national minimum wage LAWS. good or bad?

[SgtSpike]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

Put another way, it kind of removes the ability for the job seeker to be an idiot and accept a job for which he cannot sustain himself.  But, it would be much better for the free market to determine what this sustainability wage floor should be, instead of the government.  The problem is, the idiots may reduce that wage floor for everyone else, making it more difficult for those who are not idiots to find a job in which he can sustain himself.

you may be missing the point that it is in the interest of some workers to work for a wage that is not high enough to sustain themselves. Imagine a teenager who has all of his needs met by his parents and gains valuable work experience from the low wage job.

A very valid point indeed.  So then, jobs that require little experience and can be worked part-time would be overtaken by teenagers who already have their basic needs met.  They would compete with each other to find an artificial floor, something along the lines of "the wage is more beneficial than the opportunity cost and benefit I could have by participating in other activities".  Maybe $4/hr or something.  I know when I was still in high school, I didn't like work all that much, and the $5.95/hr I was paid in my first job was just barely enough to keep me interested in working instead of doing other activities.

More aged workers who need a higher wage to sustain themselves would have to differentiate themselves from these teenage workers in order to compete.  Experience would be the large factor here, perhaps with ability to work a full-time, non-flexible schedule being a close second.  Those are valuable traits to many companies wishing to hire, traits for which they very well may be willing to pay a significant amount higher to attract non-teenagers to the positions.

[Rassah]

Hey, I have an idea. Instead of putting a price floor on earnings with minimum wage laws, why don't we just put a price floor on all products created with minimum wage labor?

I've got an even better idea. Since we can legislate prosperity just by increasing wages, Let's just set the minimum wage at $1 million/hour, so none of us will have to work more than a few hours every year.

wage implies that someone has to work. Lets just mail 1 infinity dollar bill to every household.

I think you just qualified yourself for the job of FED chairman.

Where's the Zeitgeist Movement cultists? I think it's about the time for their turn to chime in 

[Rudd-O]

Well said, SgtSpike.

It's enlightening to know that current labor restrictions on teenagers and young people in general were actually legislated as political favors to unions and other forms of guild-mentality organizations interested in immunizing themselves from competition.  Of course, these were sold to the public as "Decent wages" and "Protect the children", but the real intention was simply "fuck you, got mine".

It's funny how people who readily use politics to "fuck you got mine", accuse us voluntaryists of being the "fuck you got mine" people.

[Anon136]

Hey, I have an idea. Instead of putting a price floor on earnings with minimum wage laws, why don't we just put a price floor on all products created with minimum wage labor?

I've got an even better idea. Since we can legislate prosperity just by increasing wages, Let's just set the minimum wage at $1 million/hour, so none of us will have to work more than a few hours every year.

wage implies that someone has to work. Lets just mail 1 infinity dollar bill to every household.

I think you just qualified yourself for the job of FED chairman.

assuming i can make sure that these infinity bills make it to some houses just a little bit sooner than other houses, i think you're right!

[firefop]

Did you read the paper I posted? The one about not finding any correlation between wage floors and unemployment rates?

Can you explain why there is no correlation, when the basic law of supply and demand says there should be?

Flawed research.

[FirstAscent]

Did you read the paper I posted? The one about not finding any correlation between wage floors and unemployment rates?

Can you explain why there is no correlation, when the basic law of supply and demand says there should be?

Haven't a number of people opened your eyes to this? I mentioned examples myself regarding the basic supply/demand curve (not necessarily related to minimum wage floors). The basic supply/demand curve doesn't necessarily apply in the real world, where there are other factors. Off the top of my head, it's easy to point out that anything below $8 an hour is just noise (made by screaming libertarians). As I pointed out earlier, I don't see a shortage of Walmart workers in Walmart stores, even at minimum wage levels.

[Rassah]

Did you read the paper I posted? The one about not finding any correlation between wage floors and unemployment rates?

Can you explain why there is no correlation, when the basic law of supply and demand says there should be?

Haven't a number of people opened your eyes to this? I mentioned examples myself regarding the basic supply/demand curve (not necessarily related to minimum wage floors). The basic supply/demand curve doesn't necessarily apply in the real world, where there are other factors. Off the top of my head, it's easy to point out that anything below $8 an hour is just noise (made by screaming libertarians). As I pointed out earlier, I don't see a shortage of Walmart workers in Walmart stores, even at minimum wage levels.

