DECENTRALIZED crypto currency (including Bitcoin) is a delusion (any solutions?)

[iamnotback]

Yet all existing monetary systems are also illusions. They are illusions that people have agreed upon and come to believe in. My proposal is also an illusion (just as Bitcoin is) and it is one that people could also decide to agree upon and come to believe in.

A bank triggers an algorithm, moves a number to your account, and tells you to spend the next X number of years paying that number back. Are you seriously suggesting that this isn't an example of stealing the only thing that really does have value - our time and energy?

Monetary systems which preserve the scarcity of resources are not illusions, because they work.

Your idea is to allow anyone to steal resources.

Please stop spamming my thread. I created this thread. I put a lot of effort into this thread. Please make another thread to debate your monetary theories. This thread is about decentralization of global ledgers, not about the monetary theory that we don't need a global ledger.

Please.

[Gash]

Hahaha shiny butts

Where do u bums come from?

A bakers hovel where u get paid for turning to the smallish rounded window in the ceiling and taking away smokes has vacancies for stoker staff, get ur ass over there

Fuck my centralized impression

Who makes such threads?

What u got to understand is that crypto is not being bred from ur ass, but rather from the hardware equipment which gets u a set of hash-producing computations analogous to any kind of production process in which dissipation of generic energy outputs a fucking yield. Ur crypto is a yield albeit intangible one, which is no way different from material sack of weed, being the output for consumption as well as hundreds of commodities. It does and will have value while it quantitatively demanded at each price point. In a way u mow the crop, u solve the blocks with the outlay of electricity for the hashing power delivered by ur PC which yields a farming reward, the only difference being that its delivered to NAND cells of ur SSD instead of a fridge.

Is it real? Yeah fuck its not a phantom energy.

Its physical and instead of tachyons has mass as any kind of the bit data stored is delineated by the negative electric charge in a filed-effect transistor. Whatever u write to ur storage does and will have mass.

Im talking about mass cause the only confusion with assessing the value of a intangible product comes from two standards the mankind has accepted as the regard that something is worth something else to be exchanged for, since it has the imperial merit of usefulness. With that is mind, the uniformity of value is represented by:

1. Quantity. Which is mass. If something is in the bigger quantity, its worth more.
2. Quality. Which is an energy waste required for production, measures how valuable the product be with regard to the complexity (time and resource consumption) of production.

Both are non-metric measures and could be adopted for evaluating the value of intangible goods in the same way u decide whats worth more in a physical world. Although mass and quantity is not something easily correlated with value of crypto because of the storage and delivery specifics tho, u can easily print bitcoin bills or mint physical coins to have a visual representation of fraction of a unit being deserved as carrying a value.

I wont read moronic shit about simulations, delusory illusion, illusory delusion and matrix kid's ravings cause I have a bacon on my grill...

TL;DR

1. Crypto is a commodity. If a need be, it may be materialized and replace the local real world money turnover. Unlikely global.

2. Crypto could be actually delivered on-demand. Its a matter of acceptance which would easily make flash memory sticks loaded with btc trade on parity with checks or paper savings bonds.

3. Crypto will be "relatively" decentralized when we have the autonomous nodes running out of human reach. Preferably in a deep space. There needs to be a space communications protocol for connecting peers.

[iamnotback]

Who makes such threads?

Me.

What u got to understand is that crypto is not being bred from ur ass, but rather from the hardware equipment which gets u a set of hash-producing computations analogous to any kind of production process in which dissipation of generic energy outputs a fucking yield.

Proof-of-work (PoW) is not the only objective metric of work.

And conflating the work value of issuance with the security of the global ledger is not a necessity, rather just an error of those who lack insight.

http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/

3. Crypto will be "relatively" decentralized when we have the autonomous nodes running out of human reach. Preferably in a deep space. There needs to be a space communications protocol for connecting peers.

You apparently do not understand the power vacuum economies-of-scale issues in PoW.

You can get off my lawn now.

