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[Trayber]

BetcoinTM I don't know why you ignore my questions regarding your blackjack. Purposely?

Anyways I finally found your rules page under the How to Play and after plugging in the house rules into a blackjack house edge calculator you have undoubtedly the worst 3:2 blackjack rules I've encountered in my 20 years playing the game either online or brick-and-mortar.

It calculates the house edge at over 1.1%!!!!! WTF.

Lets start with all the bad player rules

-Only double on 10 and 11.
-No double down after split
-No resplitting Aces
-Dealer hits Soft 17
-Player loses all wagers if dealer has a blackjack including doubles
-Casino uses 8 decks
-Casino offers no Insurance on Dealer Ace.


No wonder you ignore my comments so hopefully this brushes over and players don't realize what a scam you are operating with the most horrific rules in the history of blackjack. I am shocked a casino would offer such a bad game. Greed is an understatement.

No one should be playing this game.

[betcointm]

BetcoinTM I don't know why you ignore my questions regarding your blackjack. Purposely?

Anyways I finally found your rules page under the How to Play and after plugging in the house rules into a blackjack house edge calculator you have undoubtedly the worst 3:2 blackjack rules I've encountered in my 20 years playing the game either online or brick-and-mortar.

It calculates the house edge at over 1.1%!!!!! WTF.

Lets start with all the bad player rules

-Only double on 10 and 11.
-No double down after split
-No resplitting Aces
-Dealer hits Soft 17
-Player loses all wagers if dealer has a blackjack including doubles
-Casino uses 8 decks
-Casino offers no Insurance on Dealer Ace.


No wonder you ignore my comments so hopefully this brushes over and players don't realize what a scam you are operating with the most horrific rules in the history of blackjack. I am shocked a casino would offer such a bad game. Greed is an understatement.

No one should be playing this game.

Sorry, we aren't purposefully ignoring you. Some of these rules have been suggested in the past by other players, and we are certainly looking into adding them. However, we have put our current efforts into expanding our game offering to ensure that we have a wider offering. There are dedicated departments and developers for our proprietary games, however, and after the recent comments about the game we are certainly going to put extra effort to provide some TLC for our BlackJack game. If you choose not to play BlackJack on our site because of your rule preferences, then that is fine, but we certainly regret it and hope that you will try it again after we update the game logic.

No one here is trying to ignore anything - the purpose of us having this thread is to address player concerns and you should think us smarter than to try to 'brush something off'. The internet never forgets.

[betcointm]

I deposit 1BTC.  I get 3.01BTC as a bonus.  I now have 4.01BTC to gamble with.  Let's, for the moment, completely ignore that I can only ever cash out a max of 4.01BTC, which completely negates any positive variance I may experience/

If you were able to withdraw 4.01 (which you would after unlocking the bonus), that is a 301% increase in your deposit.

In order for this offer to be +ev, I'd need to have 1.01BTC in my account after I finish the rollover.

You would have 3.01 at the very least after unlocking.

[betcointm]

BetcoinTM I don't know why you ignore my questions regarding your blackjack. Purposely?

Anyways I finally found your rules page under the How to Play and after plugging in the house rules into a blackjack house edge calculator you have undoubtedly the worst 3:2 blackjack rules I've encountered in my 20 years playing the game either online or brick-and-mortar.

It calculates the house edge at over 1.1%!!!!! WTF.

Lets start with all the bad player rules

-Only double on 10 and 11.
-No double down after split
-No resplitting Aces
-Dealer hits Soft 17
-Player loses all wagers if dealer has a blackjack including doubles
-Casino uses 8 decks
-Casino offers no Insurance on Dealer Ace.


No wonder you ignore my comments so hopefully this brushes over and players don't realize what a scam you are operating with the most horrific rules in the history of blackjack. I am shocked a casino would offer such a bad game. Greed is an understatement.

No one should be playing this game.

Ah, I forgot you asked for a link to the rules. I assume you found those, though. Just in case,

www.betcoin.tm/blackjack/howtoplay

[dooglus]

In order for this offer to be +ev, I'd need to have 1.01BTC in my account after I finish the rollover.  For that to be true, your games would have to only have a .2% hold.

Do your games have 99.8% or higher payback?  Because if not, this deal is NOT +ev for depositors.

The expected value of unlocking the bonus is the 3.01 BTC. If you were to cash out 4.01 BTC after starting with 1... I am not exactly sure how that is not a positive value.

How can you be speaking on behalf of a casino and not understand what "expected value" means? That is just astonishing.

