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Author Topic: DECENTRALIZED crypto currency (including Bitcoin) is a delusion (any solutions?)  (Read 91139 times)
Fuserleer
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January 11, 2016, 09:19:59 PM
 #281

Of course they do, they cost energy!  What else would it cost?

I explained this in brief up thread, if you didn't read it, do so, if you need more detail, post back after.

What energy? I can't find where you describe how it works.

What exactly do you want to know? :|

I'm a little confused.

A presents a challenge to B.  B has to spend CPU time to solve it and present the solution to A.  The problems are not trivial and will result in B spending CPU time solving it.  These problems could be anything from a simple hash target like Bitcoins, to more exotic work challenges that consider a number of data sets.

If B has too many connections open, he will get more challenges than he can process and will not be able to provide the results in time.  Should A decide to make a transaction before B has provided the solution, B will not be eligible for an endorsement.

monsterer
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January 11, 2016, 09:24:26 PM
 #282

A presents a challenge to B.  B has to spend CPU time to solve it and present the solution to A.  The problems are not trivial and will result in B spending CPU time solving it.  These problems could be anything from a simple hash target like Bitcoins, to more exotic work challenges that consider a number of data sets.

Ok, that goes some way toward solving the problem... IMO, the votes themselves should be the work, otherwise the frequency with which the challenges arrive might not be sufficient to prevent the sybil problem.
TPTB_need_war (OP)
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January 11, 2016, 09:28:19 PM
 #283

A presents a challenge to B.  B has to spend CPU time to solve it and present the solution to A.  The problems are not trivial and will result in B spending CPU time solving it.  These problems could be anything from a simple hash target like Bitcoins, to more exotic work challenges that consider a number of data sets.

Ok, that goes some way toward solving the problem... IMO, the votes themselves should be the work, otherwise the frequency with which the challenges arrive might not be sufficient to prevent the sybil problem.

It doesn't solve it because there are no blocks, thus there are ambiguities same as for Iota. You will never get around this fundamental. Never. Not in a 1000 years. Mark my word.

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January 11, 2016, 09:29:45 PM
 #284

monsterer, I solved it. If you are serious to help me implement and don't need to be paid upfront in cash, you may contact me in PM and we can handle the formalities to see if we can work together. If so, I can reveal the design to you.

Same applies to anyone who is truly capable.

I am done here in public. I was going to give an overview and explain the advantages and tradeoffs compared to Bitcoin, but I've lost interest because of the level of stupid shit that goes on in forums.

I want results. I am so tired of wasting time.

Translation:

RADiX (formerly eMunie): The future of money
wingspan
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January 11, 2016, 09:35:38 PM
 #285

I bet a buck TPTB makes one more comment on BTT in the next 3 hours.  Any takers?  I'd gladly pay that just to be wrong and not have his endless "I'm done talking" posts.   Then I can enjoy reading the Socratic posts that make mental progress.
masterOfDisaster
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January 11, 2016, 09:41:26 PM
 #286

It's a pity that this discussion, which was one of the better ones on bct for some time, has come to this end.
I still haven't read it all, but it seemed to be very auspicious.
Sad
sidhujag
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January 11, 2016, 09:44:47 PM
 #287

I bet a buck TPTB makes one more comment on BTT in the next 3 hours.  Any takers?  I'd gladly pay that just to be wrong and not have his endless "I'm done talking" posts.   Then I can enjoy reading the Socratic posts that make mental progress.
heh
Fuserleer
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January 11, 2016, 10:02:10 PM
 #288

monsterer, I solved it. If you are serious to help me implement and don't need to be paid upfront in cash, you may contact me in PM and we can handle the formalities to see if we can work together. If so, I can reveal the design to you.

Same applies to anyone who is truly capable.

I am done here in public. I was going to give an overview and explain the advantages and tradeoffs compared to Bitcoin, but I've lost interest because of the level of stupid shit that goes on in forums.

I want results. I am so tired of wasting time.

I was going to give you some insight into why blocks of the form you speak of are unneeded, but apparently public discussions are "stupid shit"....so I've lost interest.

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January 11, 2016, 10:04:00 PM
 #289

It's a pity that this discussion, which was one of the better ones on bct for some time, has come to this end.
I still haven't read it all, but it seemed to be very auspicious.
Sad

Agree.  I was rather enjoying the discourse as well.

