Bitcoin and Greenpeace

[bg002h]

Whatever your feelings are for Greenpeace, I think most would agree these folks have chutzpah...my guess is that they would support Bitcoin. Anyone a member? Has Bitpay been in touch?

[Stephen Gornick]

Whatever your feelings are for Greenpeace, I think most would agree these folks have chutzpah...my guess is that they would support Bitcoin. Anyone a member? Has Bitpay been in touch?

The challenge is in getting past how Bitcoin mining consumes a fair amount of electricity.  Maybe with the efficiency of ASIC this will temper that argument for a while.

[ThomasV]

Whatever your feelings are for Greenpeace, I think most would agree these folks have chutzpah...my guess is that they would support Bitcoin. Anyone a member? Has Bitpay been in touch?

The challenge is in getting past how Bitcoin mining consumes a fair amount of electricity.  Maybe with the efficiency of ASIC this will temper that argument for a while.

1. Competition will always drive miners to dissipate a large fraction of the block reward in electricity. Efficiency gains are only short term.
2. Bitcoin is more energy efficient than cash, vaults and armored cars driving around everywhere.

[cunicula]

1. Competition will always drive miners to dissipate a large fraction of the block reward in electricity. Efficiency gains are only short term.

Long-run Electricity usage depends on the ratio of electricity use to hardware costs. Decreasing this ratio saves electricity (though it does not affect waste overall). You are just replace wasteful electiricty use with wasteful R&D and hardware production. PoW will remain a complete waste regardless of whether that waste occurs via electricity or otherwise.

Nevertheless, you are wrong to suggest that electricity savings are only short-term.

A Minirig SC supposedly yields 50 Mhash/s per $ and 1000 Mhash per joule. The ratio is 200 Joules/s per $ of capital expenditure.

A 5970 yields 1.67 Mhash/s per $ and 2.2 Mhash per joule. The ratio is 1.3 Joules/s per $ of capital expenditure.

As you can see the minirig supposedly has made tremendous progress reducing electricity use, but much less progress in reducing capital costs.

This means that ASIC technology is biased towards energy saving. The long-run competitive equilibrium will feature a quite large reduction in direct electricity use via mining. Perhaps 10-fold.
By contrast, capital expenditure will increase dramatically. This will help to price small miners out of the market. Purchase a mini-rig if they exist, or go home.

I'm too lazy to do all the math at the moment. It is hard to find motivation in a failed technology. Question me further if you want to see exact calculations.

2. Bitcoin is more energy efficient than cash, vaults and armored cars driving around everywhere.

Show math supporting your claim. Currently, bitcoin is orders of magnitude more wasteful than other payment technologies. Here is a reference: http://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=can%20we%20afford%20proof%20of%20work&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweis2012.econinfosec.org%2Fpresentation%2FBreuker_presentation_WEIS2012.pdf&ei=ooWwUMzuL8PorAf7tIHYCg&usg=AFQjCNHVP4mza5SJp6E3amVUszxrFR9A2Q. Future circumstances are speculative.

[Lethn]

While I think it would be good to see political groups become more open minded to Bitcoin groups like Greenpeace make me want to repeatedly bash my head in with a blunt object.

[Realpra]

Once the block reward is gone, or even just lowered short-term, mining should go towards a minimum as people choose as low fees as they can while maintaining speed and security on the network.

Bitcoin is far from a failed technology.

[cunicula]

Once the block reward is gone, or even just lowered short-term, mining should go towards a minimum as people choose as low fees as they can while maintaining speed and security on the network.

Are you going to be running the network. Why does what you think 'should' happen have any relevance to what will happen?

[Realpra]

Once the block reward is gone, or even just lowered short-term, mining should go towards a minimum as people choose as low fees as they can while maintaining speed and security on the network.

Are you going to be running the network. Why does what you think 'should' happen have any relevance to what will happen?

I am usually right, you should try it some day

I would explain my logic, but I doubt a guy with a hundred ignores or so would understand or want to.

[uncaer9]

Greenpeace (at least in Poland) does nothing but blocks valuable investments(of course they "change their mind" if the investor makes donation) and makes anti-nuclear propaganda.

[Littleshop]

Greenpeace (at least in Poland) does nothing but blocks valuable investments(of course they "change their mind" if the investor makes donation) and makes anti-nuclear propaganda.

I consider myself an environmentalist and I do not like GreenPeace.  They have managed to block/slow down and even work to close nuclear plants all over the world.  In exchange we get more coal plants.  Nice going GreenPleace. 

[J-Norm]

I consider myself an environmentalist and I do not like GreenPeace.  They have managed to block/slow down and even work to close nuclear plants all over the world.  In exchange we get more coal plants.  Nice going GreenPleace.  

This.

Most people don't know that coal mining/burning releases far more radiation per watt of power into the air than nuclear power does. A little thing called radon gas getting released from the coal.

Coal mining also kills more people per watt of power than nuclear power does.

This is taking into account all of the accidents too which are reducing in number and severity with newer reactors.

France is doing a great job producing over 80% of their power with nuclear and they are doing great.

Just goes to show how much damage you can cause mixing good intentions with ignorance.

[justusranvier]

France is doing a great job producing over 80% of their power with nuclear and they are doing great.

Just goes to show how much damage you can cause mixing good intentions with ignorance.

