[POLL] Should BFL get a Scammer tag?

[wdBTCtrader]

This a public forum and I am on topic so for "f*cks sake" grow up. 

No you are not. This poll is about BFL. If you wish create one for bASIC. And for Avalon.

Please see the preceding post..

[Frizz23]

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.

This poll is about BFL. If you wish create one for bASIC. And for Avalon.

[wdBTCtrader]

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.

This poll is about BFL. If you wish create one for bASIC. And for Avalon.

why should it not be any ASIC company?  I'm just curious about motives for the poll.

[bitmar]

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.

This poll is about BFL. If you wish create one for bASIC. And for Avalon.

why should it not be any ASIC company?  I'm just curious about motives for the poll.

The question should be: "why should it not be any amateur ASIC company? "

[Frizz23]

why should it not be any ASIC company?  I'm just curious about motives for the poll.

Again: Create your own poll for bASIC or Avalon if it pleases you.

I started a BFL poll because they are blatant liars. ChipGeek/ab8989 wrote nice comments. BitSyncom concluded by saying: "I didn't want to entering a fight of words originally, but I am going to say it now. they lied and I'm disappointed."
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129566.msg1392696#msg1392696

[willphase]

Scammer tag implies premeditated intent to scam. I don't not think bfl matches this description. All that's happened is that they've been hit by a number of unfortunate events beyond their control.

I therefore vote no.

Will

Disclosure: I have FPGA minirig and stand to gain by delays in ASIC shipping dates.

[creativex]

All that's happened is that they've been hit by a number of unfortunate events beyond their control.

I don't buy that. Sure they blame everyone but themselves, but that doesn't make it so. They were months from being prepared to ship in October when they sold pre-orders based on that fairy tale shipping schedule. At every stage they've had a chance to level with their customers, but have instead chosen to deceive. Even recently BFL_Josh was on these very forums suggesting that they could still receive chips in the next couple weeks and ship products before the end of the year, but that's complete nonsense when measured against other comments from the same man.

[wdBTCtrader]

why should it not be any ASIC company?  I'm just curious about motives for the poll.

Again: Create your own poll for bASIC or Avalon if it pleases you.

I started a BFL poll because they are blatant liars. ChipGeek/ab8989 wrote nice comments. BitSyncom concluded by saying: "I didn't want to entering a fight of words originally, but I am going to say it now. they lied and I'm disappointed."
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129566.msg1392696#msg1392696

This just shows me this poll is a farce and an attempt to sway public opinion in order to discredit that company.

[creativex]

Think we'd be discussing this poll if BFL hadn't lied about "scheduled shipping" dates?

[Fjordbit]

Would the scammer tag be removed once BFL ships?

I personally do think a scammer tag is warranted. It has been applied to others who promised something and couldn't deliver at the time, regardless of circumstance. For example, Nefario felt that his legal circumstance warranted his actions regarding GLBSE, and I kind of agree with him, but I also agree that him holding onto the coins and not distributing shareholder accounts warranted a scammer tag. Other examples are the PPTs that are paying back slowly.

The problem I have with BFL is not that they promised in June a delivery in October. At that point in time, I didn't really believe it and even made posts saying to expect delivery in March.

The problem I have is that a few months later when other ASIC vendors announced their products, BFL reiterated that their October date was solid. In my opinion, this caused people to not invest in ASCIMINER, and not preorder bASIC and Avalon, and instead go with BFL. In other words, BFL was pushing forward this statement to their financial gain. It's one thing when you are the only vendor in town, but when you are making statements as a means to block competition and get more money, then a scammer tag is warranted.

BFL really should have known that they would not make the October date by September. But we got statements about bullet runs and whatnot. The fact that BFL was making design adjustments as in possibly October, but seemingly as late as November shows that the initial slippage is not because of their fab, but because of BFL's design team. The fab can be blamed for this recent change in dates (to a certain point, BFL is ultimately responsible for their fab), but the other dates are all BFL.

For what it's worth, I think bASIC should also have a scammer tag. I don't get how they had a working prototype and suddenly have no design.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Would the scammer tag be removed once BFL ships?