Expected value is defined as the sum of the product of the probability of each event and the corresponding profit.

Support you have a 0.002 (1 in 500) chance of unlocking the bonus and cashing out 4.01, and a 0.998 (499 in 500) chance of losing your 1 BTC deposit, the expected value is:

    0.002 * (+3.01) + 0.998 * (-1)

since when you unlock it your profit is +3.01 and when you don't your profit is -1.

    0.002 * (+3.01) + 0.998 * (-1) = -0.99198

That means for every BTC you deposit, your expected profit is -0.99198 BTC.

I don't know if 1 in 500 is a reasonable probability of unlocking the bonus, but even if it was 1 in 100 the EV would be:

    0.01 * (+3.01) + 0.99 * (-1) = -0.9599

It's clearly a terrible idea to take the first-deposit bonus.


I have something else I'm unclear about:

Support I deposit 1 BTC and take the 3.01x deposit bonus. I have a total of 4.01 BTC to play with. Then I play a little and get down to 2 BTC left.

Can I still withdraw my 1 BTC deposit and cancel the remaining 1 BTC of bonus I have left?

Or do you consider that the 2.01 BTC I lost so far was my deposit plus 1.01 BTC of bonus and so I can't withdraw anything?

Please clarify.

[DarkDays]

In order for this offer to be +ev, I'd need to have 1.01BTC in my account after I finish the rollover.  For that to be true, your games would have to only have a .2% hold.

Do your games have 99.8% or higher payback?  Because if not, this deal is NOT +ev for depositors.

The expected value of unlocking the bonus is the 3.01 BTC. If you were to cash out 4.01 BTC after starting with 1... I am not exactly sure how that is not a positive value.

How can you be speaking on behalf of a casino and not understand what "expected value" means? That is just astonishing.

Expected value is defined as the sum of the product of the probability of each event and the corresponding profit.

Support you have a 0.002 (1 in 500) chance of unlocking the bonus and cashing out 4.01, and a 0.998 (499 in 500) chance of losing your 1 BTC deposit, the expected value is:

    0.002 * (+3.01) + 0.998 * (-1)

since when you unlock it your profit is +3.01 and when you don't your profit is -1.

    0.002 * (+3.01) + 0.998 * (-1) = -0.99198

That means for every BTC you deposit, your expected profit is -0.99198 BTC.

I don't know if 1 in 500 is a reasonable probability of unlocking the bonus, but even if it was 1 in 100 the EV would be:

    0.01 * (+3.01) + 0.99 * (-1) = -0.9599

It's clearly a terrible idea to take the first-deposit bonus.


I have something else I'm unclear about:

Support I deposit 1 BTC and take the 3.01x deposit bonus. I have a total of 4.01 BTC to play with. Then I play a little and get down to 2 BTC left.

Can I still withdraw my 1 BTC deposit and cancel the remaining 1 BTC of bonus I have left?

Or do you consider that the 2.01 BTC I lost so far was my deposit plus 1.01 BTC of bonus and so I can't withdraw anything?

Please clarify.

Thank you for explaining in more detail.  That was pretty much exactly what I was going to/trying to say.

Also, amusingly enough, the question you asked was literally the next thing I was going to ask.  I'm interested in the answer, as well as a slight variant...can I deposit 1BTC, take the bonus, withdraw my 1BTC and play off of the bonus?

[dooglus]

Also, amusingly enough, the question you asked was literally the next thing I was going to ask.  I'm interested in the answer, as well as a slight variant...can I deposit 1BTC, take the bonus, withdraw my 1BTC and play off of the bonus?

They said earlier:

The amount available for withdraw after you unlock the bonus is the original bonus amount. We will not ever make your deposit unavailable to withdraw, so in your case the amount to withdraw would be 4.01 BTC.

but I doubt that is true. For example if I reject the bonus and immediately lose my whole deposit on a single bet then I would expect them to make my deposit unavailable to withdraw. So the bolded sentence is inaccurate, but I'm left not know what the actual situation is - which is why I asked the question I did.

As for your question I would expect that any withdrawal cancels the bonus, but it's hard to be sure about anything. They've already said that any new deposit will cancel your bonus - so if they're discouraging you from depositing more I can't see how they wouldn't also discourage you from withdrawing.

[Everybitbit]

In order for this offer to be +ev, I'd need to have 1.01BTC in my account after I finish the rollover.  For that to be true, your games would have to only have a .2% hold.

Do your games have 99.8% or higher payback?  Because if not, this deal is NOT +ev for depositors.