Sad that some can't seem to see the forest without a quantum-level view of the trees.

RADiX (formerly eMunie): The future of money
Fuserleer
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January 11, 2016, 10:04:58 PM
 #290

A presents a challenge to B.  B has to spend CPU time to solve it and present the solution to A.  The problems are not trivial and will result in B spending CPU time solving it.  These problems could be anything from a simple hash target like Bitcoins, to more exotic work challenges that consider a number of data sets.

Ok, that goes some way toward solving the problem... IMO, the votes themselves should be the work, otherwise the frequency with which the challenges arrive might not be sufficient to prevent the sybil problem.

Phew, ok I'm glad you are finally getting a fully picture.  Was that not obvious in the primer doc though, or from the earlier example?  What was missing?  And don't say a full technical doc Smiley I should be able to explain the crux of this in a few sentences and if I can't I want to know why.

I considered that actually, but I determined that it was more efficient this way and could see no adverse problems.  Could you expand on your concern?

monsterer
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January 11, 2016, 10:12:40 PM
 #291

I considered that actually, but I determined that it was more efficient this way and could see no adverse problems.  Could you expand on your concern?

What frequency do the challenges arrive? They might be too infrequent to deter an attack, but if you require them with each vote then they are synchronised exactly with the control they affect and they make the attack get very expensive very quickly.
Fuserleer
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January 12, 2016, 12:18:30 AM
 #292

It's a pity that this discussion, which was one of the better ones on bct for some time, has come to this end.

This discussion is far from coming to an end...   worst case scenario it will continue in a new/different thread...   Wink


Edit:  Please continue here folks!   Smiley

Yeah theres much to discuss yet, though I might make a specific eMunie related thread and copy out all the best bits so as not to ruffle any feathers.

TPTB_need_war (OP)
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January 12, 2016, 12:22:13 AM
Last edit: January 12, 2016, 01:13:44 AM by TPTB_need_war
 #293

One last farting shot so the ignoramuses here can ponder respecting those who are smarter than they are.

Decentralized Proof-of-Work Ordering

Some decentralized databases such as cryptocurrencies or smart contracts require consensus on the ordering of events.

Bitcoin provides consensus on ordering with a Bzyantine fault tolerance of up to 50% of the network proof-of-work hashrate, or as low as 33% due to the economic advantage of selfishly mining the block chain rewards. Bitcoin employs proof-of-work puzzles to identify whom is authorized to produce the next block of events and consensus is the longest chain of blocks which contains the greatest cumulative proof-of-work difficulty.

Consuming a resource such as proof-of-work to produce a chain of event blocks is necessary to disambiguate conflicting events in competing chains by choosing the longest chain. Otherwise there would be unresolvable conflict over which of the conflicting events is valid.

Given a longest chain rule consensus, block periods of events are required because otherwise for example in a DAG there is a divergent proliferation of unmergeable chains induced by conflicting events, e.g. cryptocurrency double-spends. One need only graph some complex scenarios to visualize this effect. In any other attempt to consume a resource to prove a consensus on ordering of events that does not use a longest chain rule, irreconcilable ambiguities will proliferate due to lack of a globally consistent rule for disambiguating double-spends. Globally in this context refers to the fact that nodes of a decentralized network will disagree about the order in which events arrived because propagation can not be made consistent.

This paper analyzes the flaws in Bitcoin's algorithm which:

* effectively make it centralized over time
* limit scalability and transaction rate
* cause an irresolvable tension over the ideal block data size
* induce a Tragedy of the Commons on the economics of funding mining
* deny instant confirmations
* allow less than 50% Byzantine fault tolerance (due to selfish mining)

I propose a new design to resolve all these issues that retains the core principle of a proof-of-work block chain.

Fuserleer
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January 12, 2016, 12:23:49 AM
 #294

I considered that actually, but I determined that it was more efficient this way and could see no adverse problems.  Could you expand on your concern?

What frequency do the challenges arrive? They might be too infrequent to deter an attack, but if you require them with each vote then they are synchronised exactly with the control they affect and they make the attack get very expensive very quickly.

