I think I'm actually going to boycott mainstream televised news

[bb113]

No human institution in all of history has more utterly failed at it's stated purpose than the american press of the 20th and 21st centuries.

I would suggest that governments failed more catastrophically at their stated purpose of protecting their citizenry, by murdering their own populace to the tune of 273 million corpses, just in the 20th century, excluding wars.

But to each its own.

That's an interesting perspective on it. What's the source/calculation?

[Lethn]

You really were still watching the sockpuppet shows?

I was watching it originally to find out pretty much what the 'other' side was thinking, but now it's just nothing more than murder stories endlessly looping in order to scare the living daylights out of us. Realised I was being a bit of an idiot because I can just go to news articles in order to find that out and laugh at them instead of get angry.

[Rudd-O]

You really were still watching the sockpuppet shows?

I was watching it originally to find out pretty much what the 'other' side was thinking, but now it's just nothing more than murder stories endlessly looping in order to scare the living daylights out of us. Realised I was being a bit of an idiot because I can just go to news articles in order to find that out and laugh at them instead of get angry.

Yah, the whole fearmongering sockpuppetry is much less scary when in text form.  Hehe :-)  But, if I may suggest, just stop reading their bullshit entirely.  I mean, there's so many better things to do!

[Rudd-O]

I seem to have gotten the figure wrong.  It's only 262 million corpses.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

[Lethn]

Oh believe me I'm barely touching it now, I do need to read the finance news and stuff every now and then just to gauge the markets price movements though, that's unavoidable really but lol I've got much nicer websites for that now.

[Rudd-O]

Oh believe me I'm barely touching it now, I do need to read the finance news and stuff every now and then just to gauge the markets price movements though, that's unavoidable really but lol I've got much nicer websites for that now.

For gauging the markets, I prefer clarkmoody.com :-D

[myrkul]

Just remember, if you don't see the Fnords! they can't hurt you.

[Rudd-O]

Just remember, if you don't see the Fnords! they can't hurt you.

If I can't see the what?  I think you accidentally a word there.

[Lethn]

Just remember, if you don't see the Fnords! they can't hurt you.

ON THIS DAY I GO TO SOVNGARDE!

[Freja]

I think I'm actually going to boycott mainstream televised news

Good for you!
If you feel an overwhelming need for a "fix", then head over to RT.com, PressTV.ir or Euronews.com

English speaking news, free of ads, no commerical angle and a different side to the story if you live in a Western country.

Before you know it you'll actually start thinking for yourself and opening your eyes to what's really happening.

[Akka]

Just remember, if you don't see the Fnords! they can't hurt you.

If I can't see the what?  I think you accidentally a word there.

I cannot escape them No matter how I try They wait for me everywhere I cannot pass them by.

Driving down the street I see "Jesus Is Lord" And then immediately after I hear the word "FNORD!"

Innocuous sayings and parables And on the evening news I hear the word "FNORD!" And suddenly I'm confused

I sit alone in my room And I'm feeling rather bored I turn on the tube and guess what I hear the word "FNORD!"

"Don't see the fnords and they won't eat you" That's what I've heard the wisemen say But I can't get away from those beasties There's just no fucking way.

Fnord is toast without bread. Fnord is the source of all the zero bits in your computer.
Fnord is the echo of silence. Fnord is the parsley on the plate of life.
Fnord is the sales tax on happiness. Fnord is the donut hole.
Fnord is an annoying series of email messages. Fnord is the yin without yang.
Fnord is the color only blind people can see. Fnord is the Universe with decreasing entropy.

[myrkul]

Just remember, if you don't see the Fnords! they can't hurt you.

If I can't see the what?  I think you accidentally a word there.

I cannot escape them No matter how I try They wait for me everywhere I cannot pass them by.

Driving down the street I see "Jesus Is Lord" And then immediately after I hear the word "FNORD!"

Innocuous sayings and parables And on the evening news I hear the word "FNORD!" And suddenly I'm confused

I sit alone in my room And I'm feeling rather bored I turn on the tube and guess what I hear the word "FNORD!"

"Don't see the fnords and they won't eat you" That's what I've heard the wisemen say But I can't get away from those beasties There's just no fucking way.

Fnord is toast without bread. Fnord is the source of all the zero bits in your computer.
Fnord is the echo of silence. Fnord is the parsley on the plate of life.
Fnord is the sales tax on happiness. Fnord is the donut hole.
Fnord is an annoying series of email messages. Fnord is the yin without yang.
Fnord is the color only blind people can see. Fnord is the Universe with decreasing entropy.

...What he said.

ON THIS DAY I GO TO SOVNGARDE!

Been there. A little misty. Prefer The Shivering Isles.

[bb113]

I seem to have gotten the figure wrong.  It's only 262 million corpses.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

So the "statist" response to this (and really the point of that site) is that not all governments commit democide equally, but it is a function of how totalitarian the government is.