The expected value of unlocking the bonus is the 3.01 BTC. If you were to cash out 4.01 BTC after starting with 1... I am not exactly sure how that is not a positive value.

How can you be speaking on behalf of a casino and not understand what "expected value" means? That is just astonishing.

Expected value is defined as the sum of the product of the probability of each event and the corresponding profit.

Support you have a 0.002 (1 in 500) chance of unlocking the bonus and cashing out 4.01, and a 0.998 (499 in 500) chance of losing your 1 BTC deposit, the expected value is:

    0.002 * (+3.01) + 0.998 * (-1)

since when you unlock it your profit is +3.01 and when you don't your profit is -1.

    0.002 * (+3.01) + 0.998 * (-1) = -0.99198

That means for every BTC you deposit, your expected profit is -0.99198 BTC.

I don't know if 1 in 500 is a reasonable probability of unlocking the bonus, but even if it was 1 in 100 the EV would be:

    0.01 * (+3.01) + 0.99 * (-1) = -0.9599

It's clearly a terrible idea to take the first-deposit bonus.


I have something else I'm unclear about:

Support I deposit 1 BTC and take the 3.01x deposit bonus. I have a total of 4.01 BTC to play with. Then I play a little and get down to 2 BTC left.

Can I still withdraw my 1 BTC deposit and cancel the remaining 1 BTC of bonus I have left?

Or do you consider that the 2.01 BTC I lost so far was my deposit plus 1.01 BTC of bonus and so I can't withdraw anything?

Please clarify.

Thank you for explaining in more detail.  That was pretty much exactly what I was going to/trying to say.

Also, amusingly enough, the question you asked was literally the next thing I was going to ask.  I'm interested in the answer, as well as a slight variant...can I deposit 1BTC, take the bonus, withdraw my 1BTC and play off of the bonus?

Lol of course you cant.
Which casino make you deposit and take out ur intial deposit and play with deposit bonus btc?
Once you make no deposit bonus. You cant cashout anything unless you meet wagering or rollover requirements.

[betcointm]

Also, amusingly enough, the question you asked was literally the next thing I was going to ask.  I'm interested in the answer, as well as a slight variant...can I deposit 1BTC, take the bonus, withdraw my 1BTC and play off of the bonus?

They said earlier:

The amount available for withdraw after you unlock the bonus is the original bonus amount. We will not ever make your deposit unavailable to withdraw, so in your case the amount to withdraw would be 4.01 BTC.

but I doubt that is true. For example if I reject the bonus and immediately lose my whole deposit on a single bet then I would expect them to make my deposit unavailable to withdraw. So the bolded sentence is inaccurate, but I'm left not know what the actual situation is - which is why I asked the question I did.

As for your question I would expect that any withdrawal cancels the bonus, but it's hard to be sure about anything. They've already said that any new deposit will cancel your bonus - so if they're discouraging you from depositing more I can't see how they wouldn't also discourage you from withdrawing.

If you want to deposit and then withdraw to play with the deposit bonus, then that is essentially playing with the no-deposit bonus. So, yes that would cancel the bonus.

Also, the statement should be "We won't ever disallow you from withdrawing any amount of your deposit that you haven't already wagered."

[betcointm]

Expected value is defined as the sum of the product of the probability of each event and the corresponding profit.

Well, that's true, but it is calculated a bit differently for bonuses.

For dice, our house edge is 1.88%.

Say you deposit 1 BTC, and you stand to unlock 3.01. The wagering requirement would be 1555.88.

So, to calculate the EV,

1555.88 * 0.0188 = 29.25

Right, so the expected value of the bonus is negative if you were to continue to wager your own funds to unlock the bonus, but the fact of the matter is that the deposit itself is zero-risk.

If you're not happy with the outcomes of the games, then you can just cancel the bonus and play with your regular deposit. From the site:

If you do not meet the requirements you will not be able to withdraw your winnings, but you will always be able to withdraw your own deposit amount.

The fact that it is zero-risk, to me, guarantees that no matter what, unlocking the bonus is a chance with expected (though unlikely) positive results that you take in order to get 301% of your deposit. When I talk about Expected Value in the case of a risk-free bonus, I'm talking about the face value of the unlocked amount. If the bonus had some risk involved, then obviously at these numbers 50-80x would make it more likely, but if you're looking to get 3x of small wagers, then just play the games. We are offering a way to get 3 times the total deposited amount while not taking on any risk - I don't see how this is unfair.

