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Author Topic: The Fascists That Surround You  (Read 9590 times)
FirstAscent
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December 01, 2012, 12:19:34 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2012, 12:33:37 AM by FirstAscent
 #61

You claim I pointed you to Amazon links. Next time, I'll point you to university database catalog entries, so you won't use such a childish and pathetic excuse to defend your own decision to remain ignorant.

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it." - Albert Einstein

And... what?

Just because Einstein was quoted as saying something, possibly out of context, does not make it so. Rather, some things require background knowledge, and a slow building up, case by case. As it turns out, anyone familiar with Einstein, and who has common sense, knows that Einstein and his contemporaries wrestled their whole lives with subjects that could not be explained simply.

If you want respect, then don't ever expect a single quote to defend your position. Only the worst kind of forum participants think they've won an argument by doing so.

Quote
You were off to a good start there, for a second, but then I guess you got bored, or realized you had no idea what you were talking about, or something.

Ah, I see. Doing just what I recently accused you and your lot of. Expecting your opponents to write whole treatises on the subject. I told you once and for all, don't demand that I educate you. I pointed out some excellent sources. And yes, I did get bored of being responsible for your education. Furthermore, if you're implying that perhaps I had no idea what I was talking about, as you seem to be doing, then it's clear you weren't interested in listening to me anyway. Thus the book recommendations.

Furthermore, I have never seen you able to refute anything I said with regard to the linked post and similar posts on the same topic. You should quit while you're ahead, because you keep failing to demonstrate anything here except the following:

- You refuse to educate yourself
- You think a book recommendation is an advertisement
- You like to demand that others educate you
- You claim that when others do educate you, they must not know what they're talking about
- You think a single quote is an effective refutation

Additionally, your whole belief system is based on what you know, which isn't a tenth of what you should know. You're unable to refute what I said in those educational posts. You're unable to parse it into your own belief system. Instead, you deflect, with claims that further education is only in the form of advertisements, by demanding that you require further posts of explanation until weighing in your opinion, etc.

What that precisely tells me is the information is inconvenient for you, and you don't want to hear more. Precisely. You're truly an Internet forum gas bag hiding in a community that favors you. If you had any balls, and any further knowledge outside of your fringe set of sources, you would actually be arguing your points to your opponents, which exist in droves outside this forum.
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December 01, 2012, 12:22:12 AM
 #62

- You claim that when others do educate you, they must not know what they're talking about

I stopped reading here, since yes, you have to know what you're talking about, or else you're just bullshitting.

Shovel some more, I won't be listening.

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December 01, 2012, 12:24:49 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2012, 12:37:03 AM by FirstAscent
 #63

- You claim that when others do educate you, they must not know what they're talking about

I stopped reading here, since yes, you have to know what you're talking about, or else you're just bullshitting.

Shovel some more, I won't be listening.

Close your eyes. Close your ears. You can't take accurate descriptions of your behavior. And your post here demonstrates another failing of your rebuttals. You get caught up in believing that calling out people on minor syntactical twists of words are some how worthy as refutation. Again, that only speaks negatively against you.
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December 01, 2012, 12:32:21 AM
 #64

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/07/the-startling-accuracy-of-referring-to-politicians-as-psychopaths/260517/  politicians are psycopaths.

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December 01, 2012, 01:50:39 AM
 #65

- You claim that when others do educate you, they must not know what they're talking about

I stopped reading here, since yes, you have to know what you're talking about, or else you're just bullshitting.

Shovel some more, I won't be listening.

Close your eyes. Close your ears. You can't take accurate descriptions of your behavior. And your post here demonstrates another failing of your rebuttals. You get caught up in believing that calling out people on minor syntactical twists of words are some how worthy as refutation. Again, that only speaks negatively against you.
My apologies, I misread what you typed there.

No, When someone who was expounding on a point suddenly stops, then I assume they must not know what they're talking about. I assume they're smart enough to determine that they've stuck their foot in their mouth, and have decided to stop chewing. Any time you want to start chewing again, though, feel free. You know where to do it.

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December 01, 2012, 09:57:12 AM
 #66

Anyone who's made it through the second video should find this thread throughly amusing so far.

I did not even watched the first video and I find you very pathetic.
Arguing from an admitted position of ignorance is not a good idea.

Augustocrappo's is the standard childish conversation sabotage tactic.  He needs to learn how to get get the peanut butter out of his ears before he can sit at the big boys' table and interact with them.

