How Many Bitcoins do you own?

[Vladimir]

Bitcoin have properties which makes it good both as currency AND as store of value. Unlike anything else known to mankind.

Well, gold has much better properties as a currency, I cannot double spend it, even if I have 51% of all the mining power, and it's more widely accepted, for now.

Also over 9000

Can you teleport gold?
Can you hide it so that a guy with a metal detector cannot find it?

[1714077211]

1714077211

[1714077211]

1714077211

[realnowhereman]

Bitcoin have properties which makes it good both as currency AND as store of value. Unlike anything else known to mankind.

Well, gold has much better properties as a currency, I cannot double spend it, even if I have 51% of all the mining power, and it's more widely accepted, for now.

Also over 9000

Of course you can double spend it.

Take one bar.  Cut it in half.  Mix it with lead.  Make two bars.  Or whatever, ask a metallurgist.

The point is, I need to verify gold that you might give me.  I need to verify Bitcoins that you might give me.  Note as well that even with 51% of the hashing power, you still can't double spend forever.  One chain has to be the true one in the end.  All you can do is fool me for a while, just like with gold.

Being more widely accepted is purely a matter of history and chance.  Who knows what will happen to Bitcoin's acceptance?  Let's look again when Bitcoin trading is as old as gold trading is now to decide that one.

[davout]

Can you teleport gold?

No, I can pay with pecunix et al. though.

Can you hide it so that a guy with a metal detector cannot find it?

You mean bitcoin is easily transportable ? Through borders for example ?

Yes, fair enough.

But you seem to fail to realize that the first desirable property of a currency is acceptance.

And *currently* gold is much better than bitcoin in that respect.

Of course you can double spend it.

You're describing making fake gold, not double spending gold. Bitcoin is much better than gold for forgery protection.

Note as well that even with 51% of the hashing power, you still can't double spend forever.

Yes you can.

One chain has to be the true one in the end.

There is no such thing as the absolute "true chain", it's all relative to a point in time, owning the network enables you to switch which chain is regarder as the "true one" at will. All first spends in double spends will reside in orphan blocks. No limit here.

All you can do is fool me for a while, just like with gold.

Theoretically there is absolutely no way for you to even be aware that the network is dominated by someone with >51% of the network.

Being more widely accepted is purely a matter of history and chance.

Yes

Let's look again when Bitcoin trading is as old as gold trading is now to decide that one.

I'm not saying that gold is a better currency than bitcoin. I'm simply arguing that on this shitty and rainy 7th of June 2011, gold has much better currency properties than bitcoin. And of course I humbly admit that I haven't got a fucking clue about whether this is going to be a revolution or a failure.

[Vladimir]

davout, I am not arguing that gold is useless, it has quite a few things going for it... so is bitcoin and yet bitcoin is new and not proven and it's price does reflect those risks.

I suppose that we will just have to agree to agree here 

[Litt]

you guys have so many its un believable 

[rezin777]

you guys have so many its un believable 

I haven't seen anyone post a sizable amount yet! Well... maybe "over 9000" is a decent amount.

[TheRandomGuy]

None.

[davout]

you guys have so many its un believable 

I haven't seen anyone post a sizable amount yet! Well... maybe "over 9000" is a decent amount.

I don't actually own over 9000

At some point I did but not anymore

[dayfall]

500 or so. 

[jerfelix]

you guys have so many its un believable 

I haven't seen anyone post a sizable amount yet! Well... maybe "over 9000" is a decent amount.

I posted the link to show that the top 100 people are listed as having between 6700 and 297,000
http://bitcoinreport.blogspot.com/2011/06/bitcoin-top-100-rich-list-3rd-june-2011.html

[matteumayo]

Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...

I've only been able to scrounge 10 or so BTC since then via mining... kinda depressing the more I think about it

[davout]

Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...

Don't feel bad, I sold 5K for 1500€

[Alex Beckenham]

Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...

I've only been able to scrounge 10 or so BTC since then via mining... kinda depressing the more I think about it

Don't worry, I'm sure it's being used for a good cause hookers and blow.

[matteumayo]

Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...

Don't feel bad, I sold 5K for 1500€

ouch.

Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...

I've only been able to scrounge 10 or so BTC since then via mining... kinda depressing the more I think about it

Don't worry, I'm sure it's being used for a good cause hookers and blow.

heh

[davout]

Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...

Don't feel bad, I sold 5K for 1500€

ouch.

I don't feel bad about it, it was the price at that moment.

[realnowhereman]

Of course you can double spend it.

You're describing making fake gold, not double spending gold. Bitcoin is much better than gold for forgery protection.

I'm describing the analogous situations between gold and bitcoins.  Diluting gold and spending it is analogous to a double spend in Bitcoin.

Note as well that even with 51% of the hashing power, you still can't double spend forever.

Yes you can.

No you can't.  Only one chain can be true at any one time.  Therefore one of your two transactions in a double spend will be discovered to be invalid.  You will be caught as a double spender; of course you might well have gotten away with the goods by then.  Just as if you pass diluted gold you would be caught eventually.

One chain has to be the true one in the end.

There is no such thing as the absolute "true chain", it's all relative to a point in time, owning the network enables you to switch which chain is regarder as the "true one" at will. All first spends in double spends will reside in orphan blocks. No limit here.

Exactly, which means they aren't spent any more.  In the end a double spend will turn into a single spend.  Even someone with 51% of the hash power has to pick one chain or another as "true".

All you can do is fool me for a while, just like with gold.

Theoretically there is absolutely no way for you to even be aware that the network is dominated by someone with >51% of the network.

Unless of course they are abusing that privilege to make loads of orphan chains while they double spend, in which case the remaining 49% will see it.  If they aren't doing that, then no one will care as they are an honest miner.

