national minimum wage LAWS. good or bad?

[hazek]

I agree with the latter two points, but how does a low fixed price lead to higher prices?

MAXIMUM wage is fixed up, not down. If employers are forced to EARN more what that job is worth, they'll transfer that cost onto the consumer -> higher prices.

FTFY.

Actually I did make a mistake but you didn't fix it. It should have said:

I agree with the latter two points, but how does a low fixed price lead to higher prices?

Minimum wage is fixed down, not up(it should be lower but isn't allowed). If employers are forced to pay more what that job is worth, they'll transfer that cost onto the consumer -> higher prices.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fixed down." Minimum wages are supposed to reflect a living wage (which they currently don't) and force employers to make business choices that reflect market reality.

It means wages can't be any lower than what the minimum wage forces employers to pay even if the employers determines that it's more than what the job is worth. So if he has to pay more than what it's worth, he has two options, either fire/not hire the employee or to raise the price of his goods and services to make it worth that job ergo higher prices.

[cbeast]

I agree with the latter two points, but how does a low fixed price lead to higher prices?

MAXIMUM wage is fixed up, not down. If employers are forced to EARN more what that job is worth, they'll transfer that cost onto the consumer -> higher prices.

FTFY.

Actually I did make a mistake but you didn't fix it. It should have said:

I agree with the latter two points, but how does a low fixed price lead to higher prices?

Minimum wage is fixed down, not up(it should be lower but isn't allowed). If employers are forced to pay more what that job is worth, they'll transfer that cost onto the consumer -> higher prices.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fixed down." Minimum wages are supposed to reflect a living wage (which they currently don't) and force employers to make business choices that reflect market reality.

It means wages can't be any lower than what the minimum wage forces employers to pay even if the employers determines that it's more than what the job is worth. So if he has to pay more than what it's worth, he has two options, either fire/not hire the employee or to raise the price of his goods and services to make it worth that job ergo higher prices.

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

[hazek]

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I really want is good outcomes, to maximize my potential more precisely, and I know that just like with food I buy a market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market will yield the best products at the cheapest prices so too I know a market strictly regulated by consumption will yield the best jobs with the highest wages.

[cbeast]

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I really want is good outcomes, to maximize my potential more precisely, and I know that just like with food I buy a market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market will yield the best products at the cheapest prices so too I know a market strictly regulated by consumption will yield the best jobs with the highest wages.

Utter nonsense. The notion of a free market is a myth.

[hazek]

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I really want is good outcomes, to maximize my potential more precisely, and I know that just like with food I buy a market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market will yield the best products at the cheapest prices so too I know a market strictly regulated by consumption will yield the best jobs with the highest wages.

Utter nonsense. The notion of a free market is a myth.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

[cbeast]

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I really want is good outcomes, to maximize my potential more precisely, and I know that just like with food I buy a market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market will yield the best products at the cheapest prices so too I know a market strictly regulated by consumption will yield the best jobs with the highest wages.

Utter nonsense. The notion of a free market is a myth.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Show me evidence of a macro-economic free market and I will show you a market controlled by government regulations.

[hazek]

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I really want is good outcomes, to maximize my potential more precisely, and I know that just like with food I buy a market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market will yield the best products at the cheapest prices so too I know a market strictly regulated by consumption will yield the best jobs with the highest wages.

Utter nonsense. The notion of a free market is a myth.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Show me evidence of a macro-economic free market and I will show you a market controlled by government regulations.

Fallacy: begging the question. Heard of it?

[cbeast]

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I really want is good outcomes, to maximize my potential more precisely, and I know that just like with food I buy a market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market will yield the best products at the cheapest prices so too I know a market strictly regulated by consumption will yield the best jobs with the highest wages.

Utter nonsense. The notion of a free market is a myth.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Show me evidence of a macro-economic free market and I will show you a market controlled by government regulations.

Fallacy: begging the question. Heard of it?

I am not the one trying to prove a negative here. Since you claim a free market exists, do you have any evidence?

[hazek]

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I really want is good outcomes, to maximize my potential more precisely, and I know that just like with food I buy a market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market will yield the best products at the cheapest prices so too I know a market strictly regulated by consumption will yield the best jobs with the highest wages.

Utter nonsense. The notion of a free market is a myth.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Show me evidence of a macro-economic free market and I will show you a market controlled by government regulations.

Fallacy: begging the question. Heard of it?

I am not the one trying to prove a negative here. Since you claim a free market exists, do you have any evidence?

Get back to me once you understand why I said you used that fallacy and where you made your mistake.

[cbeast]

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I really want is good outcomes, to maximize my potential more precisely, and I know that just like with food I buy a market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market will yield the best products at the cheapest prices so too I know a market strictly regulated by consumption will yield the best jobs with the highest wages.

Utter nonsense. The notion of a free market is a myth.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Show me evidence of a macro-economic free market and I will show you a market controlled by government regulations.

Fallacy: begging the question. Heard of it?

I am not the one trying to prove a negative here. Since you claim a free market exists, do you have any evidence?

Get back to me once you understand why I said you used that fallacy and where you made your mistake.

Begging the question is positing an argument without backing it up. I did not profer anything. Calling something a myth is nothing more that expressing skepticism. It is a fugure of speech. I was not implying that it is a grand mythos followed by worshippers.

[hazek]

That's not it.

Let me help you out a bit:

Your argument: A market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market is utter nonsense because it is a myth i.e. there is no macro economic example.

Now go to either of these:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

And figure it out.

