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Author Topic: Mt.Gox has a Bitcoin withdrawl limit? (Rant at operators of Mt.Gox)  (Read 4797 times)
realnowhereman
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June 07, 2011, 01:15:49 PM
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I've just tried to move Bitcoins from Mt.Gox.

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Your request was over the maximum authorized for your level of authorization for this time period. Please contact aml@mtgox.com to increase your limit. XX.XX withdrawn.

What the hell?  All that I've been saying about Bitcoins turns out to be untrue.  There are still gatekeepers imposing arbitrary limits on what I can and can't do with my own money.

If I want to move $5000, say, from the US to GBP in the UK.  I can use a bank.  That takes at least a day.  Should I want to do the same using Bitcoins, I've been boasting that I can beat the banking system no problem.  An hour at most.

Turns out that's rubbish.  I've got to wait (I presume) another day now to move those coins.  A day in Bitcoin time is glacial.  In that time, the GBP price could have changed dramatically.

Tell me, what is the point of Bitcoins if it isn't to get away from this nonsense?

Tell me, how am I going to preserve my anonymity if I have to email someone to get my "authorisation level" increased.

Tell me, why do I need authorisation to access MY MONEY.

Tell me, how was I meant to know about this before I attempted it?  There were no warnings.

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zhalox
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June 07, 2011, 01:18:23 PM
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All the more reason that we desperately need a competitor to Mt. Gox.  Mt. Gox won't be able to handle everything pretty soon...

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June 07, 2011, 01:21:33 PM
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I've just tried to move Bitcoins from Mt.Gox.

Quote
Your request was over the maximum authorized for your level of authorization for this time period. Please contact aml@mtgox.com to increase your limit. XX.XX withdrawn.

What the hell?  All that I've been saying about Bitcoins turns out to be untrue.  There are still gatekeepers imposing arbitrary limits on what I can and can't do with my own money.

If I want to move $5000, say, from the US to GBP in the UK.  I can use a bank.  That takes at least a day.  Should I want to do the same using Bitcoins, I've been boasting that I can beat the banking system no problem.  An hour at most.

Turns out that's rubbish.  I've got to wait (I presume) another day now to move those coins.  A day in Bitcoin time is glacial.  In that time, the GBP price could have changed dramatically.

Tell me, what is the point of Bitcoins if it isn't to get away from this nonsense?

Tell me, how am I going to preserve my anonymity if I have to email someone to get my "authorisation level" increased.

Tell me, why do I need authorisation to access MY MONEY.

Tell me, how was I meant to know about this before I attempted it?  There were no warnings.

What a surprise that a business is trying to follow the laws so they can continue to make money instead of get ass-pounded for it.

Bitcoin is not a license to violate laws, sorry.
Drifter
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June 07, 2011, 01:22:53 PM
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Don't blame Mt. Gox, blame the U.S. government. Tux is only following anti-money laundering laws, and to not collect more personal info from you (Like SS#), they have limits that they abide by. If you need those limits raised, thats why you need to contact them.

Furthermore Mt. Gox is NOT bitcoin, only an exchanger, and once your coins are freely in YOUR wallet, you'll be free to send them wherever to whoever and however much you want.

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June 07, 2011, 01:28:05 PM
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Tell me, how am I going to preserve my anonymity if I have to email someone to get my "authorisation level" increased.
Bitcoin is pseudo-anonymous, not mtgox.

Tell me, why do I need authorisation to access MY MONEY.
Because if mtgox makes more than 1000 USD worth of transactions per customer per day it has to register as a Money Services Business under american law. And this is even making me wonder how they can legally "raise the limit" for certain customers.

Tell me, how was I meant to know about this before I attempted it?  There were no warnings.
This is a legitimate complaint though.

Tux is only following anti-money laundering laws, and to not collect more personal info from you (Like SS#), they have limits that they abide by.
This has nothing to do with AML it has to do with getting an MSB license.

I asked a question about the limits on some other thread, as of now I didn't get any answer even though subsequent posts were addressed. On a more general manner I think mtgox should be much much clearer about how exactly they operate, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're proactively hiding this information, I'm saying that nothing is done to make it clear. To be completely honest, MagicalTux did answer pretty straightforwardly when asked about how transfers to their french bank account were managed.

