Bitcoin Forum
November 03, 2024, 05:45:46 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 28.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Bitcoin Credit Union?  (Read 3256 times)
DeathAndTaxes (OP)
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079


Gerald Davis


View Profile
December 03, 2012, 02:55:57 PM
Last edit: December 03, 2012, 04:02:37 PM by DeathAndTaxes
 #1

First, no Tangible Cryptography is not looking to start a Bitcoin Credit Union (well at least not in 2012 Smiley ).

In the US a large portion of the regulatory costs comes from state regulation.  So what happens if tomorrow FinCEN states that Bitcoin exchanges are money transmitters?  Simply register with FinCEN as a money transmitter, a type of MSB (Money Service Business).  Easy right?  Well no.  Registration as a MT under FinCEN MSB program would be a defacto admission to the states the entity is engaging in money transmission.   This is an activity that most (32 IIRC) states regulate.  Even worse there are at least nine state which regulate this activity even if the business is not in the state. As an example if your service is available to NJ residents you must register as a MT in NJ even if your business is not located in NJ.  So for example if you wanted to comply with MT requirements it would mean filing, approval, reporting and compliance to 11 different entities (FinCEN + your home state + 9 states which require outside entities to register).    Wow your regulatory burden just exploded.   Now it gets even more fun.  Each of those 32+ states is continually changing requirements all the time.  In any particular year the odds are at least one state makes a material change.  So throw on top the need to continual legal counsel and some quarterly research costs just to remain you don't accidentally become non-compliant due to a rule change in any of the individual states.  Most MT simply register with all states (even ones they don't need to) in order to ensure they aren't caught in some future legal entanglement.  A hypothetical example would be NV considers your company affiliate program to be a nexus in Nevada and thus your non-registration as a MT is a violation of NV law despite your business not being in Nevada and Nevada not regulating outside Money Transmitters.

So why a Bitcoin credit union?  Credit Union's are federal charters.  There is significant case law which puts they outside the reach of state regulators.  For the record so are national banks but it is much "easier" (but still difficult) to get a CU charter then it is to get a bank charter. Deposit entities (like CU) aren't required to have more than one branch and with online banking it is possible to establish a national footprint.  Bitcoin supporters could even have their paychecks deposited into a Bitcoin credit union (and thus gain the ability to instantly convert some or all of that into Bitcoins).  Funds would be FDIC insured just like any other CU/Bank.  

Granted this isn't something which could be done easily or cheaply but it isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Startup costs are in the tens of thousands.   Charter application requires 3,000 signatures (technically as low as 500 but that requires additional evidence of support).  The entity would need to maintain a couple million in deposits (say 2,000 depositors depositing an average of $1,500 each with a couple of major contributors putting in the FDIC NCUSIF max of $250K ea).   An option to ensure minimum deposit requirements would be to have initial deposits held as an interest bearing 5 year CDs giving the new entity some time to build up a membership and deposit base.  The minimal ongoing costs would be maybe half a million to a million (total back of napkin estimate,  say $400K in salaries, $100K in outside auditing, $50K building/rent/etc, $120K in interest,  $10K in FDIC NCUSIF insurance premiums, etc).  Obviously a full featured financial institution would have much higher costs but it also would likely have much larger deposit base and revenue.

The entity wouldn't need to engage in fractional reserve or even offer loans.  If it did the profit from those loans (assuming loans are profitable) would lower the costs of members.   CU are allowed to charge a membership fee (most don't in order to attract depositors).  If the CU became a very large exchange then exchange fees could cover a large portion of the operating costs ($100M @ 1% = $1M revenue).  

Anyways just wondering if anyone has looked into this.

blueadept
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 225
Merit: 101


View Profile
December 03, 2012, 03:01:02 PM
 #2

Nitpick: FDIC isn't the entity that provides credit union deposit insurance. NCUA is.

Like my posts?  Connect with me on LinkedIn and endorse my "Bitcoin" skill.
Decentralized, instant off-chain payments.
hazek
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003


View Profile
December 03, 2012, 03:02:11 PM
 #3

Or you could stand your ground and make them go to court and try and prove that bitcoins are money.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
laughingbear
Deflationary champion
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 622
Merit: 500


www.cryptobetfair.com


View Profile WWW
December 03, 2012, 03:38:48 PM
 #4

Or you could stand your ground and make them go to court and try and prove that bitcoins are money.

Good luck with that. According to Bernanke, gold isn't even money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dj9v9s9buk
DeathAndTaxes (OP)
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079


Gerald Davis


View Profile
December 03, 2012, 03:44:17 PM
 #5

Or you could stand your ground and make them go to court and try and prove that bitcoins are money.

Ok Bitcoin is money and now any exchanger is subject to all the state regulations regarding money transmission.  That was kinda the whole point. Eventually FinCEN will make a definititive declaration that Bitcoins is money (unlikely) or that Bitcoin is a currency substitute and thus Bitcoin related enterprises to both federal and state regulation.

