Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

[fabianhjr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

What do you think?
How does Bitcoin fit in?

[carlerha]

Bitcoin is supposed to be a currency. The venus project calls for society without an economy. I'd rephrase it from "does bitcoin fit in with zeitgeist" to "how on earth could the venus project fit in with anything?" Centrally planned societies don't work.

[fabianhjr]

Not that part, there are many economic parts one which I want to note is the inflation and consumption.

They argue that inflation, in which each time you can buy less, drives to more consumption.
Deflation by the other side would drive to efficiency and economization. Why spend it if in the future you can get more?

An instance for this is the computer world in which you can get more the longer you wait.

Each 2 years the capacity doubles. So that means if I wait 4 years I would get something 4x more powerful and at the same price. If I wait 8 years I get something 16 times more powerful at the same price. This surely haven't halted the market however it is still debated. What connection does inflation and deflation has to do with consumption?

[evoorhees]

Zeitgeist is full of ridiculous claims, mixed in with some important insights that are valid.

What Zeitgeist calls for, however, is an economy without money or even strongly held private property. Such a society is silly, in my opinion.

95% of the evils in that movie could be removed from Earth if we simply started shrinking the government substantially... and that was obvious before the movie.

[ender]

You can't say something wouldn't work if it has not been tested before. Unless you have the tools to scientifically prove it, like I can inference from a formula that I wouldn't be able to lift the earth.
And no, comunism or fascism or whatever-ism has nothing to do with the venus project. We are talking about replacing politics with the scientific method, the same way politics replaced religion for social organisation. It has not been tested before.

"95% of the evils in that movie could be removed from Earth if we simply started shrinking the government substantially... and that was obvious before the movie."
Yeah like we are better now with an unregulated financial system that has led the world to bankrupcy. If anything, this crisis should teach us that neoliberalism benefits a handful of people while the rest of us pay its consequences.

About the bitcoin+venus. Venus project doesn't really need any "coin" to work so from that perspective it wouldn't fit.
What bitcoins could be useful for is for the transition. We would need money then, and a money that pays no interests to banks etc is perfect

[Sjalq]

You can't say something wouldn't work if it has not been tested before. Unless you have the tools to scientifically prove it, like I can inference from a formula that I wouldn't be able to lift the earth.
And no, comunism or fascism or whatever-ism has nothing to do with the venus project. We are talking about replacing politics with the scientific method, the same way politics replaced religion for social organisation. It has not been tested before.

"95% of the evils in that movie could be removed from Earth if we simply started shrinking the government substantially... and that was obvious before the movie."
Yeah like we are better now with an unregulated financial system that has led the world to bankrupcy. If anything, this crisis should teach us that neoliberalism benefits a handful of people while the rest of us pay its consequences.

About the bitcoin+venus. Venus project doesn't really need any "coin" to work so from that perspective it wouldn't fit.
What bitcoins could be useful for is for the transition. We would need money then, and a money that pays no interests to banks etc is perfect

I'm sorry but your facts are skewed. Neoliberalism is every BUT unregulated financial markets. I'm going to challenge you and ask you to point to specific regulations that were lifted that led to the crises, linking cause and effect. Also name the size and the funding of the SEC and other financial regulatory bodies and how they grew in the decade preceding the crises. Please do not simply repeat the party line if you have not seen the facts for yourself.

The financial crises was cause by easy fed money, the rest are simply details, cracks the water followed to seep out of the ceiling. The answer is not to build a water proof ceiling but to fix the leaking pipe.

An excellent book to read on the subject is Thomas J Woods' "Rollback."

[ender]

You can't say something wouldn't work if it has not been tested before. Unless you have the tools to scientifically prove it, like I can inference from a formula that I wouldn't be able to lift the earth.
And no, comunism or fascism or whatever-ism has nothing to do with the venus project. We are talking about replacing politics with the scientific method, the same way politics replaced religion for social organisation. It has not been tested before.

"95% of the evils in that movie could be removed from Earth if we simply started shrinking the government substantially... and that was obvious before the movie."
Yeah like we are better now with an unregulated financial system that has led the world to bankrupcy. If anything, this crisis should teach us that neoliberalism benefits a handful of people while the rest of us pay its consequences.

About the bitcoin+venus. Venus project doesn't really need any "coin" to work so from that perspective it wouldn't fit.
What bitcoins could be useful for is for the transition. We would need money then, and a money that pays no interests to banks etc is perfect

I'm sorry but your facts are skewed. Neoliberalism is every BUT unregulated financial markets. I'm going to challenge you and ask you to point to specific regulations that were lifted that led to the crises, linking cause and effect. Also name the size and the funding of the SEC and other financial regulatory bodies and how they grew in the decade preceding the crises. Please do not simply repeat the party line if you have not seen the facts for yourself.

The financial crises was cause by easy fed money, the rest are simply details, cracks the water followed to seep out of the ceiling. The answer is not to build a water proof ceiling but to fix the leaking pipe.

An excellent book to read on the subject is Thomas J Woods' "Rollback."

An excellent documentary to watch is "Inside Job", won the oscar this year. There you have specific laws that were created after the 29 crack that were lifted since the 80's.
USA passes the laws because your government is infiltrated with wall st. capos and all the world pays. It is fact, tv just won't show you. Think why.

[sortedmush]

I think the section on genetic determinism is bang on. Very important information IMHO.

Later on he says: "Money is defined as monetised debt" which is clearly circular. His understanding of economics seems to be based on such ideas.

