Myrkul Sells AnCap...

[Dalkore]

What I am wondering is, I keep saying and explaining this point over and over and over.... So why doesn't it sink in, and these same stupid hypotheticals keep coming up again?

Because logic is something the statist mind is carefully stripped of.

I was a statist too, so that can't be it...

Sorry, starting to get burned out on all the malignancy. Maybe it's just willful ignorance.

I love the air of arrogance in your statements like this.  "The Statist Mind".  If you want to use Logic and Reasoning then lets just take it back that Humans are highly evolved animals and we still have maintained basic animal instincts and they is exactly why you need a government of force to keep the people from turning this place in utter chaos.   I will admit when we had much fewer people and more land to spread out, we didn't need to be as competitive but now, that is not the case. 

Have you watched the video yet? It's only 8 minutes.

Yes I did and here is the flaw in the line of reasoning.   Property.  You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner.

Lets take property.   First off, you had no property when you came into this world so you have no automatic claim to any.  Once you start claim rights over property, NOW, you have to start following rules and they are mandatory, not voluntary, unless you decide to violate them then at the point, the person or body or persons would be justified to come after you to regain their property.

Now we can get into a debate and claims and how they should be handled and who gets what, but I want to focus on the fact that you came into this world like me, which no inherent property other that your life and freedom.

So unless we deal with prior claims to property which at this point, nation states have all laid claim to, you have no way to IMPOSE AnCap anywhere and unless you deal with that, it is just a fantasy with some good points we could use to reform the current State system.

I am not sure you want to start debating this with me.  Let see if you can talk your way out of this.   I almost already know what you will try and say so I am waiting.  Good luck and as always, I do enjoy our debates, your a worthy opponent.

Dalkore

[myrkul]

Have you watched the video yet? It's only 8 minutes.

Yes I did and here is the flaw in the line of reasoning.   Property.  You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner.

Lets take property.   First off, you had no property when you came into this world so you have no automatic claim to any. 

Who owns your body?

[Dalkore]

Have you watched the video yet? It's only 8 minutes.

Yes I did and here is the flaw in the line of reasoning.   Property.  You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner.

Lets take property.   First off, you had no property when you came into this world so you have no automatic claim to any. 

Who owns your body?

As stated above your life (body) is your own and only your own.   If you didn't read this I wrote, I'll will re-post it "You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner."

Why not go directly at my statement instead of asking a question that has a stated answer?

Good luck.

[myrkul]

Have you watched the video yet? It's only 8 minutes.

Yes I did and here is the flaw in the line of reasoning.   Property.  You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner.

Lets take property.   First off, you had no property when you came into this world so you have no automatic claim to any. 

Who owns your body?

As stated above your life (body) is your own and only your own.   If you didn't read this I wrote, I'll will re-post it "You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner."

Why not go directly at my statement instead of asking a question that has a stated answer?

Because you directly contradicted it. Your body is your original property. From it, come all other property claims. You didn't actually bother to Google "self-ownership" didja?

[Dalkore]

Have you watched the video yet? It's only 8 minutes.

Yes I did and here is the flaw in the line of reasoning.   Property.  You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner.

Lets take property.   First off, you had no property when you came into this world so you have no automatic claim to any. 

Who owns your body?

As stated above your life (body) is your own and only your own.   If you didn't read this I wrote, I'll will re-post it "You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner."

Why not go directly at my statement instead of asking a question that has a stated answer?

Because you directly contradicted it. Your body is your original property. From it, come all other property claims. You didn't actually bother to Google "self-ownership" didja?

Don't try that, I did Google that.  I think it is wrong the the fact that everyone comes into a world with "pre-claim" before them so you are not the SOLE owner of your output.  In America for example, we have a Constitution, Bill of Rights, USC, Common Law, Roman Law, State Law, Admiralty Law, etc.  When you come into existence in America you have rules to follow and there is a claim on your output.   You may object but the fact is that you don't come into the world in a bubble or vacuum.   Things were put in place to allow you to come into the world in the manner it is at anyone point.   Any debate to that is just a protest against the FACT.

So if we want to protest the system and talk about reform and complete change, that is one thing and I would like to talk about that.  But to sit there and preach "self-ownership" and that is why you should not be forced to do anything is patently absurd.  Who wants a world of people that don't feel they have any responsibility to anyone except their "self".   Sounds quite selfish to me.

[myrkul]

Have you watched the video yet? It's only 8 minutes.

Yes I did and here is the flaw in the line of reasoning.   Property.  You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner.

Lets take property.   First off, you had no property when you came into this world so you have no automatic claim to any. 

Who owns your body?

As stated above your life (body) is your own and only your own.   If you didn't read this I wrote, I'll will re-post it "You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner."

Why not go directly at my statement instead of asking a question that has a stated answer?

