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Author Topic: Turkey´s Civil War: Fighting moving from rural areas to cities  (Read 4751 times)
bizerinm
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February 02, 2016, 09:10:13 PM
 #41

Turkey is deeply different state. You have Istanbul and west coast where are tourism and hotel facilities and this is most civilized part of country. In area of Van lake and near border with Syria and Anadloya well you have customs similar to ISIS, and Kurds. Kurds are only one on a true battle front with ISIS. Now all cities on west coast and Istanbul will be bombs, because of ISIS and all those who wants modern Turkey gone. And Erdogan will open attack Kurds in Turkey

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galdur (OP)
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February 03, 2016, 10:38:15 PM
 #42

As Syria burns, Turkey’s Kurdish problem is getting worse

By Ishaan Tharoor February 3 at 9:15 AM

Not far from the Turkish border with Syria, another war is raging.

In the heart of the ancient city of Diyarbakir, behind its historic black-stone walls, security forces have been engaged for weeks in clashes with the youth wing of an outlawed Kurdish separatist group. Whole neighborhoods have been sealed off under curfew; tens of thousands of people have been forced to flee.

The mini-rebellion has been echoed elsewhere in Turkey's restive southeast, a region that is home to a majority Kurdish population and that has been in the grips of a low-level civil war since tensions flared last summer. The violence is likely the worst seen in the past two decades.

The Turkish government claims more than 200 policemen and soldiers have been killed since July, while some estimates place the local civilian death toll around that number as well. The Turkish crackdown on the militants — fighters belonging to the banned Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK — has led to more than 500 guerrilla deaths.

There's little indication of the hostilities calming. Since a peace process between the two sides fully collapsed last year, separatist-minded Kurds in a number of towns and neighborhoods pushed for de facto autonomy. The predominantly Kurdish border town of Cizre has been a hotbed of unrest and resistance for more than a year now and is now in the midst of an intense Turkish military clampdown.

Rights groups and critics of the Turkish government accuse the state of denying civilians stuck in the siege adequate access to medical care. On Tuesday, the top human rights official at the United Nations also urged Ankara to investigate an incident that occurred last month, which involved the apparent shooting of unarmed civilians, leading to a number of casualties.

Video footage appeared to show a group of civilians moving in front of an armored military vehicle before they "were cut down by a hail of gunfire," said Zeid Raad al-Hussein, the U.N. high commissioner for human rights.

Turkish authorities have previously rejected claims that their security forces were impeding aid to civilians. "They are deliberately not bringing the wounded out," said Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, referring to the Kurdish militants holed up in parts of Cizre and other towns in Turkey's southeast.

The PKK's insurgency has blown hot and cold since the early 1980s. It has led to some 40,000 deaths in those years. Under the rule of Erdogan and his Justice and Development Party, some of the causes for Kurdish grievance — including the suppression even of the use of their own language — started to be addressed. But the shadow of the Syrian war has led to a profound unraveling.

As WorldViews noted earlier, the territorial gains made by Syrian Kurdish militias over the past two years had ripple effects across the border. The Turkish government, which has spent decades attempting to subdue Kurdish separatist ambitions, looked on with horror as the PYD, a Syrian Kurdish faction historically linked to the PKK, emerged as a key player in northern Syria. The PYD's role on the front lines of the war against the Islamic State endeared it to the West, including the United States, which gave it aid.

"Ankara’s real fear is that the PYD’s success in Syria will dangerously strengthen the PKK in its fight against Turkey," writes Nicholas Danforth, a Turkey scholar at the Bipartisan Policy Center. "For Washington, by contrast, the PYD’s military success confronting [the Islamic State] in Syria remains the group’s main appeal."

This tension is playing out in the current, fitful round of U.N.-brokered talks over the Syrian conflict in Geneva. Turkey insisted that the PYD not be extended an invitation; the United States, an increasingly grudging ally, acquiesced. Russia, whose military intervention on behalf of the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad infuriated Turkey, is now also opportunistically cozying up to the Syrian Kurds. It had earlier demanded the PYD be included in the talks.

Ankara casts the PYD as a stooge agent of the Assad regime; the PYD, meanwhile, accuses Turkey of aiding the Islamic State in order to undermine the prospect of an autonomous Kurdish state along its border.

Within Turkey, criticism of the government's actions has led to harsh punishments. Turkish prosecutors are currently seeking life sentences for two prominent journalists who published a story that linked the Turkish government to arms shipments sent to Syrian rebel factions across the border. In a wholly separate case, an academic at a university in Ankara faces seven years jail time for simply circulating an exam question that involved the writings of the PKK's jailed leader, Abdullah Ocalan.