I am surprised how regularly this sabotage tactic is used here. Many people use it, consciously or not. It is a very simple task to join a discussion on any subject and endlessly deconstruct it until the discussion is derailed. It doesn't take much intelligence, just a really hard head, and true belief in the infallible correctness of your own ideology. So they want to discuss the relation between sociopaths and fascism. No one ever demanded that you believe it, or declared themselves an expert on the topic. No one OWES you an explanation that satisfies your demands. Now stop acting like a child knocking down the discussion other people built, and in which you have clearly expressed your lack of interest in. It is pretty sad that you need to seek out people you disagree with in order to feed your ego by endlessly deconstructing conversations. We get it, you can analyze things, poorly... now get a life and let the adults talk.

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December 01, 2012, 01:16:35 PM
 #67

No one ever did, except in the straw man you made up in your head so you could knock it down with definitions.

No one ever did what?
 
Fascism:Sociopaths::Garden:Roses.

So, again, is your argument that the sociopaths won't want the power, or that the government does not provide a means to that power?

That is not a relationship.

Yes, that is my argument, how many times I have to repeat to you understand? Sociopaths are individuals with a PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER, not individuals conspiring to overthrow a POLITICAL REGIMES. Moreover, there is no government departments offering jobs EXCLUSIVELY for sociopaths. If there is, feel free to provide the evidence.
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December 01, 2012, 04:17:17 PM
 #68

No one ever did, except in the straw man you made up in your head so you could knock it down with definitions.
No one ever did what?
My apologies, it should have read  "No one ever claimed that, except..."

Fascism:Sociopaths::Garden:Roses.
That is not a relationship.
Yes, actually, it is. The relationship of sociopaths to fascism is the same as the relationship of roses to a garden.

So, again, is your argument that the sociopaths won't want the power, or that the government does not provide a means to that power?
Yes, that is my argument...
Are you dense? You have not answered my question. Which is your argument?

That sociopaths do not want power?

That government does not provide a position of power?

I never claimed that government departments offer jobs exclusively to sociopaths (though an argument could be made for military positions, they cater more to psychopaths, than sociopaths), I simply claimed that sociopaths are uniquely suited to achieving government office, and that they would seek government office, because of the power such a position offers.

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December 01, 2012, 04:34:46 PM
Last edit: December 01, 2012, 04:45:18 PM by FirstAscent
 #69

So, again, is your argument that the sociopaths won't want the power, or that the government does not provide a means to that power?
Yes, that is my argument...
Are you dense? You have not answered my question. Which is your argument?

That sociopaths do not want power?

That government does not provide a position of power?

He did answer your question. Just because he preceded the answer with a 'Yes, that is my argument' does not mean he did not provide a sufficient answer to your question in the sentence after it.

Quote
I never claimed that government departments offer jobs exclusively to sociopaths (though an argument could be made for military positions, they cater more to psychopaths, than sociopaths), I simply claimed that sociopaths are uniquely suited to achieving government office, and that they would seek government office, because of the power such a position offers.

And millions of sociopaths also live their lives in relative anonymity too, creating personal hell for their spouses, children and acquaintances. And conversely, non-sociopaths seek political office as well.

Sociopaths also will exist in AnCap, and render their personal brand of hell in all their ways within such a society as well. What is your point again?
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December 01, 2012, 04:49:53 PM
 #70

Sociopaths also will exist in AnCap, and render their personal brand of hell in all their ways within such a society as well. What is your point again?
In a free society the damage sociopaths can cause to society will finally be limited to what they can accomplish via their own efforts instead of amplified by access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation.
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December 01, 2012, 04:54:58 PM
 #71

My apologies, it should have read  "No one ever claimed that, except..."

Except what?

Yes, actually, it is. The relationship of sociopaths to fascism is the same as the relationship of roses to a garden.

That is not a relationship, it is an analogy. Your analogy does not explain how both definitions relates to each other.

Are you dense? You have not answered my question. Which is your argument?

Yes, I have answered your questions.

That sociopaths do not want power?

Sociopaths are individuals with a PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER, not individuals conspiring to overthrow POLITICAL REGIMES.

That government does not provide a position of power?

Not exclusively for SOCIOPATHS.

I never claimed that government departments offer jobs exclusively to sociopaths (though an argument could be made for military positions, they cater more to psychopaths, than sociopaths)

Western military institutions does not accept individual with PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER. Western military institutions selects the most physically and mentally health individuals.

