Is it the nut-shell or the Nut ? you are dealing with.

[Heutenamos]

Hey people ,

 I made this thread after having a discussion with smooth (about trust feedback) which requires forum users opinions and point of views.
Some weeks ago i was short of some $$ and i had an option to keep one of my altcoin as collateral and seek a loan with the most safest way possible (probably from a highly trusted guy) so that i could have it sooner and with the satisfaction that my funds are safe .
read else here --- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=521862.msg12797095#msg12797095

after the transaction maybe smooth felt that i was deserving for the feedback and added a +1 to my profile , I too gave him a + feedback as well cause he agreed to all my terms and was way over comfortable to trade with. Now i see that there is an edited feedback on my profile from smooth and it say "the account is bought and changed this to neutral etc.. "

I PM'ed him when i noticed the change and the conclusion was that it's nothing personal but it could affect his profile if people see him trusting me .
He made it clear that he agrees with me in some sense but .....you know

People who are thinking i took the loan for trust purpose are free to make an accusation against me cause that would be off-topic here

Now i would like to ask you people that are you not allowed to leave a feedback to someone when you agree with him and you think he should be trusted ?
What influence does "account's features" have over the person's  integrity and honesty ?

on a side note there are many users on forum who are/were involved in account sales ( QS, neotox, hilarious&co , outlander etc..) does this means all should not be trusted forever cause the account sales is a gray area in forum ? No matter how trustworthy they are .
It was discussed with smooth that this thread is not only bout me but for every guy in such situation.

you people have the authority to speak about your opinions and which is the motive of this Poll,every account of forum had 1 activity some time ago and it got built to what it is today.

I will lock this thread after getting 100 answers (50 if people are not sure to answer or not) , will also wear this threads  in my signature until resolved. Make a post here after submitting your answer.

feel free to accuse me if anything above said is wrong and kindly keep the posts on topic.

[Heutenamos]

Trolls do not have any possibility of trolling in this poll cause your vote is a complete waste unless you make a post here explaining you opinion about it no matter how short or long it is.
This was already discussed with smooth cause of the army of sock-puppet account's and enough negative mindset.

So whoever just submitted a vote should post here in order to get his vote counted.
Edit: Regardless of the answer you choose.

This post was to remove the alt/troll account votes and as majority of the members voted are on DT ,so its no longer needed.

[mexxer-2]

This discussion is useless IMO, if smooth himself thinks that someone who bought an account and then took a loan shouldn't be trusted, well you can't force him to reinstate the feedback. At any rate, I don't see why he should give a feedback for a loan for which he had collateral, a neutral would be more ideal IMHO.

[hilariousandco]

Why create a poll if you're just going to disregard it? A lot of what you said is rambling and incoherent but people are free to leave or remove whatever feedback they want but if you have a problem with that take it up with the individual people involved.

on a side note there are many users on forum who are/were involved in account sales ( QS, neotox, hilarious&co , outlander etc..) does this means all should not be trusted forever cause the account sales is a gray area in forum?

You should get your facts straight because I've never previously been involved with account sales.

[subSTRATA]

on a side note there are many users on forum who are/were involved in account sales ( QS, neotox, hilarious&co , outlander etc..) does this means all should not be trusted forever cause the account sales is a gray

im my opinion, a bought account doesnt say anything about the actual person behind that account in terms of how trustable they may or may not be. sure, its a given that bought accounts can be used to scam (bitcoinblackfriday), but its common knowledge on the forum that bought accounts are, for the most part, used to participate in signature campaigns for the higher payout. as for the portion of your op i quoted, i do remember reading a post somewhere (somewhere that im not going to go dig for) from QS stating that he had sold or escrowed the sale of some accounts in the past that have risen to positions on DT over the years. not saying that applies to everyone though.

in regards to the poll's options, theyre pretty limited.

No, bought account's should never be given + feedback no matter how trustworthy the guy is

i disagree with this, people can be trusted, accounts are more or less just an identity people know you as, and even if an account is known to be bought, the person behind that online identity can come to be trusted over time. take the case of some of the account trades QS escrowed / sold above for example. trust them right off the bat? no. over a year or two? id consider it.