The challenges are constant and will not span voting sessions.  At minimum you'll receive at least 1 challenge per voting session.  If you are connected to a number of nodes, then you'll get at least 1 challenge from each connected node for that voting session (you'll also be sending challenges to the same connections).

In your 10,000 example above, you'd have to process at least 10,000 challenges per voting session, and you still only get 1 vote in that session per "node".

Each voting session will generally last between 30-60 seconds depending on whats happening network wide and if there are any conflicts.

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January 12, 2016, 12:37:38 AM
 #295

One last farting shot so the ignoramuses here can start to think a little about respecting those who are smarter than they are.

Decentralized Proof-of-Work Ordering

Some decentralized databases such as cryptocurrencies or smart contracts require consensus on the ordering of events.

Bitcoin provides consensus on ordering with a Bzyantine fault tolerance of up to 50% of the network proof-of-work hashrate, or as low as 33% due to the economic advantage of selfishly mining the block chain rewards. Bitcoin employs proof-of-work puzzles to identify whom is authorized to produce the next block of events and consensus is the longest chain of blocks which contains the greatest cumulative proof-of-work difficulty.

Consuming a resource such as proof-of-work to produce a chain of event blocks is necessary to disambiguate conflicting events in competing chains by choosing the longest chain. Otherwise there would be unresolveable conflict over which of the conflicting events is valid.

Given a longest chain rule consensus, block periods of events are required because otherwise for example in a DAG there is a divergent proliferation of unmergeable chains induced by double-spends. One need only graph some complex scenarios to visualize this effect. In any other attempt to consume a resource to prove a consensus on ordering of events that does not use a longest chain rule, irreconcilable ambiguities will profilerate due to lack of a globally consistent rule for disambiguating double-spends. Globally in this context refers to the fact that nodes of a decentralized network will disagree about the order in which events arrived because propagation can not be made consistent.

This paper analyzes the flaws in Bitcoin's algorithm which:

* effectively make it centralized over time
* limit scalability and transaction rate
* cause an irresolvable tension over the ideal block data size
* deny instant confirmations

I propose a new design to resolve all these issues that retains the core principle of a proof-of-work block chain.

Initially I wasn't going to bother even replying due to the tone of your opening statement.

But, consider this ( I don't expect a constructive reply, this is more for everyone else)

The voted ledger states in eMunie are akin to blocks to some degree, though with your intellect I'm dumbfounded how you haven't already seen the parallels.

A block in Bitcoin defines what has happened since the last one, a ledger state in eMunie does the same.

It doesn't matter what order the transactions come in during an inter-block period with Bitcoin, transactions can be validated just the same.  This is also true for eMunie.

Until a transaction is included in a Bitcoin block, it is not final.  Until a transaction is referenced in an eMunie voted ledger state, it is not final.

eMunie just does things in a different way, using more "exotic" data structures and decouples a lot of stuff for speed, efficiency and finality.

This finality in Bitcoin is generally regarded as 6 confirms (though with the level of hash rate etc, I'd argue that 1 or 2 are plenty), or 60 minutes.  In eMunie this finality is 30 seconds, and can not be changed.

TPTB_need_war (OP)
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January 12, 2016, 12:46:38 AM
 #296

The voted ledger states in eMunie are akin to blocks to some degree, though with your intellect I'm dumbfounded how you haven't already seen the parallels.

Hey politically motivated asshole.

I only said your design can't work if it doesn't have blocks.

I also said I can't analyze that which you don't provide all the details for. This is the first time I have heard anything about ledger states being record in a data structure that mimicks a chain. Again if there is no chain, there is no provable history, which was my other point about a likely flaw.

I knew that if you didn't provide all the details, then you would play a political hide & seek game to try to compare our egos.

Fuck off. You will not accomplish anything. I guarantee it. There is your challenge. Now go prove me wrong.

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January 12, 2016, 12:55:47 AM
 #297

I don't know what your native language is, but when someone tells me its a "ledger" that means its a chain of events by definition (e.g. checkbook running balance) with a beginning and ending balance.  How could you not interpret that as block-like?

You must not have a basic grasp of finance to understand that simple language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledger


RADiX (formerly eMunie): The future of money
TPTB_need_war (OP)
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January 12, 2016, 12:59:48 AM
 #298

I don't know what your native language is, but when someone tells me its a "ledger" that means its a chain of events by definition (e.g. checkbook running balance) with a beginning and ending balance.  How could you not interpret that as block-like?