I personally do think a scammer tag is warranted. It has been applied to others who promised something and couldn't deliver at the time, regardless of circumstance. For example, Nefario felt that his legal circumstance warranted his actions regarding GLBSE, and I kind of agree with him, but I also agree that him holding onto the coins and not distributing shareholder accounts warranted a scammer tag. Other examples are the PPTs that are paying back slowly.

The problem I have with BFL is not that they promised in June a delivery in October. At that point in time, I didn't really believe it and even made posts saying to expect delivery in March.

The problem I have is that a few months later when other ASIC vendors announced their products, BFL reiterated that their October date was solid. In my opinion, this caused people to not invest in ASCIMINER, and not preorder bASIC and Avalon, and instead go with BFL. In other words, BFL was pushing forward this statement to their financial gain. It's one thing when you are the only vendor in town, but when you are making statements as a means to block competition and get more money, then a scammer tag is warranted.

BFL really should have known that they would not make the October date by September. But we got statements about bullet runs and whatnot. The fact that BFL was making design adjustments as in possibly October, but seemingly as late as November shows that the initial slippage is not because of their fab, but because of BFL's design team. The fab can be blamed for this recent change in dates (to a certain point, BFL is ultimately responsible for their fab), but the other dates are all BFL.

For what it's worth, I think bASIC should also have a scammer tag. I don't get how they had a working prototype and suddenly have no design.

I've opt to quote the post, inferring a +1. This post makes sense.

Full Disclosure: I have not voted in the poll prior, nor now, even though this post leans me toward a certain direction.

~Bruno K~

[wdBTCtrader]

+1 Fjordbit

If the poll were presented as Fjordbit describes then I'd have no choice but to agree.  As it currently stands I must stick with no.  

[smoothie]

Plainly, the answer is yes. BFL has lied about shipping dates for months and they're still lying. They're still painting rosey pictures of their shipping plans and attempting to shift blame for the delays to an unaccountable fab. This has been done to lure in pre-orders away from other manufacturers that are actually much nearer to shipping products.

To be clear I still expect BFL to ship products, but the ROI for those recipients will be much longer than originally projected and there is an ever increasing risk that this company will run off with the funds or be forced into insolvency.

lol wow we actually agree for once.

But then again I still think you are putting sugar on the situation. time will tell what really is going on.

[Frizz23]

+1 Fjordbit

[Frizz23]

Scammer: 50
No Scammer: 24

[Third Way]

Pirate will refund me soon I believe him!

[greyscale]

Give them a bit more time before scammer tag. Although i would be starting to get a  bit worried if i had bought one of these.

[Third Way]

Give them 'til Dec 25 for a new excuse, Christmas truce and all that :3

[Fjordbit]

They likely won't release any info until January 9.

[greyhawk]

Reminder that up until now everything has happened exactly as predicted by myself on December 3rd

- Finally understanding how Asian fabs work, BFL raises their order from 20000 chips to 100000 to bump up their place in the production queue.
 - Fab decides they finally have time for that weirdo BFL company to do their miniscule run on the 11th. This is under provision no big orders from LG come in in the mean time because boy that Nexus 4 is selling like hotcakes. If that happens BFLs run is gonna be pushed back to "whenever".
 - Assuming the 11th happens and the run actually starts, you can add about 4-5 weeks for production of these things.
 - On 21st of December the world ends
 - In the middle of January the chips are finished. Inaba decides to hop in a plane and fly over to the fab to hand receive the chips. Turns out, all planes crashed during the end of the world. Instead the chips are shipped over to 'merica by boat.
 - Middle of March the chips finally arrive in what is now called the Independent State of California. Customs officials hold what they assume to be weapons grade military devices until the end of the war with Texas finally ends in a stalemate.
- 2015: ASICs arrive at BFL studios (a subsidiary of bAvalon International). No one knows what to do with them because all bitcoins were wiped out by the EMP pulse from Planet Rth'Nag'Ar.
- 2016: bAvalon strings the chips up on metal bars to produce a first-of-its-kind mathematics device they call The Abacus.