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June 07, 2011, 01:33:53 PM
 #6

I'm shocked by this ..

It's understandable that they have a USD withdrawal limit (understandable to the extent of the violence threatened otherwise). But why a BTC limit? Is the limit tied to the current exchange rate? Interesting ..
tomcollins
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June 07, 2011, 01:37:43 PM
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I'm shocked by this ..

It's understandable that they have a USD withdrawal limit (understandable to the extent of the violence threatened otherwise). But why a BTC limit? Is the limit tied to the current exchange rate? Interesting ..

Because that's what they need to do to follow the law.
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June 07, 2011, 01:37:50 PM
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But why a BTC limit?
Because it's considered a store of value

Is the limit tied to the current exchange rate? Interesting ..
I think it is.

MagicalTux
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June 07, 2011, 01:45:57 PM
 #9

Hi,

I got out of a long meeting with a couple of accountants, a lawyer and a corporate specialist (dunno how to translate that from Japanese in a more accurate way).

We finally reached a conclusion on Bitcoin, and will be finally able to provide a ToS on MtGox.

Until now I have been regulating the flow of bitcoins as it could have been considered a currency (interpretation by popular definition) which would have been really bad.

We have been able to confirm that Bitcoin is /not/ a currency as per Japanese law at this point, and the most accurate definition is a security.


Because of this we will apply new limits to bitcoin withdrawals, with a different ability to lift this limit. This means it will be much easier to withdraw bitcoins soon (need to finish the ToS first).



Mark

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June 07, 2011, 01:48:47 PM
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Hi,

I got out of a long meeting with a couple of accountants, a lawyer and a corporate specialist (dunno how to translate that from Japanese in a more accurate way).

We finally reached a conclusion on Bitcoin, and will be finally able to provide a ToS on MtGox.

Until now I have been regulating the flow of bitcoins as it could have been considered a currency (interpretation by popular definition) which would have been really bad.

We have been able to confirm that Bitcoin is /not/ a currency as per Japanese law at this point, and the most accurate definition is a security.


Because of this we will apply new limits to bitcoin withdrawals, with a different ability to lift this limit. This means it will be much easier to withdraw bitcoins soon (need to finish the ToS first).



Mark

Will you also be able to provide deposits via Credit and Debit cards soon as well?

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MagicalTux
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June 07, 2011, 01:51:22 PM
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Will you also be able to provide deposits via Credit and Debit cards soon as well?

Not anytime soon.

sal002
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June 07, 2011, 01:55:46 PM
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Glad to see you back.  Mean some of those pending transactions will get process? Smiley

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MagicalTux
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June 07, 2011, 01:57:27 PM
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Glad to see you back.  Mean some of those pending transactions will get process? Smiley

Which pending transactions?

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June 07, 2011, 01:57:54 PM
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We have been able to confirm that Bitcoin is /not/ a currency as per Japanese law at this point, and the most accurate definition is a security.
I have a question for you Mark (if it's not already birru-time in japan) : when are japanese and american laws relevant to mtgox operations since there are at least two companies involved in mtgox operations, one in the US and one in Japan ?

MagicalTux
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June 07, 2011, 01:59:13 PM
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We have been able to confirm that Bitcoin is /not/ a currency as per Japanese law at this point, and the most accurate definition is a security.
I have a question for you Mark (if it's not already birru-time in japan) : when are japanese and american laws relevant to mtgox operations since there are at least two companies involved in mtgox operations, one in the US and one in Japan ?

The US company only acts as a commercial intermediary, and has no implication in the actual bitcoin exchange, just like the European company. It's hard enough to get the exchange legal in one country, we'll see later for the other countries.

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June 07, 2011, 02:01:49 PM
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You have a PM, Mark.

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realnowhereman
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June 07, 2011, 02:03:24 PM
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What a surprise that a business is trying to follow the laws so they can continue to make money instead of get ass-pounded for it.

Bitcoin is not a license to violate laws, sorry.

If I had been prevented from withdrawing dollars I would have understood.

Bitcoins are a different matter.  What exactly will be more secure because I am forced to make two entries in the block chain separated by a day instead of one?

If I deposit a lot of Bitcoins at Mybitcoin or instawallet, and try to withdraw them at once am I going to get a similar message?  I doubt it.  What's the difference then?