(I definitely see a shortage at my local WalMarts)
So, it's NOT because an increase in minimum wage increases the cost of goods & services, which increases their price, which in turn pushes up the price of everything else, causing a sort-of inflation, and in the end making the minimum wage earners earn (and cost) the same amount of value they have before, even if the numbers on their paychecks increased? Which, while making their purchasing power be basically what it was before, makes everything in the country go up in price, and thus making the country as a whole be less competitive compared to the rest of the world? If these supply/demand factors I mentioned are not it, then what factors are?

[FirstAscent]

Did you read the paper I posted? The one about not finding any correlation between wage floors and unemployment rates?

Can you explain why there is no correlation, when the basic law of supply and demand says there should be?

Haven't a number of people opened your eyes to this? I mentioned examples myself regarding the basic supply/demand curve (not necessarily related to minimum wage floors). The basic supply/demand curve doesn't necessarily apply in the real world, where there are other factors. Off the top of my head, it's easy to point out that anything below $8 an hour is just noise (made by screaming libertarians). As I pointed out earlier, I don't see a shortage of Walmart workers in Walmart stores, even at minimum wage levels.

(I definitely see a shortage at my local WalMarts)
So, it's NOT because an increase in minimum wage increases the cost of goods & services, which increases their price, which in turn pushes up the price of everything else, causing a sort-of inflation, and in the end making the minimum wage earners earn (and cost) the same amount of value they have before, even if the numbers on their paychecks increased? Which, while making their purchasing power be basically what it was before, makes everything in the country go up in price, and thus making the country as a whole be less competitive compared to the rest of the world? If these supply/demand factors I mentioned are not it, then what factors are?

Are you asking me what drives inflation? Marketing which capitalizes on the effects of materialism and the 'me too' crowd. Diminishing natural resources. Increasing population. Printing money. Competition between nations to have the best national defense and security. Technological advances in products which encourage product upgrade cycles.

Also, did you miss my lesson on one instance where the supply/demand curve breaks down? I guess so, considering it would have been inconvenient for you to parse it into all the dogma you digest in favor of your "evolved and higher" belief system.

[Rassah]

Yes I missed your lesson on where supply/demand curves break down. Rather, if you had such a lesson, I didn't see it.

No, I am asking you what the "other factors" you mentioned you knew are making the unemployment rate stay stable despite the cost of labor being increased.

[FirstAscent]

Yes I missed your lesson on where supply/demand curves break down. Rather, if you had such a lesson, I didn't see it.

That's unfortunate.

No, I am asking you what the "other factors" you mentioned you knew are making the unemployment rate stay stable despite the cost of labor being increased.

Perhaps because the minimum wage floor puts enough money in the lowest wage earners' pockets that they can actually become (to a point) effective participants in the economy, which in turn helps drive the economy.

Or perhaps the actual unemployment issues are for the higher wager earners?

[myrkul]

No, I am asking you what the "other factors" you mentioned you knew are making the unemployment rate stay stable despite the cost of labor being increased.

Perhaps because the minimum wage floor puts enough money in the lowest wage earners' pockets that they can actually become (to a point) effective participants in the economy.

Well, then why don't we make minimum wage $25/hour? Then everyone will be well paid enough to become very effective participants in the economy. Why keep the lowest wage-earners just above, poverty? Why not legislate prosperity, instead?

[FirstAscent]

No, I am asking you what the "other factors" you mentioned you knew are making the unemployment rate stay stable despite the cost of labor being increased.

Perhaps because the minimum wage floor puts enough money in the lowest wage earners' pockets that they can actually become (to a point) effective participants in the economy.

Well, then why don't we make minimum wage $25/hour? Then everyone will be well paid enough to become very effective participants in the economy. Why keep the lowest wage-earners just above, poverty? Why not legislate prosperity, instead?

I know you're not actually so stupid as to believe that some thought doesn't go into what the minimum wage floor is. Did you know that $25 an hour might actually cause the problems you believe exist right now? You see, it has been demonstrated that the minimum wage floors don't cause problems. How about that?

[myrkul]

No, I am asking you what the "other factors" you mentioned you knew are making the unemployment rate stay stable despite the cost of labor being increased.

Perhaps because the minimum wage floor puts enough money in the lowest wage earners' pockets that they can actually become (to a point) effective participants in the economy.

Well, then why don't we make minimum wage $25/hour? Then everyone will be well paid enough to become very effective participants in the economy. Why keep the lowest wage-earners just above, poverty? Why not legislate prosperity, instead?

I know you're not actually so stupid as to believe that some thought doesn't go into what the minimum wage floor is. Did you know that $25 an hour might actually cause the problems you believe exist right now? You see, it has been demonstrated that the minimum wage floors don't cause problems. How about that?

