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Author Topic: My 2 wallet idea.  (Read 2140 times)
anaalius (OP)
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November 24, 2012, 04:57:51 AM
 #1

Is it stupid of me to consider having 2 wallets, one for saving bitcoins which i wont touch and one to use for various spending.

My current idea is to have a wallet on the QT client. and one on blockchain.

I would use the block chain as say a savings account and use the QT wallet for general spending and buying BTC.

Sounds like a good idea or ?
anaalius (OP)
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November 24, 2012, 01:12:08 PM
 #2

Thanks , thats the kind of info i was looking for.
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November 24, 2012, 03:49:05 PM
 #3

That helps me too .  Thank you.

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November 24, 2012, 03:50:26 PM
 #4

I have something like that: I use paper wallets.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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November 24, 2012, 03:53:40 PM
 #5

I have something like that: I use paper wallets.

same here Smiley papercoins are a great way to keep your btc safe. physical coins btc from casascius are even better :p
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November 24, 2012, 08:57:42 PM
Last edit: November 24, 2012, 11:09:31 PM by prezbo
 #6

Paper wallet(s) or offline generated encrypted private key(s) get my vote as "savings wallet".
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November 24, 2012, 11:05:00 PM
 #7

Thanks,interesting info.
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November 25, 2012, 10:06:27 AM
 #8

Interesting. What sort of split do you all have?
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November 25, 2012, 06:35:33 PM
 #9

Interesting. What sort of split do you all have?

100% paper 0% online

I use a barcode scanner to make it super easy to move coins between both worlds.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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November 25, 2012, 07:54:44 PM
 #10

I don't see the benefit of having a paper wallet.

Is there any advantage of a paper wallet over an encrypted one that you can simply backup on multiple locations (both home and online/remote) ?

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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November 25, 2012, 08:23:48 PM
 #11

I don't see the benefit of having a paper wallet.

Is there any advantage of a paper wallet over an encrypted one that you can simply backup on multiple locations (both home and online/remote) ?

With a barcode scanner they are much more user-friendly.
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November 25, 2012, 08:44:22 PM
 #12

I don't see the benefit of having a paper wallet.

Is there any advantage of a paper wallet over an encrypted one that you can simply backup on multiple locations (both home and online/remote) ?


1. Everyone says they back up religiously, but far fewer actually do.
2. Hackers might still crack your encryption if your password isn't strong enough or gets keylogged.
3. With paper wallets it's easy to divide your stash into 10 parts, and if you have an accident or discover you're hacked and getting stolen from, the amount you risk losing is cut by ten.
4. If you die, probably no one will look for or find your backup and know how to decrypt it.  But your paper wallet, if it looks valuable and is somewhere where it will be found by family, it will probably be well taken care of, and they will have far less difficulty finding out how many BTC you had and what it's worth.  Even if you have 10 BTC, you'll probably be dead a long time, long enough for that to have a chance of appreciating to some serious value worth not losing.
5. Paper wallets are good for giving bitcoins to people who know nothing about bitcoin client software.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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November 25, 2012, 10:01:17 PM
 #13

With a barcode scanner they are much more user-friendly.
How is that?

With a barcode scanner (I don't have one of those, actually, and I guess most people don't) you can easily scan it, to get the data back in your computer... Seems less user-friendly than just keeping the data on your computer in the first place (or simply storing it on a USB flash drive or whatever).

1. Everyone says they back up religiously, but far fewer actually do.
OK, but how does one go about backing up a paper wallet? I wonder how much people actually store it in a safe or place that is guaranteed to be safe in case of fire, flood, theft, hurricane, meteor crash, etc.

And moreover, backing up an encrypted wallet is really a piece of cake. Copy it to a USB flash drive, email it to a few different webmail addresses, and you're done. Doesn't get much easier than that.

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2. Hackers might still crack your encryption if your password isn't strong enough or gets keylogged.
Agree on the password not strong enough risk. Then again it's really easy to use an uncrackable password. Imho much easier than keeping a paper wallet safe from theft / unauthrized access.

Keylogger: they'd need the actual wallet as well, not just the password. And if Bitcoin-specific malware is a risk, then generating a paper wallet ain't safe either.

By the way, note that if you're storing a savings wallet, you will never need to enter the password until you actually need to spend it (just like you never need to scan the paper wallet until you actually spend it).

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3. With paper wallets it's easy to divide your stash into 10 parts, and if you have an accident or discover you're hacked and getting stolen from, the amount you risk losing is cut by ten.
Do you mean printing 10 different paper wallets / private keys?