Tell me, how am I going to preserve my anonymity if I have to email someone to get my "authorisation level" increased.
Bitcoin is pseudo-anonymous, not mtgox.

Well, until I had to contact them I was pseudo-anonymous on Mt.Gox too.  A fact I was delighted about.

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Tell me, why do I need authorisation to access MY MONEY.
Because if mtgox makes more than 1000 USD worth of transactions per customer per day it has to register as a Money Services Business under american law. And this is even making me wonder how they can legally "raise the limit" for certain customers.

I was moving Bitcoins not dollars.

I understand that laws have to be complied with; but seriously what's the point of Bitcoin if I can get better service from the traditional banking system?  There is constant talk about how Bitcoin needs more traders and not speculators, but if I wanted to sell something in the UK using Mt.Gox's merchant API and instantly convert back to GBP, I would be screwed wouldn't I?

If I wanted to get on a plane to Mexico and buy that house that someone on here is selling, I wouldn't be able to move my bitcoins fast enough would I?

I have been keeping a small float in my Mt.Gox account, thinking that I can always move my coins about as I need them, and that it was good to have some on hand for any opportune trades.  Let's say I decide to buy something with my coins today.  Off I go to Mt.Gox and try to send them.... NOOOO, no spending my money today.

I understand that converting to and from cash will be difficult; how could it be otherwise?  Once my funds are in the Bitcoin system, they should be free though.  Removed from artificial restraint.

Perhaps I'm being unfair to Mt.Gox, it may be that the problems are all regulatory, but this really has come as a blow to me.  I have had such high hopes about Bitcoin being a truly international currency. But I see now that the rules and regulations are going to tie Bitcoin in as many knots as the traditional financial system.  In which case, I ask again: what's the point?

This is kind of good news, but the highlighted parts still make my heart sink:

Because of this we will apply new limits to bitcoin withdrawals, with a different ability to lift this limit. This means it will be much easier to withdraw bitcoins soon (need to finish the ToS first).

If it isn't completely irrelevant to me whether I keep my bitcoins at Mt.Gox, mybitcoin, instawallet or in my own client, then Bitcoins lose a huge part of their attraction -- namely that I can move them about on demand at my whim, not the whim of my bank/exchange/wallet-provider/government.


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June 07, 2011, 02:09:41 PM
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If it isn't completely irrelevant to me whether I keep my bitcoins at Mt.Gox, mybitcoin, instawallet or in my own client, then Bitcoins lose a huge part of their attraction -- namely that I can move them about on demand at my whim, not the whim of my bank/exchange/wallet-provider/government.
The very real legal risks of not complying with government rules regarding currency transfer are very relevant to the brick-and-mortar companies you want to to business with. If you don't like these rules blame the government. If you want to violate the laws that's fine but don't be surprised if people with more tangible assets to have seized don't go along with you.
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June 07, 2011, 02:10:27 PM
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If it isn't completely irrelevant to me whether I keep my bitcoins at Mt.Gox, mybitcoin, instawallet or in my own client, then Bitcoins lose a huge part of their attraction -- namely that I can move them about on demand at my whim, not the whim of my bank/exchange/wallet-provider/government.

If you're concerned about having complete control of your coins, I would suggest keeping them in your wallet until it is necessary to do something with them. Any time you forfeit control over your money, you have forfeited control of your money...
MagicalTux
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June 07, 2011, 02:11:15 PM
 #20

This is kind of good news, but the highlighted parts still make my heart sink:

Because of this we will apply new limits to bitcoin withdrawals, with a different ability to lift this limit. This means it will be much easier to withdraw bitcoins soon (need to finish the ToS first).

If it isn't completely irrelevant to me whether I keep my bitcoins at Mt.Gox, mybitcoin, instawallet or in my own client, then Bitcoins lose a huge part of their attraction -- namely that I can move them about on demand at my whim, not the whim of my bank/exchange/wallet-provider/government.

"New limits" doesn't mean "lower limits", more like "more adapted limits" (will be online this week). Users will be able to increase their limit as they wish, as the limit will only have one purpose: avoiding some random stranger to empty completely your hard earned bitcoins because they stole your mtgox password.

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