I simply claimed that sociopaths are uniquely suited to achieving government office, and that they would seek government office, because of the power such a position offers.

A claim of false premises. SOCIOPATHS are not suited to achieve government offices, they are individuals with PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER.
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December 01, 2012, 04:58:00 PM
 #72

Sociopaths also will exist in AnCap, and render their personal brand of hell in all their ways within such a society as well. What is your point again?
In a free society the damage sociopaths can cause to society will finally be limited to what they can accomplish via their own efforts instead of amplified by access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation.

What you mean, then, is they could never be worse than, say, someone like Hitler, as they gain wealth and power and a following? Nothing in AnCap precludes the accumulation of wealth, weapons, leverage through business, influence and followers. Good try, though.
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December 01, 2012, 04:59:19 PM
 #73

In a free society the damage sociopaths can cause to society will finally be limited to what they can accomplish via their own efforts instead of amplified by access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation.

Provide evidence that any diagnosed SOCIOPATH has 'access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation'.

Otherwise, your statement is false.
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December 01, 2012, 05:10:20 PM
 #74

In a free society the damage sociopaths can cause to society will finally be limited to what they can accomplish via their own efforts instead of amplified by access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation.

Provide evidence that any diagnosed SOCIOPATH has 'access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation'.

Otherwise, your statement is false.

I suspect Saddam Hussein was a little reticent when it came to sitting the sociopath test, though by his behavior it would be hard not to diagnose him as a little anti-social. Maybe he was just being histrionic.
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December 01, 2012, 05:13:03 PM
 #75

My apologies, it should have read  "No one ever claimed that, except..."
Except what?
Except in the strawman you made up in your mind. Do try and keep up.

Yes, actually, it is. The relationship of sociopaths to fascism is the same as the relationship of roses to a garden.
That is not a relationship, it is an analogy. Your analogy does not explain how both definitions relates to each other.
Yes it does. I've explained the analogy and how it explains the relationship in great detail earlier in the thread. Go back and read it.

That sociopaths do not want power?
Sociopaths are individuals with a PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER, not individuals conspiring to overthrow POLITICAL REGIMES.
So, then you argue that sociopaths would not seek political power?

That government does not provide a position of power?
Not exclusively for SOCIOPATHS.
Never claimed it did.

I never claimed that government departments offer jobs exclusively to sociopaths (though an argument could be made for military positions, they cater more to psychopaths, than sociopaths)

Western military institutions does not accept individual with PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER. Western military institutions selects the most physically and mentally health individuals.
Uh huh. And then trains them to be soulless killers.  Roll Eyes

I simply claimed that sociopaths are uniquely suited to achieving government office, and that they would seek government office, because of the power such a position offers.

A claim of false premises. SOCIOPATHS are not suited to achieve government offices, they are individuals with PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER.
No? They're not uniquely suited?
They can't lie convincingly?
They can't present an outward appearance of benevolence, regardless of what is behind the mask?
They can't convince people to like them?

These are the defining characteristics of sociopaths, and also, you'll note, politicians.

In a free society the damage sociopaths can cause to society will finally be limited to what they can accomplish via their own efforts instead of amplified by access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation.

Provide evidence that any diagnosed SOCIOPATH has 'access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation'.

Otherwise, your statement is false.
Adolph Hitler. Benito Mussolini. Kim Jong-il. Joseph Stalin. Do I really need to continue?

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December 01, 2012, 05:29:45 PM
 #76

Sociopaths also will exist in AnCap, and render their personal brand of hell in all their ways within such a society as well. What is your point again?
In a free society the damage sociopaths can cause to society will finally be limited to what they can accomplish via their own efforts instead of amplified by access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation.

What you mean, then, is they could never be worse than, say, someone like Hitler, as they gain wealth and power and a following? Nothing in AnCap precludes the accumulation of wealth, weapons, leverage through business, influence and followers. Good try, though.
Everything in AnCap, however, precludes the use of those resources for conquest.

A business built on producing high-quality automobiles will have a hard time turning into a military force.

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December 01, 2012, 05:35:27 PM
 #77

Sociopaths also will exist in AnCap, and render their personal brand of hell in all their ways within such a society as well. What is your point again?
In a free society the damage sociopaths can cause to society will finally be limited to what they can accomplish via their own efforts instead of amplified by access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation.