Let's look again when Bitcoin trading is as old as gold trading is now to decide that one.

I'm not saying that gold is a better currency than bitcoin. I'm simply arguing that on this shitty and rainy 7th of June 2011, gold has much better currency properties than bitcoin. And of course I humbly admit that I haven't got a fucking clue about whether this is going to be a revolution or a failure.

Depends what properties you want.  I've never had the urge to hold gold, but I do hold bitcoins.

The only one you've mentioned that falls in gold's favour is that has some history to it.  We might perhaps add that the current price volatility makes day-to-day use a little, shall we say, "nervewracking".  Other than that, as far as I can tell, Bitcoin wins on every point.

[REF]

That's a pretty personal question. That's like asking how much money do you have saved away in a bank?

[davout]

You're describing making fake gold, not double spending gold. Bitcoin is much better than gold for forgery protection.

I'm describing the analogous situations between gold and bitcoins.  Diluting gold and spending it is analogous to a double spend in Bitcoin.

It is not. If you make a coin that is 50% gold and 50% lead and you try to deceive people into thinking it is 100% gold that is forgery, not double spending.
If you spend this fraudulent coin once the coin is then not in your physical possession anymore, therefore you cannot spend the same coin it a second time.

No you can't.  Only one chain can be true at any one time.  Therefore one of your two transactions in a double spend will be discovered to be invalid.  You will be caught as a double spender; of course you might well have gotten away with the goods by then.  Just as if you pass diluted gold you would be caught eventually.

Double spending = making a valid spend, waiting to collect its benefits, invalidating the first spend by making a double spend.
Wait a bit, repeat. You can double spend for ever since you can have as much identities as you want.

Exactly, which means they aren't spent any more.  In the end a double spend will turn into a single spend.  Even someone with 51% of the hash power has to pick one chain or another as "true".

Of course, thats pretty obvious, it doesn't change the fact that at that point you will have spent the *same* coins twice (spend = give coins in exchange for a valuable benefit).

Unless of course they are abusing that privilege to make loads of orphan chains while they double spend, in which case the remaining 49% will see it.  If they aren't doing that, then no one will care as they are an honest miner.

Yes, unless you do it smartly and combine that with isolating nodes. We do agree that it's very unlikely/impractical.

Depends what properties you want.  I've never had the urge to hold gold, but I do hold bitcoins.

The only one you've mentioned that falls in gold's favour is that has some history to it.  We might perhaps add that the current price volatility makes day-to-day use a little, shall we say, "nervewracking".  Other than that, as far as I can tell, Bitcoin wins on every point.

You fail to see the obvious "acceptance" point, bitcoin has the potential to be much better than gold as a currency, but as of today you're much more likely to get gold accepted as a payment in exchange for whatever good/service you randomly pick on the surface of the earth, if you fail to see this simple truth you're deluding yourself.

[MadCoinMan]

I am sad to admit that I have 0 

How Many do you all have?

I might be able to buy some beers. Any pubs accepting Bitcoins yet?

[realnowhereman]

You're describing making fake gold, not double spending gold. Bitcoin is much better than gold for forgery protection.

I'm describing the analogous situations between gold and bitcoins.  Diluting gold and spending it is analogous to a double spend in Bitcoin.

It is not. If you make a coin that is 50% gold and 50% lead and you try to deceive people into thinking it is 100% gold that is forgery, not double spending.
If you spend this fraudulent coin once the coin is then not in your physical possession anymore, therefore you cannot spend the same coin it a second time.

You do know what an analogy is, right?  You are being obstinately literal minded.  Forgery is the meat space analog to bitcoin's double spend.

"To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,"

"Woah there a minute Shakespere, the sea doesn't have arms.  And you can't have a sea of trouble, the sea is made of water you dolt.  As for fortune being made of slings and arrows; well you've gone mad haven't you?  Everyone knows that fortune is an intangible concept and therefore couldn't fight you with corporeal weaponry."

No you can't.  Only one chain can be true at any one time.  Therefore one of your two transactions in a double spend will be discovered to be invalid.  You will be caught as a double spender; of course you might well have gotten away with the goods by then.  Just as if you pass diluted gold you would be caught eventually.

Double spending = making a valid spend, waiting to collect its benefits, invalidating the first spend by making a double spend.
Wait a bit, repeat. You can double spend for ever since you can have as much identities as you want.

I know what a double spend is.  I'm saying that eventually one of the two parties knows that you did it; how could they not?  Only one chain can be valid at any one time.  You cannot double spend without (eventual) detection.

Exactly, which means they aren't spent any more.  In the end a double spend will turn into a single spend.  Even someone with 51% of the hash power has to pick one chain or another as "true".

Of course, thats pretty obvious, it doesn't change the fact that at that point you will have spent the *same* coins twice (spend = give coins in exchange for a valuable benefit).

Why don't we just let this one go.  We're obviously talking at cross purposes.  When I said "you can't double spend forever", I was unclear.  I should have said "the same coins can't remain double spent forever".

Depends what properties you want.  I've never had the urge to hold gold, but I do hold bitcoins.

The only one you've mentioned that falls in gold's favour is that has some history to it.  We might perhaps add that the current price volatility makes day-to-day use a little, shall we say, "nervewracking".  Other than that, as far as I can tell, Bitcoin wins on every point.

You fail to see the obvious "acceptance" point, bitcoin has the potential to be much better than gold as a currency, but as of today you're much more likely to get gold accepted as a payment in exchange for whatever good/service you randomly pick on the surface of the earth, if you fail to see this simple truth you're deluding yourself.

Acceptance and history are the same thing it is only history that makes gold accepted; so I didn't miss the point, I accepted it.  I specifically said that that was the only property that gold had that Bitcoin didn't.