[cbeast]

And here I thought you were making a libertarian argument. My bad.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I really want is good outcomes, to maximize my potential more precisely, and I know that just like with food I buy a market regulated strictly by consumption i.e. a free market will yield the best products at the cheapest prices so too I know a market strictly regulated by consumption will yield the best jobs with the highest wages.

Utter nonsense. The notion of a free market is a myth.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Show me evidence of a macro-economic free market and I will show you a market controlled by government regulations.

Fallacy: begging the question. Heard of it?

I am not the one trying to prove a negative here. Since you claim a free market exists, do you have any evidence?

Get back to me once you understand why I said you used that fallacy and where you made your mistake.

Begging the question is positing an argument without backing it up. I did not profer anything. Calling something a myth is nothing more that expressing skepticism. It is a fugure of speech. I was not implying that it is a grand mythos followed by worshippers.

All I'm saying is that a market driven by consumption doesn't exist. I did not say it isn't a good idea. But such a thing does not, and cannot currently exist. Even Bitcoin will not solve that problem. Some future descendant of Bitcoin may do so.

[hazek]

All I'm saying is that a market driven by consumption doesn't exist. I did not say it isn't a good idea.

Oh, how should I have interpreted your "Utter nonsense." comments then?

But such a thing does not, and cannot currently exist.

Again, fallacy: begging the question.

[cbeast]

All I'm saying is that a market driven by consumption doesn't exist. I did not say it isn't a good idea.

Oh, how should I have interpreted your "Utter nonsense." comments then?

But such a thing does not, and cannot currently exist.

Again, fallacy: begging the question.

Perhaps I should have exclaimed Poppycock and Balderdash! Harrumph! You may believe that a free market can exist, but I will not attend your church.

[hazek]

All I'm saying is that a market driven by consumption doesn't exist. I did not say it isn't a good idea.

Oh, how should I have interpreted your "Utter nonsense." comments then?

But such a thing does not, and cannot currently exist.

Again, fallacy: begging the question.

Perhaps I should have exclaimed Poppycock and Balderdash! Harrumph! You may believe that a free market can exist, but I will not attend your church.

Good thing people didn't think like you that there can not be a world without direct slavery just because they didn't know a world where that was ever possible before. 

Are you beginning to see the fallacy?

[cbeast]

All I'm saying is that a market driven by consumption doesn't exist. I did not say it isn't a good idea.

Oh, how should I have interpreted your "Utter nonsense." comments then?

But such a thing does not, and cannot currently exist.

Again, fallacy: begging the question.

Perhaps I should have exclaimed Poppycock and Balderdash! Harrumph! You may believe that a free market can exist, but I will not attend your church.

Good thing people didn't think like you that there can not be a world without direct slavery just because they didn't know a world where that was ever possible before.  

Are you beginning to see the fallacy?

Now who is begging the question? I think the only difference between us in human motivation. I do not believe in markets. I see them as abstract notions inculcated upon children, much like Santa Claus. Slavery is another issue, and that's why god invented gunpowder.

[hazek]

All I'm saying is that a market driven by consumption doesn't exist. I did not say it isn't a good idea.

Oh, how should I have interpreted your "Utter nonsense." comments then?

But such a thing does not, and cannot currently exist.

Again, fallacy: begging the question.

Perhaps I should have exclaimed Poppycock and Balderdash! Harrumph! You may believe that a free market can exist, but I will not attend your church.

Good thing people didn't think like you that there can not be a world without direct slavery just because they didn't know a world where that was ever possible before.  

Are you beginning to see the fallacy?

Now who is begging the question? I think the only difference between us in human motivation. I do not believe in markets. I see them as abstract notions inculcated upon children, much like Santa Claus. Slavery is another issue, and that's why god invented gunpowder.

I'm sorry, from what you're telling me it is my opinion you lack basic comprehension and reasoning skills for us to be able to have a productive discussion and so I'm removing myself from it. Cheerio.

[cbeast]

All I'm saying is that a market driven by consumption doesn't exist. I did not say it isn't a good idea.

Oh, how should I have interpreted your "Utter nonsense." comments then?

But such a thing does not, and cannot currently exist.

Again, fallacy: begging the question.

Perhaps I should have exclaimed Poppycock and Balderdash! Harrumph! You may believe that a free market can exist, but I will not attend your church.

Good thing people didn't think like you that there can not be a world without direct slavery just because they didn't know a world where that was ever possible before.  

Are you beginning to see the fallacy?

Now who is begging the question? I think the only difference between us in human motivation. I do not believe in markets. I see them as abstract notions inculcated upon children, much like Santa Claus. Slavery is another issue, and that's why god invented gunpowder.

I'm sorry, from what you're telling me it is my opinion you lack basic comprehension and reasoning skills for us to be able to have a productive discussion and so I'm removing myself from it. Cheerio.

Yes, I am not able to make inductive arguments based upon assumptions. My bad. Good luck with creating the free market! I'll continue to promote a resource based economy like is used by every family in the world.

[Rudd-O]

Utter nonsense. The notion of a free market is a myth.

I notice a serious lack of actual argument here.

Can you start participating in the conversation like you mean it?  Thanks.

[Rudd-O]

Yes, I am not able to make inductive arguments based upon assumptions.

I agree, so far from my reading of what you've said, you clearly aren't able to do so.

hazek is talking to you about what a free market can accomplish.  You deny what he says simply based on a claim that "a free market is a myth".  If you actually understood argumentation, you would know that your response is entirely nonsequitorial -- it doesn't actually argue anything that disproves what hazek said.  That is to say: you are not even talking with him, you're talking past him.

So, how about responding to the aaaaaaaaaargument? www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLODu02R_gA&feature=youtu.be&t=17m13s