We're not looking to get people to keep depositing their money in order to unlock an unlikely bonus - you can stop at any time, and we don't hide any of the bonus information from anyone.

And we certainly aren't keeping your deposited funds tangled with the bonus amount, that would be ludicrous. We're giving a risk free shot to deposit money, try your luck to get 3x the deposit without taking any risks (unless you choose to).

I fail to see how this is unfair to anyone. The fact that it is extremely unlikely, to most of our players, is irrelevant. They have a fair shot at doing it - just as they have a fair shot at unlocking the no-deposit bonus, and we're not going to force anyone to play through their actual deposited funds.

In the end, even a modest bonus of 2 with a 30x rollover would net you a .1 or so and the possibility of losing all your funds.

Take as much risk as you want - our bonuses give people a fair shot to win without exposing them to excessive risk. Our players happily take the bonus to test the system to check our provably fair system. Some win it big, and some don't, but that is the nature of games of chance.

since when you unlock it your profit is +3.01 and when you don't your profit is -1.

This is just plainly not the case unless you wager your amount down to zero. Most players will withdraw their funds long before they get to this point. When the prospects are not good, withdrawal is the best option. We do not stop them from doing so if they don't meet the bonus requirements or choose to cancel their bonus.

[dcouncilor]

 
 hi admin_betcoin.tm,

Can u please look into my account? i don't use vpn and im not sure if i already have an accnt, because if i already did sign up before i don't intend to multi-accnt. I havent visited your site until a few days ago and i signed up. please take a look into my accnt.
username: d_unknown4
thank you

[Everybitbit]

 hi admin_betcoin.tm,

Can u please look into my account? i don't use vpn and im not sure if i already have an accnt, because if i already did sign up before i don't intend to multi-accnt. I havent visited your site until a few days ago and i signed up. please take a look into my accnt.
username: d_unknown4
thank you

Seems mostly member got this message in poker room. Maybe just need wait OP to solve the problem?
Well if really dont use vpn maybe just send message to support. They might help you with this.

[panjul07]

 hi admin_betcoin.tm,

Can u please look into my account? i don't use vpn and im not sure if i already have an accnt, because if i already did sign up before i don't intend to multi-accnt. I havent visited your site until a few days ago and i signed up. please take a look into my accnt.
username: d_unknown4
thank you

Seems mostly member got this message in poker room. Maybe just need wait OP to solve the problem?
Well if really dont use vpn maybe just send message to support. They might help you with this.

Yeah, I was using VPN before and now I can access the poker game again after sent a message to support while they were offline. I have asked about it before while they were online but I got nothing..a bit funny but its OK because I can play poker again

[dooglus]

Well, that's true, but it is calculated a bit differently for bonuses.

OK, so I think I understand what you are saying now. It goes like this - correct me if I'm wrong:

----
I have two choices:

a) I can deposit 1 BTC, reject the bonus, play as much or as little as I like, and withdraw my whole balance.

b) I can deposit 1 BTC, accept the bonus, and have 4.01 in my balance. If I happen to wager enough to unlock the bonus I can withdraw whatever is in my balance up to 4.01 but no more. But at any time I can opt to cancel the bonus, which subtracts 3.01 from my balance and then I am free to withdraw whatever is left.
----

Is that correct? Does "cancel the bonus" mean "subtract 3.01 from my balance" in this case?

If I have all this right, then the bonus does seem to be +EV compared to not accepting it. The worst that can happen is that I lose 1 BTC in both cases, but having accepted the bonus there's a chance I lose more than 1 BTC but then recover it, using the bonus money.

So what happens in this hypothetical situation:

I depost 1 BTC, you give me 3.01 extra, so I have 4.01. I wager 387 times the bonus amount, and end up with 1000 BTC in my balance. I haven't unlocked the bonus yet because I need to wager 388 times to unlock it. I cancel the bonus. You take 3.01 off my balance. I have 996.99 left. I withdraw it.

Is that allowed? If not, why not? According to my new understanding of your bonus it seems like it should be allowed.

Edit: none of the above can be right. It's easily abused. And I see in the terms:

  "If you do not meet the requirements you will not be able to withdraw your winnings, but you will always be able to withdraw your own deposit amount"

and so "cancel the bonus" in this case means "if my balance is greater than 4.01, set it to 1, else subtract 3.01 from it". Is that right?

If so, then the deposit bonus *is* -EV, and should never be accepted - because it's very unlikely you will be able to make any profit at all. You have to wager a massive amount before it is possible to keep any profit you might happen to make, and even then you can only keep up to 3.01 of whatever you are lucky enough to make after wagering over 1500 BTC.