Yes, The guy should be trusted if he is honest and you had a smooth trade with him.

again, i don't agree with this one either, just one example of a trade on a newly assumed identity is not and cannot be indicative of the user's honesty. there's always the possibility that thhe newly bought account is trying to farm trust points to pull off an exit scam later, or something. however, going back to the previous reasoning, that person behind that assumed identity can come to be trusted as time passes. everything regarding the matter is a gray area, really, especially with the trust system and internet green points. i personally dont even bother with it anymore to be honest. im also not voting on the poll as i dont agree with either of the answer choices.

This discussion is useless IMO, if smooth himself thinks that someone who bought an account and then took a loan shouldn't be trusted, well you can't force him to reinstate the feedback. At any rate, I don't see why he should give a feedback for a loan for which he had collateral, a neutral would be more ideal IMHO.

exactly, trust isnt mandated to be left on every little trade or dealing / interaction that happens on the forum. if someone feels that a certain interaction with another user gives them the impression that the user in question is an honest person, by all means feel free to leave a positive rating. that dosnt mean you have to though, for example my trust page is not at all indicative of all the trades / dealings ive had.

[KWH]

If you bought an account and are using feedback, Rank or longevity of account that is not your own for loans and to appear trustworthy, you probably aren't. You just bought the appearance of being trustworthy and a Neutral should suffice although that is up to the trading partner.
I have seen several purchased accounts recently packing on the positive Trust and it's a little alarming. Some are those that had Negatives and instead of fixing their mistakes, just wanted to wipe those Negatives out and start with a clean and/or green, bought account. Essentially buying Trust or the appearance of Trust. Why is this? Perhaps to deceive those into trading with those that most wouldn't go near them with their tainted accounts?

[Heutenamos]

This discussion is useless IMO, if smooth himself thinks that someone who bought an account and then took a loan shouldn't be trusted, well you can't force him to reinstate the feedback. At any rate,

You are not reading anything , I am not forcing smooth to give ++ to me but instead i am supporting his prior decision about leaving me a + but changed it later due to people having different opinions and i agree with that cause he has a right to care about his profile.

I don't see why he should give a feedback for a loan for which he had collateral, a neutral would be more ideal IMHO.

maybe you don't see but he did gave me a + back then.

Why create a poll if you're just going to disregard it? A lot of what you said is rambling and incoherent but people are free to leave or remove whatever feedback they want but if you have a problem with that take it up with the individual people involved.

on a side note there are many users on forum who are/were involved in account sales ( QS, neotox, hilarious&co , outlander etc..) does this means all should not be trusted forever cause the account sales is a gray area in forum?

You should get your facts straight because I've never previously been involved with account sales.

Sorry for this but i honestly didn't wanted to accuse anybody here so i would strike that off.

yes but smooth will probably see this poll and take his decision depending on the results...so it requires users opinions.

This discussion is useless IMO, if smooth himself thinks that someone who bought an account and then took a loan shouldn't be trusted, well you can't force him to reinstate the feedback. At any rate, I don't see why he should give a feedback for a loan for which he had collateral, a neutral would be more ideal IMHO.

exactly, trust isnt mandated to be left on every little trade or dealing / interaction that happens on the forum. if someone feels that a certain interaction with another user gives them the impression that the user in question is an honest person, by all means feel free to leave a positive rating. that dosnt mean you have to though, for example my trust page is not at all indicative of all the trades / dealings ive had.

Yes , this is the reason i never asked him a trust but instead he himself gave me one and the reason could be that he found me enough trustworthy.
But the change is brought by the opinions of other people and he made it clear in the pm's that he agrees with me in some sense.

If you bought an account and are using feedback, Rank or longevity of account that is not your own for loans and to appear trustworthy, you probably aren't. You just bought the appearance of being trustworthy and a Neutral should suffice although that is up to the trading partner.
I have seen several purchased accounts recently packing on the positive Trust and it's a little alarming. Some are those that had Negatives and instead of fixing their mistakes, just wanted to wipe those Negatives out and start with a clean and/or green, bought account. Essentially buying Trust or the appearance of Trust. Why is this? Perhaps to deceive those into trading with those that most wouldn't go near them with their tainted accounts?