Where the political elite can command all, where they can act arbitrarily, where they can kill as they so whim, they are most likely to commit democide. Where the elite are checked by countervailing power, where they are restrained and held to account for their actions, where they must answer to the very people they might murder, they are least likely to commit democide. That is power kills; absolute power kills absolutely. This is the underlying principle.

I mean you can't really blame the democratic/republican governments for the actions of the totalitarian ones. Really we need some estimate of how long it takes governments to either become totalitarian or fail due to whatever reason. Or perhaps those governments are totalitarian at the outset.

Even then the number of confounds will be huge, making any sort of real analysis (ie predictive) difficult. I think most westerner's agree that totalitarianism is bad. What we really want to know is whether or not there is a threshold that is crossed after which a state is very likely to become democidal. Maybe this is on that site somewhere.

[Lethn]

lol now I've got to figure out what to do with all this free time maybe I'll finally start learning Japanese like I've been planning to for awhile now.

[myrkul]

I seem to have gotten the figure wrong.  It's only 262 million corpses.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

So the "statist" response to this (and really the point of that site) is that not all governments commit democide equally, but it is a function of how totalitarian the government is.

All do to some degree. True, not equally, but all of them do to one degree or another.

[Rudd-O]

I seem to have gotten the figure wrong.  It's only 262 million corpses.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

So the "statist" response to this (and really the point of that site) is that not all governments commit democide equally, but it is a function of how totalitarian the government is.

I don't want, and never wanted, to blame "governments".  They don't exist.  All there is, is people doing things.

I blame the belief in the virtue of a group who perpetrates organized aggression to parasitize everyone else.  People under the influence of this belief, whether members or victims of this group, are the ones who believe that governments exist.  Not me.

What you see in observable reality is nothing more than (a) a tiny minority of people telling you what to do and how much to pay so they will let you live unharmed (b) a gaggle of people who incorrectly believe that the first group are their saviors and protectors, and worship them as a result of this incorrect belief.

That is, to me, the essence of statism.  It is to recoil in horror when watching an aggressor murder another, then to watch the exact same scene with the aggressor in a blue costume, only to say "well, he had it coming".  It is to feel terrified about being robbed of half of what you have, but paying up every April 15th with an unease that is hard to explain away.  It is to talk shit about Halliburton while celebrating the paid murderers in green costumes.  It is to cry in awe as the President sheds tears for the death of 20 children, when he himself has ordered the firebombing of 2000.  It is that level of irrationallity.  That is statism.

The problem isn't "totalitarianism".  It never was, not in the slightest.  The problem really isn't "aggressive people using too much aggression".  The problem is the belief that a bunch of aggressive people are virtuous and protect you.  That very belief, that the aggressive people are authorized and righteous to use aggression, is precisely what enables the aggressive people to murder everyone else, with total impunity.

If you think for a second that you live in a human farm, where you're farmed for your labor, and suppressed if you become a problem for the farmers, then the distinction between "totalitarianism" and "democracy" becomes very easy to figure out: both are merely methods to organize the farm.

The belief that a human being is righteously authorized to murder, brutalize, or cage another human being, as punishment for peacefully resisting an order, is not a totalitarian belief -- it is a statist belief.  Democide is not caused by totalitarianism -- it is caused by statism.

[bb113]

I seem to have gotten the figure wrong.  It's only 262 million corpses.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

So the "statist" response to this (and really the point of that site) is that not all governments commit democide equally, but it is a function of how totalitarian the government is.

I don't want, and never wanted, to blame "governments".  They don't exist.  All there is, is people doing things.

I blame the belief in the virtue of a group who perpetrates organized aggression to parasitize everyone else.  People under the influence of this belief, whether members or victims of this group, are the ones who believe that governments exist.  Not me.

What you see in observable reality is nothing more than (a) a tiny minority of people telling you what to do and how much to pay so they will let you live unharmed (b) a gaggle of people who incorrectly believe that the first group are their saviors and protectors, and worship them as a result of this incorrect belief.

That is, to me, the essence of statism.  It is to recoil in horror when watching an aggressor murder another, then to watch the exact same scene with the aggressor in a blue costume, only to say "well, he had it coming".  It is to feel terrified about being robbed of half of what you have, but paying up every April 15th with an unease that is hard to explain away.  It is to talk shit about Halliburton while celebrating the paid murderers in green costumes.  It is to cry in awe as the President sheds tears for the death of 20 children, when he himself has ordered the firebombing of 2000.  It is that level of irrationallity.  That is statism.

The problem isn't "totalitarianism".  It never was, not in the slightest.  The problem really isn't "aggressive people using too much aggression".  The problem is the belief that a bunch of aggressive people are virtuous and protect you.  That very belief, that the aggressive people are authorized and righteous to use aggression, is precisely what enables the aggressive people to murder everyone else, with total impunity.