You see, the EV when you reject the bonus is close to zero (it's only around -0.0188 per BTC wagered) because wins cancel out losses. But if you accept the bonus the EV is much lower, because there's almost no possibility of winning, and a decent chance of losing.

You wrote:

Most players will withdraw their funds long before they get to this point. When the prospects are not good, withdrawal is the best option

Not a single one of these players who cancel their bonus before unlocking it are profiting from the bonus are they? They are ending up with the same or less than they deposited. That's why it's a bad deal to take the deposit bonus.

You compare it to the lottery, but that's not really valid.

In the lottery you pay $1 for a 1 in 2 million chance of winning $1 million. Crappy odds, the payout is only half of what it "should" be. The house take is 50%. You're unlikely to win, but when you do you get a good multiplier. 1 in 2 million to win, with a million times multiplier. Bad, but not horrible.

With your bonus, you say you have a 1 in 500 chance of 'winning' (ie. clearing the bonus) but when you do win, you only get a 4.1x payout. 1 in 500 chance of 4.1x is horrible odds. And so I'm back at my original position that nobody should take the deposit bonus, and that it is actually harmful to their expected value to do so.

[betcointm]

and so "cancel the bonus" in this case means "if my balance is greater than 4.01, set it to 1, else subtract 3.01 from it". Is that right?

Exactly.

Not a single one of these players who cancel their bonus before unlocking it are profiting from the bonus are they? They are ending up with the same or less than they deposited. That's why it's a bad deal to take the deposit bonus.

If the requirements are not met, then the original deposit amount is what's made available, but regardless, you are making a valid assessment provided the bettor wagered a portion of their funds towards the bonus.

You see, the EV when you reject the bonus is close to zero (it's only around -0.0188 per BTC wagered) because wins cancel out losses. But if you accept the bonus the EV is much lower, because there's almost no possibility of winning, and a decent chance of losing.

Depends on the player - if you're willing to accept the odds of clearing 388x for 301%, and view it as such a prospect and thereby wager your own funds, I think it is fair to say that what you're saying is true. If you're going on the chance to make 301% without actually betting anything - which is what most people will do - then I don't agree. It all depends on whether or not you start betting your deposit.

It's a matter of perspective on the prospect of winning. If you're betting your own funds, the EV is lower. The deposit bonus can be zero risk, though, and in most cases is treated as such.

Off the top of me head, I really can't think of anyone that has bet their initial deposit on it - as you say, it's not really meant to be treated that way.

What I take away from this is that there needs to be an option - the no-risk deposit bonus vs. one that has a rollover well worth taking a risk on. 50x, perhaps. If we go with that... let's see:

200.5 * 0.0188 = 3.77

So considering that you'd need to bet 4.01 BTC - and taking 3.01 off the top right away - you'd stand to make about 0.24 BTC. This seems more fair to me, but of course the limit would have to be much lower for the actual deposit bonus than what we have now.

Thoughts?

[dooglus]

If the requirements are not met, then the original deposit amount is what's made available

Only if they didn't lose anything at all yet, right? I deposit 1, you make it up to 4.01, I bet and lose 0.01 leaving 4 in my balance then cancel the bonus. What's my balance? It's not my original deposit is it? You take off 3.01 leaving just 0.99.

If you're going on the chance to make 301% without actually betting anything - which is what most people will do - then I don't agree. It all depends on whether or not you start betting your deposit.

So I still don't understand it. How can I make 301% without actually betting anything? How can I not "start betting my deposit"?

It's a matter of perspective on the prospect of winning. If you're betting your own funds, the EV is lower. The deposit bonus can be zero risk, though, and in most cases is treated as such.

As I understand it, it's impossible to bet without risking my own funds. When I cancel the bonus, you subtract the whole bonus amount. So I'm not betting that bonus money, I'm betting my deposit from the very first bet.

Thoughts?

I still don't understand the current bonus system enough to give my thoughts on your proposed modification to it, sorry.

[bitjamz]

now i have another problem

no balance in poker room.

anyone have same problem?

still not fixed?

[panjul07]

now i have another problem

no balance in poker room.

anyone have same problem?

still not fixed?

Have you asked the customer support or send a pm to OP? I think they have good support while they are online or offline.

[uncleho]

Why you unlock my account and confiscate all BTC?
I lost 0.1031BTC

[betcointm]

Why you unlock my account and confiscate all BTC?
I lost 0.1031BTC

What is your username?