True, but I don't see any service offered by me which could lead to scams , it is not that hard to read the persons posts and get a basic knowledge about him.I didn't had any negative ever.

[mexxer-2]

I don't see why he should give a feedback for a loan for which he had collateral, a neutral would be more ideal IMHO.

maybe you don't see but he did gave me a + back then.

I did, which is why I'm curious. But if smooth felt you were(to be) trusted(by him) I've no objection to it.
I see you just edited your OP:

He made it clear that he agrees with me in some sense but .....you know?

I see what smooth's position would be, I believe he fears being removed from DT or something similar. At any rate, if you do trust someone enough to give them pos. trust on the first place, I wouldn't say just because you found out its a bought account the feedback should be any different. But if this threatens his credibility(in someone else's mind) , well, some thing have to be done.

[GannickusX]

Just don't buy accounts? Create an account like everyone else, it's free. Level up the account like everyone else, you can make trades even if you are a newbie as long as you are using escrow, you can get positive trust easily if you trade a lot even as a newbie so why not just do that? Why do people have to buy accounts, they know it's problematic.

[Heutenamos]

I don't see why he should give a feedback for a loan for which he had collateral, a neutral would be more ideal IMHO.

maybe you don't see but he did gave me a + back then.

I did, which is why I'm curious. But if smooth felt you were(to be) trusted(by him) I've no objection to it.
I see you just edited your OP:

He made it clear that he agrees with me in some sense but .....you know?

I see what smooth's position would be, I believe he fears being removed from DT or something similar. At any rate, if you do trust someone enough to give them pos. trust on the first place, I wouldn't say just because you found out its a bought account the feedback should be any different. But if this threatens his credibility(in someone else's mind) , well, some thing have to be done.

Correct now you are on topic and yes i edited but nothing is deleted .

Just don't buy accounts? Create an account like everyone else, it's free. Level up the account like everyone else, you can make trades even if you are a newbie as long as you are using escrow, you can get positive trust easily if you trade a lot even as a newbie so why not just do that? Why do people have to buy accounts, they know it's problematic.

No, it's not problematic if done with proper escrow and the new identity is known.
Take an example of fa*tdice ,what if the scammed when some whale deposited 300+ coins ? is there any guarantee that will not happen ?
they have no reputation to lose if they do that . I have a voice and some reputation at least which i might care about before getting into anything shady.
Scams are unrelated to account's and i can show hundreds of coins lost over hundreds of threads by newbies on newbies/jr member's etc..
some people cannot be helped and they need to experience the fire in order to understand the warnings given by the trusted one's.
Even a guy who purchased an account has coins invested in it and might be scared of losing it over a negative rating before attempting any scam.

[shorena]

IMHO its perfectly fine to change a rating at a later time if new information are available. Lets say you are happy with a trade and leave a positive feedback. Now you find out that the account was bought and you think that buying accounts is about the worst thing one can do here. Why should you not change your rating? Should you add a negative instead? You cant take a rating without context. Apparently for smooth its important to give out only a few ratings that have an impact.

[Heutenamos]

Let me make one thing clear again that i am not accusing nor against smooth and people are ignoring that.

IMHO its perfectly fine to change a rating at a later time if new information are available. Lets say you are happy with a trade and leave a positive feedback.

In summary, for people who previously had many positives and no negatives:
- The first negative rating defines a border between pre-controversy and post-controversy.
- Don't move this border unless you have a really good reason. If you must add more info, leave another negative or neutral rating.
- If you agree with the border-negative, leave a negative rating.
- If you disagree with the border-negative, leave a positive rating responding to the negative, even if you already have a positive rating for that person. Don't delete your old rating. You should also consider excluding the inaccurate-rater from your trust list.

Now you find out that the account was bought and you think that buying accounts is about the worst thing one can do here.

There was already an inclined text feedback on my profile from KWH even if we assume smooth might have ignored/missed then why would he agree with me on the positive one ?
but the point is he shouldn't/couldn't risk his reputation by giving trust to me cause other DT people will be more than happy to remove him from DT or create unnecessary complications for him . I assume someone has pmed him bout this or maybe not but in any case i wouldn't care to know about it cause they definitely lack logic in their mind.