If you think for a second that you live in a human farm, where you're farmed for your labor, and suppressed if you become a problem for the farmers, then the distinction between "totalitarianism" and "democracy" becomes very easy to figure out: both are merely methods to organize the farm.

The belief that a human being is righteously authorized to murder, brutalize, or cage another human being, as punishment for peacefully resisting an order, is not a totalitarian belief -- it is a statist belief.  Democide is not caused by totalitarianism -- it is caused by statism.

I agree, the primary problem is the concept of legitimate aggression. However, the counterargument is that perhaps people would be killing each other at even higher rates without the state there to intervene. There really are no good counterexamples to point to, so the argument descends into one of opinion on both sides. There is a need for counterexamples, which I think are most likely to be peacefully birthed from an existing democratic state by people replacing the need for governments one issue at a time.


These people who go on sprees of destruction in order to further some political agenda (not sure if that was the case in the Ct shooting) are really the worst possible obstacle to this occurring.

Just think of the questions people are asked while growing up. "What do you want to do with your life?",  "What do you want out of life?", etc. Then they are all pissed when they don't get it. If instead the mindset was to ask "Given your background and innate qualities, what useful service can you provide for others?", this process would proceed much quicker. I think that is the main idea that changed my political views. I realized my goal should be to produce what I think may be useful/desired by others (which is innately rewarding anyway) in the hope that eventually one of these things will lead to extrinsic reward.

[DoomDumas]

something interesting has happened as well, I actually feel a hell of a lot calmer and more relaxed now, maybe you guys should try it and see what happens? Bet you'll feel a lot better about what's going on in the world, I think the only thing I'm going to do now is take to what Jon Stewart does and just laugh at the media for the way they do all this, he has the right idea.

I've banned TV and Pub from my life as much as possible several years ago.. This was the best move I've never done    I feel a lot better, and I'm not a lesser human not knowing what TV tought is the actuality.. with the time passing by, learning a lot about anything, I came to a form of conclusion.. TV news are not centered on what really matters, they focus hard on stuff they think will bring audience, cause they have to sell pub, wich is  toxic for our mind.  Not being exposed to pub, made my life easier and simpler..  When de-intoxicated from the news/pub, we begin to have a much better view of the world, our live.

After few years, you will see that peoples around you exposed to those toxics are acting wierd on few levels, and have some strange value attached to things..

Thats a real nice move from you..

Lethn, you just begin to feel the benefit.. as the time goes, you will renforce your position and became much more against this brain washing machine named TV.

Happy for you

[Lethn]

lolz, I wonder if there's a study that shows a link between mainstream news and violent tendencies? It certainly seems to be very manipulative.

[Rudd-O]

I agree, the primary problem is the concept of legitimate aggression. However, the counterargument is that perhaps people would be killing each other at even higher rates without the state there to intervene. There really are no good counterexamples to point to,

...except everyone in your life who doesn't kill, rape or rob you, even when they could get away with it easily?

I get the feeling that this (rather common) counterargument -- aside from not really being an argument but rather an allegedly untested hypothesis according to their proponents -- stems from a very creationist / religious / Original Sin form of conceptualizing one's fellow man.

That is, the idea that without a government everyone turns into evil Motorcycling Mad Max in Mohawks, is really no different from the belief that roads will "instantly vanish" if "government disappears"

But then again, we've been telling religious people that for decades, and they still believe -- against all observable evidence -- that without the Bible, people will suddenly become evil.

Now, there's absolutely every reason to believe that a tiny minority of the populace will most definitely turn evil, because they already were evil and believe that committing evil doesn't matter, only getting caught does.  We call these people "psychopaths".  They're about like 5% of the people.  And it is a problem (for which theoretical and practical decentralized solutions exist).

Now, don't quote me on this, but even if we don't have a solution to the psychopath problem, I much prefer a system where a psychopath gets shot in the face while attempting to rape a little child, to a system where the same psychopath is worshipped by useful idiots and empowered to firebomb children, give syphilis to Negroes, or trigger nuclear bombs.  Democide, remember?

 so the argument descends into one of opinion on both sides.

No, not really.  I don't think there are two opinions on each side here.  What is there, is an irrational belief about pervasive human malevolence rooted in Original Sin, being battled (and increasingly being proven wrong and conquered) by facts that demonstrate the ample majority of people are voluntaryists when left to their own devices, and only really resort to violence to defend themselves and their loved ones.

I mean, there's research proving this.  Even frigging soldiers won't fire into each other during war (a fact  that is described as a "serious problem" by the psychopaths who run these murderer gangs).  People, even strangers, even when they are children, help each other and have altruism.

I can show you videos of this shit.  The question really only is: will you believe your eyes, or will you reject it and believe what you were told about your Evil Cousin, Man?