Well, if minimum wage floors don't cause problems, why not set them high enough to actually do some good, instead of keeping the poorest people poor?

[FirstAscent]

No, I am asking you what the "other factors" you mentioned you knew are making the unemployment rate stay stable despite the cost of labor being increased.

Perhaps because the minimum wage floor puts enough money in the lowest wage earners' pockets that they can actually become (to a point) effective participants in the economy.

Well, then why don't we make minimum wage $25/hour? Then everyone will be well paid enough to become very effective participants in the economy. Why keep the lowest wage-earners just above, poverty? Why not legislate prosperity, instead?

I know you're not actually so stupid as to believe that some thought doesn't go into what the minimum wage floor is. Did you know that $25 an hour might actually cause the problems you believe exist right now? You see, it has been demonstrated that the minimum wage floors don't cause problems. How about that?

Well, if minimum wage floors don't cause problems, why not set them high enough to actually do some good, instead of keeping the poorest people poor?

There's a balance in everything.

[myrkul]

No, I am asking you what the "other factors" you mentioned you knew are making the unemployment rate stay stable despite the cost of labor being increased.

Perhaps because the minimum wage floor puts enough money in the lowest wage earners' pockets that they can actually become (to a point) effective participants in the economy.

Well, then why don't we make minimum wage $25/hour? Then everyone will be well paid enough to become very effective participants in the economy. Why keep the lowest wage-earners just above, poverty? Why not legislate prosperity, instead?

I know you're not actually so stupid as to believe that some thought doesn't go into what the minimum wage floor is. Did you know that $25 an hour might actually cause the problems you believe exist right now? You see, it has been demonstrated that the minimum wage floors don't cause problems. How about that?

Well, if minimum wage floors don't cause problems, why not set them high enough to actually do some good, instead of keeping the poorest people poor?

There's a balance in everything.

Let's put it in terms that you're more familiar with.

If dumping a lot of perchlorate into the river is harmful to the fish, is there a balance of an appropriate amount of perchlorate that will help the fish?

[FirstAscent]

No, I am asking you what the "other factors" you mentioned you knew are making the unemployment rate stay stable despite the cost of labor being increased.

Perhaps because the minimum wage floor puts enough money in the lowest wage earners' pockets that they can actually become (to a point) effective participants in the economy.

Well, then why don't we make minimum wage $25/hour? Then everyone will be well paid enough to become very effective participants in the economy. Why keep the lowest wage-earners just above, poverty? Why not legislate prosperity, instead?

I know you're not actually so stupid as to believe that some thought doesn't go into what the minimum wage floor is. Did you know that $25 an hour might actually cause the problems you believe exist right now? You see, it has been demonstrated that the minimum wage floors don't cause problems. How about that?

Well, if minimum wage floors don't cause problems, why not set them high enough to actually do some good, instead of keeping the poorest people poor?

There's a balance in everything.

Let's put it in terms that you're more familiar with.

If dumping a lot of perchlorate into the river is harmful to the fish, is there a balance of an appropriate amount of perchlorate that will help the fish?

Let's put this in a perspective that maybe you can understand. Would you rather live in a world with zero CO2 in the atmosphere, or ten times the current amount that is currently in the atmosphere?

[SgtSpike]

This thread is now hilarious.

Keep the punches rolling, guys!

[Rudd-O]

You are whipping FistAsshat's ass, myrkul. I love how he can't make "theories" up fast enough to obscure the truth. I love how he cannot substantiate his made up stuff either.

[Richy_T]

Let's put this in a perspective that maybe you can understand. Would you rather live in a world with zero CO2 in the atmosphere, or ten times the current amount that is currently in the atmosphere?

Human beings could not live in an atmosphere with zero CO2 (or is that your point?).

[myrkul]

Let's put this in a perspective that maybe you can understand. Would you rather live in a world with zero CO2 in the atmosphere, or ten times the current amount that is currently in the atmosphere?

That is actually an argument for letting the market determine the wage for a specific labor, you know that, right? The level of CO2 in the atmosphere is self-regulated by the animals and plants. It's not "decided" and enforced by some regulatory agency. CO2 levels increase, more plants take advantage of that CO2, reducing the levels and increasing oxygen.

Price floors cause surpluses in every other good which you set them for. Why would they not cause surplus in labor?

Human beings could not live in an atmosphere with zero CO2 (or is that your point?).

Yes, that's his point. We actually need a small amount of CO2 to trigger our breathing response. Too much, or too little, and we suffocate.