The escalation of violence and instability in the region has grave consequences for larger crises currently vexing the international community.

"Turkey's domestic peace is not an issue for Turkey alone," Selahattin Demirtas, a leading opposition politician and co-leader of the Peoples' Democratic Party, a leftist, pro-Kurdish party, told reporters in Brussels last week. "It is directly related to the resolution of the Syrian conflict and to the migration problem in Europe."

All the while, resentment and anger is festering on the streets of Diyarbakir and other majority Kurdish cities. The city boasts a huge cemetery for Kurdish youth who have gone off to fight across the border in Syria. A radicalization has set in.

"Many residents of these towns are poor families who were forced to flee the countryside when the conflict between the Kurds and the Turkish state was at its peak in the 1990s," writes Abdullah Demirbas, a former mayor of Sur, the old quarter in Diyarbakir that's now the epicenter of clashes. "Those who are digging trenches and declaring 'self-rule' in Sur and other cities and towns of southeastern Turkey today are mostly Kurdish youths in their teens and 20s who were born into that earlier era of violence, poverty and displacement, and grew up in radicalized ghettos."

Demirbas, a controversial figure in his own right, has seen one of his own sons join the PKK.

"Now a new generation will grow up with the trauma of killing, destruction and forced migration," he writes. "Where will they go? What will become of them?"


Ishaan Tharoor writes about foreign affairs for The Washington Post. He previously was a senior editor at TIME, based first in Hong Kong and later in New York.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/02/03/as-syria-burns-turkeys-kurdish-problem-is-getting-worse/

galdur (OP)
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February 18, 2016, 05:12:00 PM
 #43

Things have been heating up. Two attacks on the Turkish military yesterday and today. And they seem about to invade Syria. Stay tuned.

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February 18, 2016, 05:15:07 PM
 #44

Kurds should have their own country seceding from Turkey. Turkish leaders are barbarians, and Republic of Kurdistan needs to be established. Right inside Turkey.

kurds are barbarians for me.. they are asking for some rights by using terrorism instead of using peaceful ways.. this is what we hate..
galdur (OP)
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February 18, 2016, 06:17:14 PM
 #45

Kurds should have their own country seceding from Turkey. Turkish leaders are barbarians, and Republic of Kurdistan needs to be established. Right inside Turkey.

kurds are barbarians for me.. they are asking for some rights by using terrorism instead of using peaceful ways.. this is what we hate..

If they blow up soldiers that can hardly be called terrorism. After all the military blows up civilians on a regular basis. Is that terrorism?

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February 18, 2016, 06:23:08 PM
 #46

Kurds should have their own country seceding from Turkey. Turkish leaders are barbarians, and Republic of Kurdistan needs to be established. Right inside Turkey.

kurds are barbarians for me.. they are asking for some rights by using terrorism instead of using peaceful ways.. this is what we hate..

If they blow up soldiers that can hardly be called terrorism. After all the military blows up civilians on a regular basis. Is that terrorism?

 Terrorism - the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Yes it is.
galdur (OP)
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February 18, 2016, 09:10:50 PM
 #47

Kurds should have their own country seceding from Turkey. Turkish leaders are barbarians, and Republic of Kurdistan needs to be established. Right inside Turkey.

kurds are barbarians for me.. they are asking for some rights by using terrorism instead of using peaceful ways.. this is what we hate..

If they blow up soldiers that can hardly be called terrorism. After all the military blows up civilians on a regular basis. Is that terrorism?

 Terrorism - the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Yes it is.


Bill Clinton agrees

terror — meaning killing and robbery and coercion by people who do not have state authority and go beyond national borders —

https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/30/bill-clintons-world/

xhomerx10
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February 18, 2016, 09:36:05 PM
 #48

Kurds should have their own country seceding from Turkey. Turkish leaders are barbarians, and Republic of Kurdistan needs to be established. Right inside Turkey.

kurds are barbarians for me.. they are asking for some rights by using terrorism instead of using peaceful ways.. this is what we hate..

If they blow up soldiers that can hardly be called terrorism. After all the military blows up civilians on a regular basis. Is that terrorism?

 Terrorism - the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Yes it is.


Bill Clinton agrees

terror — meaning killing and robbery and coercion by people who do not have state authority and go beyond national borders —

https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/30/bill-clintons-world/

 I imagine Bill knows a lot more about terrorism than I but I'll have to take you at your word as the site at the end of this link wants me to subscribe to read the article.  While I appreciate others' opinions, I don't always like to pay for it.

