "liberty", as you call it, is not a big concern.

[myrkul]

regarding your rejection of intellectual property rights and your claim that copying is not theft. Does that include private personal information? No no! We can't allow people to keep their personal info private. That would be a monopoly! Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Anything you don't want public... maybe don't publish it? Don't give it to people who haven't agreed to keep it private.

[Rudd-O]

Somehow I feel that your optimism comes from living in a free society with a limited state. Thus you can have a free and wide-ranging imagination with no fear.

And yet, you do not yearn for freedom... In fact, you attempt to shoot down any talk of liberty. I can only assume that it is your job to do so. I strongly suggest you leave your country.

Uncle Tom hates it when people talk about being free, because it reminds him of how unfree he is.

Some people can't hear the truth, and can't stand people who speak it, because it's just too painful to bear.

I'll leave the intro to Stockholm Syndrome here:

Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy, sympathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.[1][2]

Tell me if this doesn't describe the behavior of the angry, petty and abusive people you've been addressing lately.

[myrkul]

This is true. I'm sorry to hear of your slavery.

Somehow I feel that your optimism comes from living in a free society with a limited state. Thus you can have a free and wide-ranging imagination with no fear.

And yet, you do not yearn for freedom... In fact, you attempt to shoot down any talk of liberty. I can only assume that it is your job to do so. I strongly suggest you leave your country.

I will move if I find a comparatively remunerative occupation in a more attractive location. For now, the capitalist totalitarian state pays high wages, has good working conditions, a low cost of living, and is extremely safe.

I care about the health and material welfare of my family. Their "liberty", as you call it, is not a big concern.

Well, as to that, I would suggest Latin American countries. Mexico, in particular, seems to be moving up in the world, as it were.

Out of curiosity, what country do you live in? I don't want to accidentally visit.

[Rudd-O]

Nobody else has any other problem with intangible rights being property.

There is an epistemological clusterfuck with the fragment "intangible rights being property".  It's unparsable for many reasons, so I'll attempt my best to try and parse this broken English.

If you meant that "intangibles can be property", then "Nobody else has any other problem" is false.  I know of at least four different people who "have a problem with" (that is to say, they have come up with refutations of) the belief that intangibles can be property:

1. Hans Hermann Hoppe
2. Stephan Kinsella
3. Wendy McElroy
4. Stefan Molyneux

Your move.

[myrkul]

regarding your rejection of intellectual property rights and your claim that copying is not theft. Does that include private personal information? No no! We can't allow people to keep their personal info private. That would be a monopoly! Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Anything you don't want public... maybe don't publish it? Don't give it to people who haven't agreed to keep it private.

Should I put that one in the "Wild West" pile, together with justice? I'm trying to put together a rule-book to help people navigate that fine line between what is or is not allowed in an AnCap society.

It's hardly a fine line, and you need not write a whole book... it can be summed up in one sentence:
"No person has the right to initiate the use of force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property."
See? Simple.

I understand that personal responsibility can be difficult to grasp for someone who has had their will broken first by their parents and then by the school system, but it's really a simple matter.

[cunicula]

This is true. I'm sorry to hear of your slavery.

Somehow I feel that your optimism comes from living in a free society with a limited state. Thus you can have a free and wide-ranging imagination with no fear.

And yet, you do not yearn for freedom... In fact, you attempt to shoot down any talk of liberty. I can only assume that it is your job to do so. I strongly suggest you leave your country.

I will move if I find a comparatively remunerative occupation in a more attractive location. For now, the capitalist totalitarian state pays high wages, has good working conditions, a low cost of living, and is extremely safe.

I care about the health and material welfare of my family. Their "liberty", as you call it, is not a big concern.

Well, as to that, I would suggest Latin American countries. Mexico, in particular, seems to be moving up in the world, as it were.

Out of curiosity, what country do you live in? I don't want to accidentally visit.

I'll give you some hints.  My country has the highest number of millionaires per capita in the world and the highest per capita income in the world.
The sovereign wealth fund has almost US$100k per citizen for what they call the state calls its 'rainy day fund.'

Here are some additional hints. When boys misbehave in school. They receive strokes of the cane from the 'discipline master.' Our children lead the world in test scores.

Some call it a "libertarian paradise."

After all, we have minimal taxes and the rate of taxation is the best measure of state authority. Taxation is theft, remember? Your state steals more from you, so you are deeper in slavery than I am.

[MoonShadow]

Out of curiosity, what country do you live in? I don't want to accidentally visit.

I'll give you some hints.  My country has the highest number of millionaires per capita in the world and the highest per capita income in the world.
The sovereign wealth fund has almost US$100k per citizen for what they call the state calls its 'rainy day fund.'

Here are some additional hints. When boys misbehave in school. They receive strokes of the cane from the 'discipline master.' Our children lead the world in test scores.

Some call it a "libertarian paradise." After all, we have minimal taxes and the rate of taxation is the best measure of state authority. Taxation is theft, remember. They steal more from you, so you are deeper in slavery than I am.

Dubai?

[cunicula]

Out of curiosity, what country do you live in? I don't want to accidentally visit.

I'll give you some hints.  My country has the highest number of millionaires per capita in the world and the highest per capita income in the world.
The sovereign wealth fund has almost US$100k per citizen for what they call the state calls its 'rainy day fund.'

Here are some additional hints. When boys misbehave in school. They receive strokes of the cane from the 'discipline master.' Our children lead the world in test scores.

Some call it a "libertarian paradise." After all, we have minimal taxes and the rate of taxation is the best measure of state authority. Taxation is theft, remember. They steal more from you, so you are deeper in slavery than I am.

Dubai?

Very close. You used up your guess, let someone else try. Does this mean gollum gets to keep his precious?

[myrkul]

This is true. I'm sorry to hear of your slavery.

Somehow I feel that your optimism comes from living in a free society with a limited state. Thus you can have a free and wide-ranging imagination with no fear.

And yet, you do not yearn for freedom... In fact, you attempt to shoot down any talk of liberty. I can only assume that it is your job to do so. I strongly suggest you leave your country.

I will move if I find a comparatively remunerative occupation in a more attractive location. For now, the capitalist totalitarian state pays high wages, has good working conditions, a low cost of living, and is extremely safe.

I care about the health and material welfare of my family. Their "liberty", as you call it, is not a big concern.

Well, as to that, I would suggest Latin American countries. Mexico, in particular, seems to be moving up in the world, as it were.

Out of curiosity, what country do you live in? I don't want to accidentally visit.

I'll give you some hints.  My country has the highest number of millionaires per capita in the world and the highest per capita income in the world.
The sovereign wealth fund has almost US$100k per citizen for what they call the state calls its 'rainy day fund.'

Here are some additional hints. When boys misbehave in school. They receive strokes of the cane from the 'discipline master.' Our children lead the world in test scores.

Some call it a "libertarian paradise." After all, we have minimal taxes and the rate of taxation is the best measure of state authority. Taxation is theft, remember? They steal more from you, so you are deeper in slavery than I am.

Let me guess, The Republic of Wadiya?

[cunicula]

Let me guess, The Republic of Wadiya?

Hmm... No, this is a real state.