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Author Topic: us fiscal cliff: what is it?  (Read 3738 times)
paulie_w (OP)
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December 02, 2012, 03:34:27 PM
 #1

can someone explain it in simple terms, holding back on the paranoia a little.

what is it?
what is it going to accomplish for the united states?
why?
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December 02, 2012, 05:04:35 PM
 #2

can someone explain it in simple terms

in the u.s. the economy is running at a 15 trillion dollar pace (gdp 15 trillion a year).  

but the government is borrowing over a trillion dollars a year and spending in the economy.   so take away that spending and the gdp will likely drop.  a dropping gdp is the definition of a recession.

to "keep the party going" congress would need to borrow more, but there is a "debt ceiling" law preventing that from occurring.

so without the power of being able to use fiscal policy (taxing and spending by the government) to avoid recession, the term fiscal cliff describes what awaits.

this started in 2007, 2008.  instead of dealing with the problem then, instead there was tarp, then "stimulus", qe1, qe2, and now qe-eternity and the can got kicked to where it lies today.  simply kicking the can causes a bigger, heavier can and trying to kick the can further now could break your foot.

so tricks and politics have led us here, to the edge of the fiscal cliff.   enjoy the view because it is going to get ugly real soon,
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December 02, 2012, 05:36:15 PM
 #3

In 2011 the president wanted to raise the 'debt ceiling', the maximum amount of money the federal government can borrow by law.

The Republicans would only approve the deal if there was a provision for massive spending cuts at the end of this year.  This also coincides with Bush-era tax cuts ending.  The intent was to intentionally paint the government into a corner, so that they would have to come up with a plan that Democrats and Republicans could agree on.

I believe the numbers I heard was that the total impact would end up being a 1/2% reduction in the United States GDP, but I don't have a source for that now.  Corrections are welcome.

Some people thing this reduction would hurt the recovering economy, possibly causing recession.

TLDR: Politicians played games so they could increase government debt while saying they were against it, and now they're playing games to show either they're (a) anti-deficit and the other guys want to raise working peoples taxes, or (b) the other guys don't think the rich should pay their fair share, want to raise taxes for everyone, and slash government programs.
paulie_w (OP)
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December 02, 2012, 05:48:02 PM
 #4

is a 1/2 % reduction in GDP really that big of a deal? why is everyone making so much of a fuss about it?

is a "recession" really that bad if that's all that happens, or is the concern that it will lead to some kind of a chain reaction?
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December 02, 2012, 07:40:41 PM
 #5

is a 1/2 % reduction in GDP really that big of a deal? why is everyone making so much of a fuss about it?

is a "recession" really that bad if that's all that happens, or is the concern that it will lead to some kind of a chain reaction?

Well the important number isn't amount of total GDP, but how it cuts into growth.  Average annual GDP growth is 3%.  If we had 4% GDP growth before, and subtracted a half percent after, we're still above average.  If we're already in recessionary 1.1% GDP, and get knocked down to 0.6% that's basically kicking the economy while it's down.

But I don't think it's as doom-and-gloom as the media tries to make things out, and I think there will be a compromise, although that might be a few weeks into 2013.
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December 02, 2012, 08:20:18 PM
Last edit: December 02, 2012, 08:45:30 PM by Lethn
 #6

The growth that the establishment economists are talking about is phony, the reason it's going to have such a 'catastrophic' effect is because it is forcing companies to stop unproductive businesses that aren't making anything which is what a big percentage of western countries are made up of, they can't tax the private sector any more to get their money because there is barely any private sector left and they can't borrow the money because no one wants to lend any more. For years now we've essentially been leeching off countries like Germany and China that are production based economies whereas the countries that most of us live in don't make anything and don't have anything of value so the whole system is collapsing in on itself.

So really in simple terms, the fiscal cliff is the end of a long running con that many western countries have been perpetrating and many stupid pillocks have been voting for unwittingly because they didn't know any better and they seem to think that the politicians are actually capable of keeping it going judging by the fact they've re-elected Obama for the second fucking time. I think I'm going to avoid using the word fiscal cliff because I think this is actually some made up PR word to make the people think people less of the situation they're in, I actually think what they're talking about is a recession/depression and it's going to come in hard on the U.S

Edit: Here's a little link where Peter Schiff explains pretty well what's going on with the U.S economy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlWpGm9POwQ

In my opinion Fiscal Cliff = Recession/Depression PR word
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December 02, 2012, 09:07:24 PM
 #7

is a 1/2 % reduction in GDP really that big of a deal? why is everyone making so much of a fuss about it?

is a "recession" really that bad if that's all that happens, or is the concern that it will lead to some kind of a chain reaction?

The Fed is buying up treasuries... in other words lending money to the Federal Government.  Treasury prices move inversely to interest rates.  The government can't afford for interest rates to rise, without the Fed writing down their debt, which other (foreign) investors might see as a default, and will certainly add inflationary pressure.  In order to keep rates down, they must buy more and more treasuries.  Operation twist has been the Fed buying long term treasuries (to keep the long term interest rate low) using proceeds from selling short term treasuries (on the open market).  This would normally drive the short term rates up, but there is plenty of demand from outside investors who want to exchange their long term US debt for bonds that mature sooner.