Isn't that just as easy (except less mess with physical pieces of paper) with digital wallets?

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4. If you die, probably no one will look for or find your backup and know how to decrypt it.  But your paper wallet, if it looks valuable and is somewhere where it will be found by family, it will probably be well taken care of, and they will have far less difficulty finding out how many BTC you had and what it's worth.  Even if you have 10 BTC, you'll probably be dead a long time, long enough for that to have a chance of appreciating to some serious value worth not losing.
True. Well there are workarounds for that but I guess they're more complicated than leaving a piece of paper (although I do feel that the paper variant is less safe).

Note that secret sharing applies perfectly to encrypted wallets, and offers some nice possibilities to divide (the key to) your inheritance amongst multiple people without the risk of some of them turning against the others and running with your stash.

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5. Paper wallets are good for giving bitcoins to people who know nothing about bitcoin client software.
Eventually they're gonna need some form of client to actually spend the coins or cash out (could also be an online wallet of some sort), right?

And besides, instead of an encrypted wallet, you can of course also use an encrypted archive (a simple 7zip or rar or anything that used AES) with some private keys in it. Seems the same to me, except they don't need to scan stuff or enter long numbers manually.


Anyway, I don't want to fanatically preach against paper wallets or anything, and I guess there is an audience for it. However if you know what you're doing, I'm really convinced that digital wallets are easier, safer, and more flexible. Let's say I just hope anyone who is serious about keeping their coins safe, will consider the actual pros and cons of either method to choose what's best for them.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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November 25, 2012, 10:45:56 PM
 #14

With a barcode scanner ... Seems less user-friendly than just keeping the data on your computer in the first place (or simply storing it on a USB flash drive or whatever).

...which is where hackers and malware can get it, the part you're trying to avoid.

...or go ahead and use a USB flash drive, this would work just fine.

OK, but how does one go about backing up a paper wallet? I wonder how much people actually store it in a safe or place that is guaranteed to be safe in case of fire, flood, theft, hurricane, meteor crash, etc.

Back it up by copying it.  Like, photocopy it.  Something Grandma can understand.

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Keylogger: they'd need the actual wallet as well, not just the password. And if Bitcoin-specific malware is a risk, then generating a paper wallet ain't safe either.

Consider the following: typical malware is more likely to try to intercept your keystrokes and your bitcoin wallet, than it is to try and intercept your print jobs.

If I produce paper wallets, I format a new hard drive, install a new OS, do my printing, and then wipe the drive.  (I realize that's overkill and impractical for most users, but is a necessary level of security for e.g. Casascius Coins)

Meanwhile, I hear this concern, and am pushing for improvements to overcome that.  One thing I came up with is a two-part encrypted private key generator.  You encrypt your passphrase into an "intermediate" code, and then with that, someone/something else can produce paper wallets encrypted with your passphrase, without ever knowing the passphrase or being able to redeem the funds!  The intermediate code cannot feasibly be turned back into the original passphrase.  I have proposed this as BIP 0038, and have published a working proof of concept for Windows.  I am hoping others like the implementation and consider it worthy to put in Bitcoin clients themselves.

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3. With paper wallets it's easy to divide your stash into 10 parts, and if you have an accident or discover you're hacked and getting stolen from, the amount you risk losing is cut by ten.
Do you mean printing 10 different paper wallets / private keys?

Isn't that just as easy (except less mess with physical pieces of paper) with digital wallets?

Sure yeah, go get 10 USB flash drives and make 10 digital wallets.  It would work much the same.  Bitcoin-qt makes it a pain in the ass to maintain more than one digital wallet, but I'm sure it won't be this way forever.

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4. If you die, probably no one will look for or find your backup and know how to decrypt it.  But your paper wallet, if it looks valuable and is somewhere where it will be found by family, it will probably be well taken care of, and they will have far less difficulty finding out how many BTC you had and what it's worth.  Even if you have 10 BTC, you'll probably be dead a long time, long enough for that to have a chance of appreciating to some serious value worth not losing.
True. Well there are workarounds for that but I guess they're more complicated than leaving a piece of paper (although I do feel that the paper variant is less safe).

Yep, I've thought the same thing you have.  This is why BIP 0038... two-factor password-protected paper wallets.  My utility also has a rudimentary but functioning implementation of secret-sharing, to allow for up to 8 factors, and you pick how many factors are needed to decrypt (as few as 2, as many as all)... this isn't part of the BIP and will probably need work to be called "world class", but it definitely works.  Perhaps if we see BIP 0038 widely adopted, it can be expanded to include this functionality so redemption is commonplace instead of requiring an obscure utility to decrypt.