Because you directly contradicted it. Your body is your original property. From it, come all other property claims. You didn't actually bother to Google "self-ownership" didja?

Don't try that, I did Google that.  I think it is wrong the the fact that everyone comes into a world with "pre-claim" before them so you are not the SOLE owner of your output. 

So, again, we're back to: Who owns you?

[Dalkore]

Have you watched the video yet? It's only 8 minutes.

Yes I did and here is the flaw in the line of reasoning.   Property.  You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner.

Lets take property.   First off, you had no property when you came into this world so you have no automatic claim to any.

Who owns your body?

As stated above your life (body) is your own and only your own.   If you didn't read this I wrote, I'll will re-post it "You can have your life and liberty and I support and would challenge any attempt against taking that unless you have aggressed against someone else in the same manner."

Why not go directly at my statement instead of asking a question that has a stated answer?

Because you directly contradicted it. Your body is your original property. From it, come all other property claims. You didn't actually bother to Google "self-ownership" didja?

Don't try that, I did Google that.  I think it is wrong the the fact that everyone comes into a world with "pre-claim" before them so you are not the SOLE owner of your output.

So, again, we're back to: Who owns you?

So I take it you don't have an answer or know where this will lead if you start defending your position.  I answered your question but you can't obviously accept the answer.  Truth hurts.  

I own myself (body, mind and spirit) and I understand that I am not the only claimant on my output that is codified in our taxation system, in America.  

To Myrkul:  "Check"

[myrkul]

I own myself (body, mind and spirit) and I understand that I am not the only claimant on my output that is codified in our taxation system, in America. 

Then you accept that someone has greater claim than yourself over your body. Who?

[Richy_T]

I own myself (body, mind and spirit) and I understand that I am not the only claimant on my output that is codified in our taxation system, in America.  

To Myrkul:  "Check"

So by what authority does the "codified taxation system" have on your property other than just a bunch of people want to take your stuff?

[Dalkore]

I own myself (body, mind and spirit) and I understand that I am not the only claimant on my output that is codified in our taxation system, in America.  

To Myrkul:  "Check"

So by what authority does the "codified taxation system" have on your property other than just a bunch of people want to take your stuff?

Now that is a different discussion.  You really should open a new topic for that question and I will be happy to start a dialogue of ideas and thoughts.


Response:  We first off, I would say that the infrastructure and safety you and your parents enjoys so they could meet, make relationship and have you as a baby would first off be items I would say were not there before and did provide services to us all. 

At least in America we have a number of services that are taxed and provided for everyone (I know our current system is screwed up, lets say pre-1913 or pre-1971 to give a time-frame).  Unless you are a 100% Native American, your parents either immigrated or were brought as slaves so they signed themselves up and you defacto when they came here. 

Anyone is welcome to go somewhere else and try and claim their absolute sovereignty but at least from where I am at, I am in America (U.S.) and we have rules/laws and to try and challenge the most core basic ones, you better have a much better argument than claim liberty of self-ownership.   

Now characterizing a government codifying tax laws as "other than just a bunch of people want to take your stuff?" just really shows a very myopic and extreme point of view.  I believe you would need to back away from the assertion for us to have a meaningful debate.   You show your position quite clearly with no room to debate and or compromise. 

[myrkul]

You show your position quite clearly with no room to debate and or compromise. 

Yes, reality is known for being uncompromising.

[Rassah]

I do not believe corporations will change their modus operandi.  People still run these organization with their own greed and status.  More likely they will get more covert in their actions.  You can setup this alternative method of state but in the end, how to we change human nature to this point?  How do we get people to genuinely care about about other people, the environment, future generations.  AnCap does answer any of these and the only promise is less force and less government.   I only see even more abuse of a larger portion of the Strong vs. Weak.

You have to measure the value of your society from the base, not the apex.  I don't see AnCap doing that.

I don't believe they will change, either. There will always be assholes in any society. What will change is whether there is a government to enable the corporation's bad activities. Instead of the people saying "That's wrong!" and the government saying, "Well, it was still perfectly legal," there will only be people saying "That's wrong!"

As for how do we get people to genuinely care about about other people, the environment, and future generations, we don't actually "get people to do that" now. People already care about that, and they only pass (ineffective) regulations to try to enforce it. People will still care in AnCap society. They will just have to figure out how to enforce those regulations without a government that gets most of it's lobbying funds from the corporations it's trying to regulate (e.g. Boycott bad businesses and anyone dealing with them, use force to protest them, donate to private "awareness" groups who can help spread the message, etc. Imagine if Greenpeace had the funding, resources, and ability to own battleships, instead of rubber boats)

In the end, the value of the society will truly be measured from the base, with the people deciding what is important to them, what they believe to be moral, whom they wish to fund, and how to spend their money, instead of having all of that dictated to them by the government (for example, personally I would prefer all the taxes I pay that go to fund the wars and oil/farm subsidies, go to NASA instead, but I don't have a say in that)

[Dalkore]

I do not believe corporations will change their modus operandi.  People still run these organization with their own greed and status.  More likely they will get more covert in their actions.  You can setup this alternative method of state but in the end, how to we change human nature to this point?  How do we get people to genuinely care about about other people, the environment, future generations.  AnCap does answer any of these and the only promise is less force and less government.   I only see even more abuse of a larger portion of the Strong vs. Weak.