Edit.
Actually that statment looks contrived to protect state-sanctioned militarism to promote American interests on an international level.  So, Bill and I do not agree.

galdur (OP)
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February 18, 2016, 10:49:01 PM
 #49

Kurds should have their own country seceding from Turkey. Turkish leaders are barbarians, and Republic of Kurdistan needs to be established. Right inside Turkey.

kurds are barbarians for me.. they are asking for some rights by using terrorism instead of using peaceful ways.. this is what we hate..

If they blow up soldiers that can hardly be called terrorism. After all the military blows up civilians on a regular basis. Is that terrorism?

 Terrorism - the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Yes it is.


Bill Clinton agrees

terror — meaning killing and robbery and coercion by people who do not have state authority and go beyond national borders —

https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/30/bill-clintons-world/

 I imagine Bill knows a lot more about terrorism than I but I'll have to take you at your word as the site at the end of this link wants me to subscribe to read the article.  While I appreciate others' opinions, I don't always like to pay for it.

Edit.
Actually that statment looks contrived to protect state-sanctioned militarism to promote American interests on an international level.  So, Bill and I do not agree.



I get this subscription nagging but get to the article. I did register with them maybe that´s the difference. Foreign Policy is the mouthpiece of the CFR so it´s straight from the horse´s mouth I guess.

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February 19, 2016, 02:02:20 AM
 #50

Kurds should have their own country seceding from Turkey. Turkish leaders are barbarians, and Republic of Kurdistan needs to be established. Right inside Turkey.

kurds are barbarians for me.. they are asking for some rights by using terrorism instead of using peaceful ways.. this is what we hate..

If they blow up soldiers that can hardly be called terrorism. After all the military blows up civilians on a regular basis. Is that terrorism?

 Terrorism - the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Yes it is.


Bill Clinton agrees

terror — meaning killing and robbery and coercion by people who do not have state authority and go beyond national borders —

https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/30/bill-clintons-world/

 I imagine Bill knows a lot more about terrorism than I but I'll have to take you at your word as the site at the end of this link wants me to subscribe to read the article.  While I appreciate others' opinions, I don't always like to pay for it.

Edit.
Actually that statment looks contrived to protect state-sanctioned militarism to promote American interests on an international level.  So, Bill and I do not agree.



I get this subscription nagging but get to the article. I did register with them maybe that´s the difference. Foreign Policy is the mouthpiece of the CFR so it´s straight from the horse´s mouth I guess.

Thanks! I'll try signing up and see if I can view articles.  I was on my android phone earlier; maybe it will work differently from my desktop too.
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February 19, 2016, 08:43:23 AM
 #51

It looks obious that the end goal is to get Kurdish people to have their own country, the World is just in a period of massive transformations that's it
galdur (OP)
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February 19, 2016, 12:15:26 PM
 #52

Yes, and it´s obvious that by shooting down the Russian plane Turkey helped the Kurds enormously. Now they have both Americans and Russians actively supporting them. It´s strange because it was such a painfully inevitable outcome. Piss off Russia and what does Russia do? That´s right.

bryant.coleman
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February 19, 2016, 06:24:26 PM
 #53

Yes, and it´s obvious that by shooting down the Russian plane Turkey helped the Kurds enormously. Now they have both Americans and Russians actively supporting them. It´s strange because it was such a painfully inevitable outcome. Piss off Russia and what does Russia do? That´s right.

I am not very sure about the American support. The PYD/YPG Kurdish faction, which is fighting in Syria is very close to the PKK of Turkey. Their relations with the Iraqi Kurdish factions (which are having friendly relations with both the Turks and the Americans) are not very warm. Remember that PKK is a banned terrorist organization in the United States.
galdur (OP)
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February 19, 2016, 07:30:40 PM
 #54

Yes, and it´s obvious that by shooting down the Russian plane Turkey helped the Kurds enormously. Now they have both Americans and Russians actively supporting them. It´s strange because it was such a painfully inevitable outcome. Piss off Russia and what does Russia do? That´s right.

I am not very sure about the American support. The PYD/YPG Kurdish faction, which is fighting in Syria is very close to the PKK of Turkey. Their relations with the Iraqi Kurdish factions (which are having friendly relations with both the Turks and the Americans) are not very warm. Remember that PKK is a banned terrorist organization in the United States.

Well, it may be a banned terrorist organization in the U.S. but buddies on another continent and it may not even be official. The U.S. has a very murky history of collaboration with terrorists. Foe can turn into friend practically overnight and vice versa.