What you mean, then, is they could never be worse than, say, someone like Hitler, as they gain wealth and power and a following? Nothing in AnCap precludes the accumulation of wealth, weapons, leverage through business, influence and followers. Good try, though.
Everything in AnCap, however, precludes the use of those resources for conquest.

A business built on producing high-quality automobiles will have a hard time turning into a military force.

What nonsense. Is AnCap only composed of automobile production companies? Does not AnCap also have people, weapons manufacturers, money, external suppliers, recessions, disenchanted individuals, criminals, defense companies, hatred, sociopaths, influential people, wealthy people, etc., etc., etc?

And besides, who do you think built tanks and airplanes in the U.S. during WWII?
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December 01, 2012, 05:47:37 PM
 #78

Sociopaths also will exist in AnCap, and render their personal brand of hell in all their ways within such a society as well. What is your point again?
In a free society the damage sociopaths can cause to society will finally be limited to what they can accomplish via their own efforts instead of amplified by access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation.

What you mean, then, is they could never be worse than, say, someone like Hitler, as they gain wealth and power and a following? Nothing in AnCap precludes the accumulation of wealth, weapons, leverage through business, influence and followers. Good try, though.
Everything in AnCap, however, precludes the use of those resources for conquest.

A business built on producing high-quality automobiles will have a hard time turning into a military force.

What nonsense. Is AnCap only composed of automobile production companies? Does not AnCap also have people, weapons manufacturers, money, external suppliers, recessions, disenchanted individuals, criminals, defense companies, hatred, sociopaths, influential people, wealthy people, etc., etc., etc?

And besides, who do you think built tanks and airplanes in the U.S. during WWII?
Yes, an automobile manufacturer could switch to making tanks. or bombs. But who will drive those tanks? Who will drop those bombs?

What I am saying that workers in industry do not, and cannot, become soldiers overnight simply because their employer wishes it. Defense agencies are geared and staffed for defense, not offense. He would have to build, with his own money - or an external bankroll - a private army comprised solely of thugs and criminals. He would then have to take that private army, and set it against not only the defense agencies - businesses built around stopping exactly this sort of thing - but also every armed citizen in the region, who will be fighting to defend their homes.

Who do you think is going to win that fight?

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December 01, 2012, 05:54:02 PM
 #79

Sociopaths also will exist in AnCap, and render their personal brand of hell in all their ways within such a society as well. What is your point again?
In a free society the damage sociopaths can cause to society will finally be limited to what they can accomplish via their own efforts instead of amplified by access to armies, nuclear weapons, police forces and taxation.

What you mean, then, is they could never be worse than, say, someone like Hitler, as they gain wealth and power and a following? Nothing in AnCap precludes the accumulation of wealth, weapons, leverage through business, influence and followers. Good try, though.
Everything in AnCap, however, precludes the use of those resources for conquest.

A business built on producing high-quality automobiles will have a hard time turning into a military force.

What nonsense. Is AnCap only composed of automobile production companies? Does not AnCap also have people, weapons manufacturers, money, external suppliers, recessions, disenchanted individuals, criminals, defense companies, hatred, sociopaths, influential people, wealthy people, etc., etc., etc?

And besides, who do you think built tanks and airplanes in the U.S. during WWII?
Yes, an automobile manufacturer could switch to making tanks. or bombs. But who will drive those tanks? Who will drop those bombs?

What I am saying that workers in industry do not, and cannot, become soldiers overnight simply because their employer wishes it. Defense agencies are geared and staffed for defense, not offense. He would have to build, with his own money - or an external bankroll - a private army comprised solely of thugs and criminals. He would then have to take that private army, and set it against not only the defense agencies - businesses built around stopping exactly this sort of thing - but also every armed citizen in the region, who will be fighting to defend their homes.

Who do you think is going to win that fight?

I think you need to read history and learn how rulers rise to power. It's amazing how you apply such a lack of imagination to ideas which challenge your dream society. Regarding AnCap, I can't think of a more optimal playground for a power grab.
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December 01, 2012, 06:05:16 PM
 #80

I think you need to read history and learn how rulers rise to power. It's amazing how you apply such a lack of imagination to ideas which challenge your dream society. Regarding AnCap, I can't think of a more optimal playground for a power grab.

Since you clearly have this well-planned out, if you were making a power grab in an AnCap society, just how would you go about it?

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