Unless the winds change, Operation Twist will come to an end in January 2013.

Now think of the market minus this distortion.

The Fed's buying pressure ceases ending the support of the long term prices (they stop holding long term rates down).  The selling pressure ceases ending the resistance to the short term prices (they stop the upward pressure to short term rates).  Sure, many bond investors will recognize this, but it takes a while to turn a market of that size.  The market (in the short term) will drive down the short term rates, spurring cheap, short-term lending/refinancing (the kind of debt that people pay off), but decreasing investor appetite.  The market will simultaneously drive up the long term rates, increasing investor appetite but at the cost of interest rate increases on mortgages and other long term loans.  However, QE-infinity involves purchasing mortgages, so the hope is that they can at least keep rates low there.

The spiking long term rate will add leverage to force the politicians to fix the cluster-fuck they have created, at the expense of the long term debt markets.  This will hurt corporations who rely on financing for construction projects, but many corporations are flush with cash now.

Cash will be king soon, but its reign won't last.

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paulie_w (OP)
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December 02, 2012, 09:51:35 PM
 #8

For years now we've essentially been leeching off countries like Germany and China that are production based economies whereas the countries that most of us live in don't make anything and don't have anything of value so the whole system is collapsing in on itself.

i thought the united states had a huge manufacturing base, second only to china?
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December 02, 2012, 09:56:57 PM
 #9

For years now we've essentially been leeching off countries like Germany and China that are production based economies whereas the countries that most of us live in don't make anything and don't have anything of value so the whole system is collapsing in on itself.

i thought the united states had a huge manufacturing base, second only to china?

The manufacturing is largely defense related (government expenditure).  China manufactures consumer goods.

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December 03, 2012, 06:50:47 AM
 #10

For years now we've essentially been leeching off countries like Germany and China that are production based economies whereas the countries that most of us live in don't make anything and don't have anything of value so the whole system is collapsing in on itself.

i thought the united states had a huge manufacturing base, second only to china?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAA!!!!!

^_^

Quote

The manufacturing is largely defense related (government expenditure).  China manufactures consumer goods.

This guy has it right, a lot of America is made up of military spending, hence why you have people that rant about the military industrial complex which is what that is.
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December 03, 2012, 09:38:00 AM
 #11

Basically the US economy will cease to exist in 1-2 years.
paulie_w (OP)
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December 03, 2012, 12:37:24 PM
 #12

are you guys sure?

http://en.mercopress.com/2011/03/15/china-became-world-s-top-manufacturing-nation-ending-110-year-us-leadership

http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2011/12/27/top-10-countries-for-manufacturing-production-in-2010-china-usa-japan-germany/
paulie_w (OP)
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December 03, 2012, 12:37:52 PM
 #13

Basically the US economy will cease to exist in 1-2 years.

come on i asked for no super-paranoid stuff. :-)
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December 03, 2012, 12:42:34 PM
 #14

It's actually a pretty real possibility, obviously the country itself isn't going to cease to exist lol but perhaps something will happen to the current federal government for sure.
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December 03, 2012, 02:18:24 PM
 #15

can someone explain it in simple terms, holding back on the paranoia a little. . .

Something I put together for a friend recently (paranoia free):

The fiscal cliff is a combination of 2 budget related events that are scheduled to occur at the same time.

Part 1:
In 2001 and 2003, there were legislative efforts to make significant changes in the areas of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code.  These changes would have the effect of significantly reducing revenue for the U.S.  There was already in place a rule in the U.S. Senate that allowed Senators to block any budget changes which would significantly increase the federal deficit beyond ten years.  To get around this rule (and the Senators who would use it to block the legislation), the changes were written to expire on January 1, 2011.  At that time, if no further efforts to extend the law were successful, all the changes to the U.S. Internal Revenue Code would revert back to the way it was (higher taxes, increased revenue).

In 2010, the U.S. was in a period of economic recession.  There was a fear that increasing the tax burden on businesses and individuals at that time would only deepen and increase the duration of the recession.  Those who sided with President Obama on the matter, wanted to create a new law that would maintain the lower tax burden on those earning less than $250,000 while allowing the changes to revert back to pre-2001 for those earning more.  Those who did not side with the President wanted to extend the duration of the lower tax burden for everyone, including those earning more than $250,000.  A compromise was worked out that would maintain the post-2001 changes for everyone until January 1, 2013 and would give President and his supporters some other things they wanted that might otherwise have been difficult to get through Congress.