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5. Paper wallets are good for giving bitcoins to people who know nothing about bitcoin client software.
Eventually they're gonna need some form of client to actually spend the coins or cash out (could also be an online wallet of some sort), right?

No.  They could call up FastCash4Bitcoins and say "I've got one of these here paper wallets, if I read you the code, will you send me the cash".  I don't know that they'd be interested in doing that for small amounts, but if it's a large amount I can't imagine them saying no.

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Anyway, I don't want to fanatically preach against paper wallets or anything, and I guess there is an audience for it. However if you know what you're doing, I'm really convinced that digital wallets are easier, safer, and more flexible. Let's say I just hope anyone who is serious about keeping their coins safe, will consider the actual pros and cons of either method to choose what's best for them.

I agree - paper wallets are convenient when you have a barcode scanner, and less convenient when you don't.  USB drives have much the same benefits - to each their own in terms of what tradeoffs they want.  What matters is that the coins are offline.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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November 26, 2012, 04:57:21 AM
 #15

Paper wallets seem also attractive for snail mail relay of purchased BTC.

If I understand postal law correctly -- at least US postal law -- the sender can have a better way of tracking the transaction (registered/certified mail). I realize this is considerably slower than standard digital transfer and kinda negates one of the advantages of Bitcoin -- (near) instant transfer -- but it seems to take advantage of some existing legal recourse by partaking of some court-admissible actions.

Thoughts?
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November 26, 2012, 05:32:56 AM
 #16

Is there any advantage of a paper wallet over an encrypted one that you can simply backup on multiple locations (both home and online/remote) ?

A paper wallet for which the private key has never been put online will always be more secure. The difference in probability that a wallet might be compromised may be exceedingly small for an encrypted online wallet vs. a paper wallet, but it's still there.

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November 26, 2012, 05:50:19 AM
 #17

With a barcode scanner they are much more user-friendly.
How is that?

With a barcode scanner (I don't have one of those, actually, and I guess most people don't) you can easily scan it, to get the data back in your computer... Seems less user-friendly than just keeping the data on your computer in the first place (or simply storing it on a USB flash drive or whatever).

Most people don't have dedicated barcode scanners, but smartphones and webcams are fairly common. Software that uses those to read barcodes is readily available.  Before I started using Armory, I ran all of my private keys through a copy of bitaddress.org to generate PDFs with addresses and private keys in plaintext and as QR codes. These are saved to a TrueCrypt volume and printed out.

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November 26, 2012, 08:37:15 AM
 #18

A paper wallet for which the private key has never been put online will always be more secure. The difference in probability that a wallet might be compromised may be exceedingly small for an encrypted online wallet vs. a paper wallet, but it's still there.
True. For this reason, I generated my private keys in a dedicated, offline Ubuntu Live session and stored them in a truecrypt container on a USB flash drive.

Well, except for some spare change which I just keep in my Windows environment wallet, and an online wallet. If they'd get stolen, my loss would be minimal.

For me, this is the best of both worlds: the private keys (or the system / session in which they have been generated) have never ever been online, or even had the theoretical possibility of being sent online by malware. Yet I still have the benefit of keeping it digital: trivial to backup, very secure (because of truecrypt), easy storage at different locations (both at my home and remote/online), etc.

I actually doubt how many people who use paper wallets, have created this wallet in a completely secure (i.e. offline) environment?

Most people don't have dedicated barcode scanners, but smartphones and webcams are fairly common. Software that uses those to read barcodes is readily available.
Oh right, true Smiley yeah they're common.

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Before I started using Armory, I ran all of my private keys through a copy of bitaddress.org to generate PDFs with addresses and private keys in plaintext and as QR codes. These are saved to a TrueCrypt volume and printed out.
Same here! I did pretty much the same thing. Except for the printing out part Smiley

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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December 03, 2012, 06:10:31 AM
 #19

Is it stupid of me to consider having 2 wallets, one for saving bitcoins which i wont touch and one to use for various spending.

Not stupid at all.  I recently swept all of my funds to a freshly-generated paper wallet. Spending from it is a matter of scanning or keying the private key into blockchain.info as needed.

(As an aside, if you have lots of small transactions to consolidate into your paper wallet, you might want to look at CheapSweep to keep transaction fees in check: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128388.0)

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