Why should you not change your rating?

you could and i got no problems if he wants to but changing because of other non-logical people is what i am speaking about

Should you add a negative instead?

A negative cause you ignored the previous trusted ratings and realize/observe/notice it after weeks ? i might want to know how come you get to that conclusion.

Account Sale : people who hate account sales only leave a neutral most of the time and negative if the account is highly trusted and a significant amount of coins can be scammed.
However giving positive/negative/neutral for account sales is off-topic here.

Apparently for smooth its important to give out only a few ratings that have an impact.

If he cared to give me a positive before based solely on his own opinions then the feedback had an impact.

[shorena]

Let me make one thing clear again that i am not accusing nor against smooth and people are ignoring that.

IMHO its perfectly fine to change a rating at a later time if new information are available. Lets say you are happy with a trade and leave a positive feedback.

In summary, for people who previously had many positives and no negatives:
- The first negative rating defines a border between pre-controversy and post-controversy.
- Don't move this border unless you have a really good reason. If you must add more info, leave another negative or neutral rating.
- If you agree with the border-negative, leave a negative rating.
- If you disagree with the border-negative, leave a positive rating responding to the negative, even if you already have a positive rating for that person. Don't delete your old rating. You should also consider excluding the inaccurate-rater from your trust list.

The quote of theymos has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Its about leaving a counter rating if you strongly disagree with a given negative one. It puts arguments into the trust system that can not be resolved otherwise.

-snip-

Why should you not change your rating?

you could and i got no problems if he wants to but changing because of other non-logical people is what i am speaking about

I have never experienced what you describe. If smooth does, you should talk to them and not ask for other opinions. I can not argue for someone else, I can only give you my view.

[Heutenamos]

If smooth does, you should talk to them and not ask for other opinions.

I have done, but the the number of people agreeing to this poll might influence him or give him the surety to take the stand and explain/present it when required.

I can only give you my view.

That is why i pmed you and still waiting for one .It's poll.

[shorena]

If smooth does, you should talk to them and not ask for other opinions.

I have done, but the the number of people agreeing to this poll might influence him or give him the surety to take the stand and explain/present it when required.

I can only give you my view.

That is why i pmed you and still waiting for one .It's poll.

To boild it down:

Trying to influence others on DT is not ok, unless it is done with arguments.

Those on DT should give the ratings they think are deserved and should be free to change their mind.

[Heutenamos]

If smooth does, you should talk to them and not ask for other opinions.

I have done, but the the number of people agreeing to this poll might influence him or give him the surety to take the stand and explain/present it when required.

I can only give you my view.

That is why i pmed you and still waiting for one .It's poll.

To boild it down:

Trying to influence others on DT is not ok, unless it is done with arguments.

Those on DT should give the ratings they think are deserved and should be free to change their mind.

I m not influencing from my side ,i m told that it will be influential .

[tmfp]

I'm finding this a bit difficult to follow, but if I'd left any trust + or - on an account that I later found out was sold, then I'd remove it completely because it was only relevant to the original owner, not the account itself with an unknown new owner.
I can't see any trust whatsoever left for you by Smooth, what is the big deal here?

[Heutenamos]

I'm finding this a bit difficult to follow,

no problem. Read the thread once more;)

but if I'd left any trust + or - on an account that I later found out was sold, then I'd remove it completely because it was only relevant to the original owner, not the account itself with an unknown new owner.

I am the original owner whom smooth left a + and i am the one who loaned from smooth . The account is not sold after the feedback was given but a long ago.

I can't see any trust whatsoever left for you by Smooth, what is the big deal here?

He will probably update it later and maybe have a look at this poll before updating.

[SebastianJu]

A bought account should be treated like a newbie account, with the same rules you would apply to a newbie account. If someone gave a neutral rating saying that the account was bought then all ratings after that rating might be taken into consideration to find out the character of that person.

It's not that a bought account is generally untrustworthy.

[Vod]

I believe we trust in a person, not the account they post from.

If an untrustworthy person creates a new account, their negative trust should follow them to that account.