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February 19, 2016, 09:18:16 PM
 #55

Why is Erdogan so upset with Kurds in SYRIA getting some additional rights and support? Erdogan is so set on murdering and oppressing Kurds that he doesn't want them to be free anywhere, even outside of Turkey? To Erdogan, ISIS and Al Nusra are preferable neighbors??

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February 19, 2016, 09:40:41 PM
 #56

When the Iraqi regime under Saddam Hussein did the same against the Kurds, the Americans and the British were among the first to react. Remember the Halabja chemical attack in 1988? But now, when Turkey is perpetrating even worse atrocities, the NATO is remaining silent. It is not a civil war. It is just a one-sided genocide against unarmed people.

Well, I think it started long ago and is now seriously escalating. In a few weeks garbage media will be unable to ignore it anymore. It´s good to try to be ahead of the curve, so starting this thread.

The PKK have been fighting Turkey for decades over the imprisonment of their leader, the Kurds have also been constantly supressed by Edrogan, they've been a state of civil war for some time now Turkey just can't it quiet anymore.
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February 19, 2016, 10:17:13 PM
 #57

Mostly just watching.

Thanks as always, Coleman, for the info on the PKK vs. PYD/YPG.  It's these little tid-bits that one can dive down into for more detail once tipped off.  I suspect that 'the Kurds' will be a big factor in what comes next for the region.

I've heard going back to the setup for the Gulf-II at least that Israel was providing significant support for 'the Kurds' and had fairly friendly and deep relations even back then.  And, of course, the 'better Middle East' has a 'Kurdistan' which jumps out and grabs the eye due to it's size (and geographical overlap with the current boundaries of important players in the region.)  Thoughts?  Info?

In the various run-downs I've read (in the course of tapping out this post) I don't see any info about the ties between the various Kurdish factions and Israel.  It's possible that there are few or they are gone, or that it is not in the interest of the commentators to discuss them (most leave fairly vacant the relationship between these factions and the U.S., Saudi Arabia, Russia, etc, as well, and I have a hard time imagining that plenty of support or anti-support from these players exist.)


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bryant.coleman
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February 20, 2016, 07:19:42 AM
 #58

I've heard going back to the setup for the Gulf-II at least that Israel was providing significant support for 'the Kurds' and had fairly friendly and deep relations even back then.  And, of course, the 'better Middle East' has a 'Kurdistan' which jumps out and grabs the eye due to it's size (and geographical overlap with the current boundaries of important players in the region.)  Thoughts?  Info?

Israel is having good relations with the Iraqi Kurds (Masoud Barzani and Jalal Talabani factions). However, their relations with the PKK are strained. Considering the fact that the YPG is affiliated to the PKK, I don't think that Israel will be interested in providing weapons or any other form of support for them. During the cold war period, the PKK and YPG were considered as communist organizations, and most of their support came from the USSR and China. However, after the disintegration of the USSR, this support vanished.
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February 20, 2016, 09:30:18 PM
 #59

Ill-founded delusions of grandeur from Turkey's President Erdogan ...


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February 21, 2016, 05:12:07 AM
 #60

Ill-founded delusions of grandeur from Turkey's President Erdogan ...

[mg]https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12715657_10153546336429037_2470984080021085473_n.jpg?oh=3cc164d88cf8eb32835806262b552a76&oe=576E185D[/img]

I heard and interesting analysis about Erdogan some time ago.  Edmonds is as close to a domain expert as anyone, and Corbett is characteristically informed in my opinion.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxvPfWkYyUo

tldw:  Nobody likes Erdogan and are making ready to punt him.

Not mentioned was Erdogan's behaviour with the MV Mavi Marmara incident.  It was rumored that Erdogan made a credible threat of war against Israel, and from what I could observe, it is not unlikely that he at least came pretty close.  If so, I could imagine a) most people feeling that he is to much of a loose cannon, and b) there might be a desire for some retribution.

Edmonds claims that the Kurds will be used for a time then discarded.  It seems to me that strategically from the standpoint of the West, it might be awfully handy to have a somewhat friendly and effectively autonomous Kurdish stronghold in Eastern Turkey.  Maybe even as formal a 'Kurdistan' as practical even.  The reason for this is that it could be a chronic infection which could cause continuous grief for Iran, Iraq, and Syria.  If that were to be attempted, doing so in association with getting rid of Erdogan and re-evaluating the scope of the NATO arrangements with Turkey could make some sense.


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