I recommend watching both Stefan Molyneux's review of Moving Forward and the subsequent debate between Molyneux and Joseph:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg5K07c72Tw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxjwBZjADiM

[fabianhjr]

Will do, thanks for the info.

[Sjalq]

You can't say something wouldn't work if it has not been tested before. Unless you have the tools to scientifically prove it, like I can inference from a formula that I wouldn't be able to lift the earth.
And no, comunism or fascism or whatever-ism has nothing to do with the venus project. We are talking about replacing politics with the scientific method, the same way politics replaced religion for social organisation. It has not been tested before.

"95% of the evils in that movie could be removed from Earth if we simply started shrinking the government substantially... and that was obvious before the movie."
Yeah like we are better now with an unregulated financial system that has led the world to bankrupcy. If anything, this crisis should teach us that neoliberalism benefits a handful of people while the rest of us pay its consequences.

About the bitcoin+venus. Venus project doesn't really need any "coin" to work so from that perspective it wouldn't fit.
What bitcoins could be useful for is for the transition. We would need money then, and a money that pays no interests to banks etc is perfect

I'm sorry but your facts are skewed. Neoliberalism is every BUT unregulated financial markets. I'm going to challenge you and ask you to point to specific regulations that were lifted that led to the crises, linking cause and effect. Also name the size and the funding of the SEC and other financial regulatory bodies and how they grew in the decade preceding the crises. Please do not simply repeat the party line if you have not seen the facts for yourself.

The financial crises was cause by easy fed money, the rest are simply details, cracks the water followed to seep out of the ceiling. The answer is not to build a water proof ceiling but to fix the leaking pipe.

An excellent book to read on the subject is Thomas J Woods' "Rollback."

An excellent documentary to watch is "Inside Job", won the oscar this year. There you have specific laws that were created after the 29 crack that were lifted since the 80's.
USA passes the laws because your government is infiltrated with wall st. capos and all the world pays. It is fact, tv just won't show you. Think why.

An oscar does not a fact make. Everything that happened would have happened anyway. I challenge you as an individual to restate the logic behind why "deregulation" and the "free market" are to blame in your own words.

Everything you are being told will enslave you more if you believe it.

[ender]

Sortedmush, thanks for the links dude!

To Sjalq: Now I pointed out to you a place where you can see the things you asked me you change the question. Now you want my interpretation of the situation.

1. Crack of 29 showed you just cannot mix finance with real economy. Laws were implemented for normal banks not to go the financial speculation route, in order to protect citizens from another crisis. Surely they were not perfect still, but better than nothing.
2. Then came the time 29 was forgotten and finance prophets managed to throw down all those laws. One at a time of course, so we wouldn't notice where we were headed. Since 80's to 10's. Banks started to invest in finance and invent "new and exciting ways" to make money out of doing nothing.
3. Not only that, but some smartass thought that if you gave loans to people who couldn't pay them, combine them with other loans, have rating agencies rate them AAA++itsawesome and put them in the market HE would make a fortune. So they did. That was the spark. Where that lead us is widely known.

In the docu they compare that with an oil ship. Those ships have to have compartments tightly sealed, or the oil would just bounce back and forth and sink the ship. That was the state before all the deregulation. Laws were the things enforcing "tightly sealed compartments". Now the laws are no more and the ship has sunk.

Now I challenge you as an individual to keep your face straight while you defend "deregulation" and Wall St. after all that has happened.

[Sjalq]

I did not change the question, just because it was in a film does not make it true.

The regulation you are referring to I assume is Glass-Steagall (since you still haven't mentioned a single act by name). Glass-Steagall simply prohibited an investment bank from being a normal bank as well. Nothing in Glass-Steagall would have prevented the repackaging of loans into other vehicles and then having them resold into packages. Not a single line of it would have helped and the actual practice started before Glass-Steagall was repealed in the 90s. Did you actually know that?

[Sjalq]

http://mises.org/daily/4100

[Sjalq]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage-backed_security

You can read the process of their creation here.

[ender]

Many laws, little by little, since the 1980's.

You should see the part about conflict of interest in the film. Just because you link to me a web from a fancy institute that is surely payed by the same guys who got us into the crisis doesnt make it true. As for wikipedia... its cool yadda-yadda yet it doesn't say shit about the crisis. Would I trust an article that is missing important information? Knowing how easily it is to edit wikipedia? Knowing your government periodically edits it?

You are a master in the arts of getting the attention off the main fact, you have been trained well.

Back to topic?

Bitcoins will come first. Resource based economy afterwards. And all bankers and financial capos will leave the world in peace.

[fabianhjr]

Bitcoins will come first. Resource based economy afterwards. And all bankers and financial capos will leave the world in peace.

Yeah, that is more of what I was talking, though I think it would be the same as any other currency in regards to the financial section, except most people won't risk because by itself they get purchasing power by just holding into it, and debtors would be in trouble. xD

[Sjalq]

Ender, you have no interest in reason.

[epi 1:10,000]

Yeay Star Trek!!!!

[LightRider]

We've been discussing a resource based economy in this thread for a while now.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5373

[gts476]

Bitcoin is (decentralised) money.

Zeitgeist calls for a 'Resource based economy'.

'Resource based economy' (RBE) is communism.

Communism requires the collective control (centralisation) of the medium of exchange (money).

So, Zeitgeist calling for 'RBE' is calling for communism which is calling for the centralisation of money and thus the centralisation of Bitcoin.

How doe's Bitcoin fit in?

It doesn't, Bitcoin has no place in 'RBE' and will in fact need to be destroyed in order to fulfil the 'RBE' (communist) agenda.