You must not have a basic grasp of finance to understand that simple language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledger

Cripes is that all you eMunie shrills can do is play politics in a what was a serious thread.

Release a fucking white paper that is properly elucidated.

A ledger doesn't necessarily group events into blocks. Duh.

Don't worry he will have flaws. And I will be there to shred his white paper as pay back for this shit you are doing.

Now bye. Carry on with your pitiful shrilling.

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January 12, 2016, 01:24:15 AM
Last edit: January 12, 2016, 01:35:46 AM by TPTB_need_war
 #299

All you've ever done in comparison is a website

Oh really. Your research of my career is very myopic. First of all, Coolpage.com was not just a website, it was a downloadable software written in C++. Also I have worked on other million user commercial products such as what is now Corel Painter.

Ah you are 34. That explains a lot. Read on...

You are certainly full of it!!

I don't want to be, nor ever did wish to be part of your "gang".  Even if you had good ideas, working with you side by side would be enough to drive me to a noose within a week, if not shorter.

You are by far one of the most arrogant, condescending, patronizing, egoistic, obtuse, self worshiping individuals I've EVER had the misfortune to have to encounter, and believe me sir, I've encountered many indeed.   In the past I was consoled by the fact that dealing with these individuals was necessary to achieve some goal, unfortunately here there is no such comfort.

All you do is attempt to assert authority over others by shouting and aiming negative comments towards them, and not once I've I ever seen anything of you to back up any of your exaggerated claims about how smart you are, or how skilled, or anything else for that matter.  Its just noise!

For example, the paper you attempted to sell for $20,000 that included some holy grail which was as it was turned out, done by Monero months before you.  You then spent the next month trying to discredit theirs instead of just accepting the fact that they beat you to it (we still haven't seen the paper you claimed to have writing so that could be total bollocks too!) The "code" you published on Git, anyone could of done that, no deity skills required there.  

You've spent 3 years talking, and trying to convince everyone on here that you are some God, when if you are as good as you state you are, you could have proved it with a product.

Finally just for the record, as you seem to have a very high regard for ego justified by past achievement, and as this is a private conversation....here we go:

I've touched more lives in my 34 years time here on earth than you ever will.  I'd wager that most of the planet have used something in their hands, that I had design, development or technical input into, and millions likely still do today, everyday and I've plenty of fuel left in the tank to touch plenty more.

How does that compare?  All you've ever done in comparison is a website and lots of talking about how great you are.  Your ego is your +1 everywhere, because you feel naked and vulnerable without it.  I don't need an ego, despite my achievements I know that constantly telling everyone about ones achievements makes you sound like a total douche, and plus people then are only interested in you for what you did, not what you are doing, WHO WANTS THAT?  Weak people.  I check mine in at the door, I don't need one as I'm happy for all to see whatever they see.

I suggest that we refrain from each others threads from now on.

Note Eric S. Raymond is the 150+ IQ progenitor of the term "open source" and his famous writings Cathedral and the Bazaar, Magic Cauldron, etc..

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1404

Ego is for little people
Posted on 2009-11-09 by Eric Raymond

When I got really famous and started to hang out with people at the top of the game in computer science and other fields, one of the first things I noticed is that the real A-list types almost never have a major territorial/ego thing going on in their behavior. The B-list people, the bright second-raters, may be all sharp elbows and ego assertion, but there’s a calm space at the top that the absolutely most capable ones get to and tend to stay in.

[...]

No. It’s more that ego games have a diminishing return. The farther you are up the ability and achievement bell curve, the less psychological gain you get from asserting or demonstrating your superiority over the merely average, and the more prone you are to welcome discovering new peers because there are so damn few of them that it gets lonely. There comes a point past which winning more ego contests becomes so pointless that even the most ambitious, suspicious, external-validation-fixated strivers tend to notice that it’s no fun any more and stop.

[...]

And yet, there are people out there who are going to read the previous paragraph and think “Oh, that’s Eric’s ego again. The blowhard.” I’ve had a lot of time to get used to such reactions over the last decade, but it’s still hard for me not to collapse in helpless laughter at the implied degree of Not Getting It.