This means that on January 1, 2013, unless the legislators in Congress can come to an agreement on how to deal with the situation, the tax U.S. Internal Revenue Code changes that were made in 2001 and 2003 will expire and most individuals in the U.S. will see an increase in their tax burden in 2013 as compared to the years since 2001.  This increase in revenue does not automatically trigger any increase in spending and, while it would significantly reduce the federal deficit, many see it as a significant hindrance to U.S. economic activity, possibly enough to push the country back into another economic recession.  President Obama and his supporters are once again asking for an extension of the lower tax burden for those earning less than $250,000 while allowing the tax burden to revert to pre-2001 levels on those earning more than $250,000, suggesting that the increased revenue from those higher earners is necessary to reduce the federal deficit.  Those who do not side with the President want instead to extend the lower the tax burden indefinitely for everyone and deal with deficit reduction through spending cuts.

Part 2:
The United States has this silly law created in 1917 often referred to as the "debt ceiling".  This law does not prevent Congress from creating budgets that increase the national debt, it simply prevents the government from issuing new bonds to cover the costs of that increased spending.  The national budget and the debt ceiling are two completely separate processes that happen at different times.  Congress can at any time they find it necessary vote to increase the debt ceiling in order to continue to issue bonds to cover the budgeted spending. In 2010 (or early 2011, I can't remember), the U.S. Congress passed a budget that would increase the national debt beyond the debt ceiling in the summer of 2011.  The assumption was that the debt ceiling would later be increased as it had been regularly (over 80 times) in the past. At this time there were some members in congress who wanted to significantly reduce spending to reduce the deficit and preferably reduce the debt.  Being a minority of the Congress, they didn't get the spending cuts they wanted. Since the debt ceiling places a limit on the ability of the government to pay obligations it has already incurred, these members of congress decided that they could use the potential damage to the country of being incapable of raising additional funds as leverage to get concessions from the majority that they otherwise might not have been able to get.  Breaking a filibuster in the Senate requires 60% of Senators to agree, meaning that a 40% minority can prevent a new law from being passed.  Essentially a minority of members in Congress held the country's debt ceiling hostage until the majority of members met their demands.

A compromise was eventually reached whereby the debt ceiling would be increased (under the current budget it will need to be increased again in February of 2013) and some spending cuts would be made.  In addition as part of the compromise, a law was passed that required the Congress to find another compromise to cut $1.5 trillion.  A deadline of December 23, 2011 was placed in the law to find this compromise. To give all parties in Congress an incentive to work out a compromise, if they failed to do so by the deadline then there would be an automatic across-the-board cuts of spending split equally between defense and non-defense programs.  These automatic cuts were scheduled to occur on January 1, 2013.  Supposedly the idea was to create a financial situation severe enough that all parties involved would be willing to compromise.  Congress failed to find a compromise they could all agree to.  I suspect that each side thought that they'd fare better after the November 2012 election and figured they'd just wait until December 2012 to use the results of the election as leverage to get what they want.

This means that on January 1, 2013, unless the legislators in Congress can come to an agreement on how to deal with the situation, U.S. government spending will be cut substantially without consideration to the value of the programs receiving the cuts. Many see this decrease in government spending as a significant hindrance to U.S. economic activity, possibly enough to push the country back into another economic recession.

Fiscal Cliff:
Given the explanation above, on January 1, 2013 if no further action is taken, federal income tax rates for most people will increase to what they were prior to 2001 and the government will cut spending by well over $1 trillion.  While this will have the benefit of significantly reducing the deficit, there are many who believe that pulling that much money out of a fragile economy that is still working its way out of a recent recession could bring about an economic depression worse than the country has ever experienced in the past.



TLDR; In 2010 the government extended the "Bush Tax Cuts" to Jan. 1, 2013.  In 2011 the government scheduled over $1 trillion in across-the-board spending cuts to take effect on Jan. 1, 2013.  The "Fiscal Cliff" is the idea that the increased taxes and reduced spending would pull too much money out of an economy that is recovering from a recession and could create a severe economic depression. One of the possible benefits of the "Fiscal Cliff" is that, if the economy doesn't completely collapse, it will result in a substantially smaller deficit.
paulie_w (OP)
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December 03, 2012, 02:49:52 PM
 #16

thanks danny, all clear!
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December 04, 2012, 01:55:20 PM
 #17

Also on Quora.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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December 04, 2012, 02:29:59 PM
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Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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December 04, 2012, 02:37:49 PM
 #19

The "Fiscal Cliff" is nothing more than a bunch of fear mongering and propaganda from politicians who don't want
you to complain when you get a tax increase enema. "I'm sure glad I can more taxes so
we could avoid that fiscal cliff".

They need to increase taxes to try and curb the coming increase in inflation to the US Dollar.
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December 04, 2012, 11:10:25 PM
 #20

can someone explain it in simple terms, holding back on the paranoia a little.

what is it?
what is it going to accomplish for the united states?
why?

Long shot guess is planned economic collapse to usher in the 21/12/12 Mayan Apocalypse/End of Days as a self-fulfilling prophesy method to bring about the second coming of the Messiah and thus a new system of religious control. Or maybe press hyperbole.

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WALLET




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