"Standing ones ground and taking them to court" would simply make that day arrive sooner.
Elwar
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386


Viva Ut Vivas


View Profile WWW
December 03, 2012, 03:45:06 PM
 #6


Anyways just wondering if anyone has looked into this.


There has been discussion here about this.

First seastead company actually selling sea homes: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders  Of course we accept bitcoin.
hazek
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003


View Profile
December 03, 2012, 04:06:52 PM
 #7

Or you could stand your ground and make them go to court and try and prove that bitcoins are money.

Ok Bitcoin is money and now any exchanger is subject to all the state regulations regarding money transmission.  That was kinda the whole point. Eventually FinCEN will make a definititive declaration that Bitcoins is money (unlikely) or that Bitcoin is a currency substitute and thus Bitcoin related enterprises to both federal and state regulation.

"Standing ones ground and taking them to court" would simply make that day arrive sooner.

Listen to yourself. You want to beg them to beat us up? According to their rules we aren't doing anything wrong right now, why poke the pile of crap and invite them to change their rules sooner rather than later?

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
DeathAndTaxes (OP)
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079


Gerald Davis


View Profile
December 03, 2012, 04:16:13 PM
Last edit: December 03, 2012, 04:47:03 PM by DeathAndTaxes
 #8

Are you having a reading comprehension problem?

YOU not ME said "stand your ground and make them go to court and try and prove that bitcoins are money".  My opening OP had "So what happens if tomorrow FinCEN states that Bitcoin exchanges are money transmitters?"  i.e. the premise is AFTER FinCEN has already begun to regulate Bitcoin related commerce (at least where they can = interaction with fiat money systems).

I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO OPEN A BITCOIN CREDIT UNION.
hazek
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003


View Profile
December 03, 2012, 04:45:48 PM
 #9

I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO OPEN A BITCOIN CREDIT UNION

Your OP was unclear on this part and I understood the exact opposite. Given that that isn't true I retract everything I said.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
Stephen Gornick
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010


View Profile
December 03, 2012, 06:38:25 PM
 #10

Startup costs are in the tens of thousands.

Tens of thousands?  Tens of thousands of bitcoins maybe, or more like hundreds of thousands of bitcoins.

Green Dot (MoneyPak) faced a similar problem.   Instead of begging banks to let it expand its service offerings, it simply bought one and became a bank itself.   (well, not "simply", it cost $16 million to buy one of the smallest solvent banks that was on the market).

Oh, and they have a former FinCEN staffer on their payroll, which helps get these types of deals approved:
 - http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeff-ross/10/32b/439

Unichange.me

            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █


SgtSpike
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005



View Profile
December 04, 2012, 04:48:28 PM
 #11

I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO OPEN A BITCOIN CREDIT UNION

Your OP was unclear on this part and I understood the exact opposite. Given that that isn't true I retract everything I said.
"First, no Tangible Cryptography is not looking to start a Bitcoin Credit Union (well at least not in 2012 Smiley )." is unclear?   Huh
imfed
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0



View Profile WWW
December 04, 2012, 11:00:19 PM
 #12

Very interesting that the USA are in this case less integrated than the EU.

Paypal prefers 48 different state licenses as Money Transmitter over buying/starting a US bank or credit union. (In Europe they started as an EU-wide licensed E-Money Issuer (based in UK) and now are operating a bank in Luxembourg.)
https://www.paypal-media.com/licenses

I like the idea of a Bitcoin user powered credit union that provides a regulatory framework for Bitcoin-to-fiat-money transactions but agree with Stephen Gornick that buying a bank is easier (much faster, maybe cheaper as well) than starting your own bank or CU.

Maybe this article about Paypal's regulatory situation in 2002 might be helpful:
http://www.zdnet.com/news/fdic-decides-paypals-no-bank/121346

As MTs need licenses in each state it is possible to register on a state-by-state basis after a regulator complains there. For Paypal, it was the easier way to grow slowly that way.
matthewh3
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003



View Profile WWW
December 09, 2012, 12:33:15 AM
 #13

Yeah a bitcoin credit union would be a good thing but maybe like you said difficult to set up.  So maybe what we need to happen is for a pre existing credit union start excepting bitcoin deposits.  I tried mentioning bitcoin deposits to these guys -  https://lawfulbank.com/Welcome - on there Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Lawful-Bank/255894521116950 - but they basically said bitcoin project is too immature and has to go a long way before there'd consider that.

sunnankar
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1031
Merit: 1000



View Profile WWW
December 11, 2012, 05:40:10 PM
 #14

My opening OP had "So what happens if tomorrow FinCEN states that Bitcoin exchanges are money transmitters?"  i.e. the premise is AFTER FinCEN has already begun to regulate Bitcoin related commerce (at least where they can = interaction with fiat money systems).

Congress is going to have a very difficult time defining a bitcoin without it failing constitutional muster for being overly broad or void for vagueness. Due to the criminal law applications a court will most likely have to issue an advisory opinion which could easily be brought by just about anyone because anyone can easily have standing. Then FinCEN is going to have a very difficult writing any rules to implement Congress' statute.

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!