[...]

I think there are a couple of different reasons people tend to falsely attribute pathological, oversensitive egos to A-listers. Each reason is in its own way worth taking a look at.

The first and most obvious reason is projection. “Wow, if I were as talented as Terry Pratchett, I know I’d have a huge ego about it, so I guess he must.” Heh. Trust me on this; he doesn’t. This kind of thinking reveals a a lot about somebody’s ego and insecurity, alright, but not Terry’s.

There’s a flip side to projection that I think of as the “Asimov game”. I met Isaac Asimov just a few months before he died. Isaac had long been notorious for broadly egotistical behavior and a kind of cheerful bombast that got up a lot of peoples’ noses. But if you ever met him, and you were at all perceptive, you might see that it was all a sort of joke. Isaac was laughing inside at everyone who took his “egotism” seriously – and, at the same time, watching hungrily for people who could see through the self-parody, because they might – might – actually be among the vanishingly tiny minority that constituted his actual peers. The Asimov game is a constant temptation to extroverted A-listers; I’ve been known to fall into it myself. It’s not really anybody’s fault that a lot of people are fooled by it.

Another confusing fact is that though A-listers may not be about ego or status competition, they will often play such games ruthlessly and effectively when that gets them something they actually want. The something might be more money from a gig, or a night in the hay with an attractive wench, or whatever; the point is, if you catch an A-lister in that mode, you might well mistake for egotism some kinds of display behavior that actually serve much more immediate and instrumental purposes. Your typical A-lister in that situation (and this includes me, now) is blithely unconcerned that a bystander might think he’s egotistical; the money or the wench or the whatever is the goal, not the approval or disapproval of bystanders.

Finally, a lot of people confuse arrogance with ego. A-listers (and I am including myself, again, this time) are, as a rule, colossally arrogant. That is, they have utter confidence in their ability to meet challenges that would humble or break most people. Do not be fooled by the self-deprecating manner that many A-listers cultivate; it is a mask adopted for social purposes, mostly to avoid freaking out the normal monkeys. But this arrogance is not the same as egotism; in fact, in many ways it is the opposite. It is possible to be arrogant about one’s abilities compared to the statistically average human being and the range of challenges one is likely to encounter, but deeply and genuinely humble when dealing with peers or contemplating the vastness of one’s own ignorance and incapability relative to what one could imagine being. In fact, this combination of attitudes is completely typical of the A-listers I have known.

The behaviors most people think of as “egotism” tend to be driven out by arrogance rather than motivated by it. If you really believe bone-deep that you are superior, you don’t act insecure and twitchy and approval-seeking, because you just aren’t! Arrogance doesn’t even have to be justified to drive out egotism – it just has to be there. It’s all the more powerful an egotism-banisher when the arrogance is actually well-justified by the A-lister’s track record. Thus, egotists are usually people who have not yet established their capability to themselves, or who had that confidence in the past but are beginning to doubt it.

Finally, I think a lot of people need to believe that A-listers invariably have flaws in proportion to their capabilities in order not to feel dwarfed by them. Thus the widely cherished belief that geniuses are commonly mentally unstable; it’s not true (admissions to mental hospitals per thousand drop with increasing IQ and in professions that select for intelligence, with the lowest numbers among mathematicians and theoretical physicists) but if you don’t happen to be a genius yourself it’s very comforting. Similarly, a dullard who believes A-listers are all flaky temperamental egotists can console himself that, though he may not be smarter than them, he is better. And so it goes.

Ego is for little people. I wish I could finish by saying something anodyne about how we’re all little when you come down to it, but I’d be fibbing. Yeah, we’re all little compared to a supernova, but that’s beside the point. And yeah, the most capable people in the world are routinely humbled by what they don’t know and can’t do, but that is beside the point too. If you look at how humans relate to other humans – and in particular, how they manage self-image and “ego” and evaluate their status with respect to others…it really is different near the top end of the human capability range. Better. Calmer. Sorry, but it’ s true.

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January 12, 2016, 01:26:08 AM
 #300

Thanks for posting that PRIVATE conversation (omitting your original PM to me I see), I knew you would.

You really are low!  Anything for attention and to attempt to discredit anyone else in the name of perceived superiority and authority.

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