They are doing fine with archaic nuclear technology. Imagine what they could do with a "modern" (developed in the 1970s) reactor design like LFTR.

[J-Norm]

France is doing a great job producing over 80% of their power with nuclear and they are doing great.

Just goes to show how much damage you can cause mixing good intentions with ignorance.

They are doing fine with archaic nuclear technology. Imagine what they could do with a "modern" (developed in the 1970s) reactor design like LFTR.

This is true. Nuclear power's benefit of causing less death and releasing less radiation than coal per watt is only going to improve as the newer generation of plants replace the old ones.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Greenpeace lie, deceive, spread misinformation and routinely recruit vulnerable, malleable youth who don't know better to break the law. Why would anybody want to associate with them these days is beyond me.

[cunicula]

Greenpeace lie, deceive, spread misinformation and routinely recruit vulnerable, malleable youth who don't know better to break the law. Why would anybody want to associate with them these days is beyond me.

By 'break the law', Are you referring to Natural Law or State Law?

[marcus_of_augustus]

Greenpeace lie, deceive, spread misinformation and routinely recruit vulnerable, malleable youth who don't know better to break the law. Why would anybody want to associate with them these days is beyond me.

By 'break the law', Are you referring to Natural Law or State Law?

Mostly the body of Common Law surrounding the sanctity of private property; you know like breaking and entering, defacing buildings, vandalism, denying right of entry ... have you not noticed Greenpeace was doing these things?

[cunicula]

Greenpeace lie, deceive, spread misinformation and routinely recruit vulnerable, malleable youth who don't know better to break the law. Why would anybody want to associate with them these days is beyond me.

By 'break the law', Are you referring to Natural Law or State Law?

Mostly the body of Common Law surrounding the sanctity of private property; you know like breaking and entering, defacing buildings, vandalism, denying right of entry ... have you not noticed Greenpeace was doing these things?

Okay, so State Law. I agree with you.

I'm not a fan of Greenpeace either. They are like libertarians. They live in some world where there is Natural Law (e.g. Nuclear power is bad because it is against nature). In my opinion, Nuclear (expected death rate low; variance extremely high) much better than Coal (expected death rate high; variance very low).

[istar]

Greenpeace lie, deceive, spread misinformation and routinely recruit vulnerable, malleable youth who don't know better to break the law. Why would anybody want to associate with them these days is beyond me.

By 'break the law', Are you referring to Natural Law or State Law?

Mostly the body of Common Law surrounding the sanctity of private property; you know like breaking and entering, defacing buildings, vandalism, denying right of entry ... have you not noticed Greenpeace was doing these things?

Quite horrible. They have the nerve to show how easy it is to break into powerplants, and to risc their lifes to protect endangered species.
The even have the nerve to do dangerous things like chaining themselves to a rooftop. Horrible.

We would be much better of if everybode just did exactly as they were told caused it was written in the law.

If even half of these are true...
http://www.jimella.me.uk/laws01.cfm

Court ruled greenpeace were justified in breaking the "law".
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/Blogs/makingwaves/court-rules-activists-were-justified-in-break/blog/38731/


This is why we should not have a single powerplant.

Watch this in fullhd on fullscreen. Its a video of all know asteriods to this day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_d-gs0WoUw

And we have placed powerplants all over the earth.
One powerplant meltdown that can´t be stopped is enough to render half the earth inhabitable for hundreds of years.

Or when a tsunami hits US East Costs or a earthquake happens and it will, and you have placed "safe" powerplants on got damn Earthquake lines and along the coast (morons).

Just like the morons who placed the fukushima nuclear below the tsunami warning signs.
And people think its safe because people did not die at once...

US East Coast Faces Variety of Tsunami Threats
http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/3774-east-coast-tsunamis.html

Tsunami can also come from an asteroid going into the ocean.

People die in 5-15 years as they eat food that is contaminated and the tiny radioactive substances and particles are picked up and stays in the human tissue.
They die from heart diseases etc, not just cancer.

40% of the fish caught in japan is now not edible.

What do you think a poor fisherman does with some of the fish they caught...
Next time you eat fish and ships, the fish you just had might had been swimming through that contaminated pacific ocean.
If there is a small text on the fishsticks that says from caught in Area 61.
 
This is what that means:
http://www.fao.org/fishery/area/Area61/en

Now watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eh4nBVJTsw&feature=player_embedded

Done by these:
http://www.asrltd.com/japan/plume.php

And it can all go even worse. Reactor no4 contains tons of superdeadly nuclearwaste. Nuclearwaste is more deadly.
http://www.naturalnews.com/035789_Fukushima_Cesium-137_Plume-Gate.html

And now the reactor no4 is sinking into the ground. So it can collapse.

And you think its over?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFoVUNApOg8&feature=related

Here is what happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpWOeKk1GUo&feature=related






 

[zvs]

 

[Ente]

Thank you, istar.
Not everything is lost on bitcointalk..
Most of the people here arguing with "statistics" and "variance" and "secure" have no fkn clue what they are talking about.
I could go on for hours about what other necessary things greenpeace do, what other problems there are with nuclear power, and what the real alternatives to coal are.
I will safe my breath and just say:
Yes, greenpeace accepting bitcoins would be nice.

Ente