You have to measure the value of your society from the base, not the apex.  I don't see AnCap doing that.

I don't believe they will change, either. There will always be assholes in any society. What will change is whether there is a government to enable the corporation's bad activities. Instead of the people saying "That's wrong!" and the government saying, "Well, it was still perfectly legal," there will only be people saying "That's wrong!"

As for how do we get people to genuinely care about about other people, the environment, and future generations, we don't actually get people to do that now. People already care about that, and they only pass (ineffective) regulations to try to enforce it. People will still care in AnCap society. They will just have to figure out how to enforce those regulations without a government that gets most of it's lobbying funds from the corporations it's trying to regulate (e.g. Boycott bad businesses and anyone dealing with them, use force to protest them, donate to private "awareness" groups who can help spread the message, etc. Imagine if Greenpeace had the funding, resources, and ability to own battleships, instead of rubber boats)

Well there you have it.  AnCap's only answer is get rid of government and hope things get better and self-organize itself to work better than what we have.

Good luck selling that.  Corporations are already run by powerful people with their own interests, take away the only flimsy defense (up to this point) we have had is a much scarier prospect. 

I have proven why to "no government" movement will never get seriously considered from the common person, it is because the common person is more scared of the actions of other common people than their government and the corporations that lobby it for their own benefit.  Until you change that, YOU GOT NOTHING. 

Except a few good ideas that could be used as good reform tools.

[myrkul]

Chosen to ignore me, Dalkore?

Such a shame, so soon after calling me a "worthy opponent"

[Dalkore]

Chosen to ignore me, Dalkore?

Such a shame, so soon after calling me a "worthy opponent"

I would do no such thing.  I didn't see anything that required a response.   You just made a statement.

[myrkul]

Chosen to ignore me, Dalkore?

Such a shame, so soon after calling me a "worthy opponent"

I would do no such thing.  I didn't see anything that required a response.   You just made a statement.

I asked a question.

I own myself (body, mind and spirit) and I understand that I am not the only claimant on my output that is codified in our taxation system, in America. 

Then you accept that someone has greater claim than yourself over your body. Who?

[axus]

Wouldn't there be a lot of hitmen, who are hired to kill people anonymously?

[Rassah]

Well there you have it.  AnCap's only answer is get rid of government and hope things get better and self-organize itself to work better than what we have.

Either get rid of government, OR start our own society elsewhere without it, OR slowly make government irrelevant, the same way BitTorrent made their copyright powers irrelevant, Bitcoin+Tor is making their drug policy irrelevant, and 3D Printing will soon make regulations on what you can and can't have irrelevant (gun control laws will have to be rethought when anyone would be able to print almost any weapon at home). And self-organizing isn't that farfetched. We are social beings who do it all the time with or without government.

Good luck selling that.  Corporations are already run by powerful people with their own interests, take away the only flimsy defense (up to this point) we have had is a much scarier prospect. 

I have proven why to "no government" movement will never get seriously considered from the common person, it is because the common person is more scared of the actions of other common people than their government and the corporations that lobby it for their own benefit.  Until you change that, YOU GOT NOTHING. 

You are contradicting yourself in the bolded parts. Is it "people are more scared of corporations," or "people are more scared of other common people?"

I think you need to realize that you are the ones who are headed towards nothing. Do you disagree that corporations lobby politicians and help write the laws? Or that those who know the industry go to work for corporations who pay more, and only those who don't understand it completely, and thus don't know how to regulate it right go to work for the government? There is no fix for this. You can't legislate it away, because corporations write the legislation and pay to elect politicians. This has only gotten worse over the last few decades. How do you stop it?

[Rassah]

Dalkore, just caught up reading the rest of your arguments. The gist of your claim is that, since you were born in this society that provided you, you now "owe" that society for the things it provided. Fair enough. So, tell me, how much is that debt, exactly, and how can one pay it off? I'm not even suggesting "i paid of my debt, so nowI can ignore rules and laws when I'm visiting others or am on public property." Rules that others establish for their own property I'm fine with. I mean, how much do I have to pay to buy back the claims that the state has laid on me and my own property, so that I can be free  to have my own rules on the land I own, and pay taxes only for services  I want?

[Rassah]

Wouldn't there be a lot of hitmen, who are hired to kill people anonymously?

Yes. Yes there would be. But they wouldn't be cheap. Someone would have to be worth way more dead than alive for someone else to spend the $50,000 or so it takes to hire one.