[buwaytress]

I would tend to side with HugoStone's very broad view of the illusion/perception of bitcoin or any other "currency" of value, for that matter.

For me it's simple to illustrate. I would give almost anyone in this forum 1 BTC (at today's USD 740+ price), either through a send or just hand over wallet keys and he/she would be very happy to only give me USD100 in fiat.

But I could throw 100 BTC at my dad and he would call me a scammer if I asked for even USD1 in fiat for it.

The illusion that bitcoin has value works for those who choose to live in that illussion. It doesn't for those who don't.

[iamnotback]

The illusion that bitcoin has value works for those who choose to live in that illussion. It doesn't for those who don't.

Poor logic.

You've conflated asymmetrical cases.

Those who have CONFIDENCE in the monetary unit, do so because they trust the global ledger.

Those who don't have CONFIDENCE in the monetary unit, would not accept it as money any way.

Hugo wants to violate the sanctity of a global ledger, thus render money that never has CONFIDENCE. And if you can convince deluded people to have confidence in it for a little while, then it will end up as megadeath if widespread, because making production and resources free is stealing and destroys all production.

I think what Hugo is trying to get at is that our debt based monetary systems are also unsustainable because they allow one powerful elite group to give away for free what is not free by creating money out of thin air. Note that I proposed a technical solution recently to eliminate the ability to loan fractional reserve units of crypto-currency. Did you not see my amazing discovery?

Here is the link:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1558366.msg16877518#msg16877518

[HugoStone]

The illusion that bitcoin has value works for those who choose to live in that illussion. It doesn't for those who don't.

Hugo wants to violate the sanctity of a global ledger, thus render money that never has CONFIDENCE. And if you can convince deluded people to have confidence in it for a little while, then it will end up as megadeath if widespread, because making production and resources free is stealing and destroys all production.

I can't believe I'm reading this. "Violate the sanctity of a global ledger"? You have made a religion of the global ledger and turned it into a digital virgin goddess that needs to be protected from the sexual attention of infidels. This probably explains why you seem to be incapable of debating an idea which doesn't already align with your own and have to resort to insults instead. What is the "global digital ledger"? Can you see it? taste it? touch it? smell it? hear it? It is a digital abstraction that exists only in the form of an electromagnetic charge. Where do you think this "global digital ledger" goes to when you switch off your PC at night? Does it depart to Mount Olympus to dine with the gods? Read your own words and think about what you are saying. You are literally pulling the wool over your own eyes.

I think what Hugo is trying to get at is that our debt based monetary systems are also unsustainable because they allow one powerful elite group to give away for free what is not free by creating money out of thin air.

No. If your bank balance reads £1245.45 then this is just a number prefixed with a symbol. I can create 1245.45 (debt free) by typing it on my keyboard - I just have in fact. There is no fundamental difference whatsoever between the two numbers. They are just information in electronic form. The number 1245.45 does not need to be earned or issued as debt. It can be created out of thin air and unimaginable quantities of these numbers are materialising out of thin air with each passing second.

HS

[kiklo]

No. If your bank balance reads £1245.45 then this is just a number prefixed with a symbol. I can create 1245.45 (debt free) by typing it on my keyboard - I just have in fact. There is no fundamental difference whatsoever between the two numbers. They are just information in electronic form. The number 1245.45 does not need to be earned or issued as debt. It can be created out of thin air and unimaginable quantities of these numbers are materialising out of thin air with each passing second.

HS

And the Consensus between everyone reading that you create 1245.45 (debt free) by typing it on my keyboard ,
is that none us assign any Value whatsoever to your imagination and would trade you nothing for it.
Which Deems it to be worthless and your attempt at illusion Failed.
Which your System would also fail consensus , as the illusion is too weak.

At least the banks have a pretense of illusion, however there illusions also falter every few decades.
They are no better, but they are much better liars than your are HS.

 
 
FYI:
In the Beginning ,
Banks did exchange FIAT directly for Gold or Silver, which is why they used to have some value before their lying reach epic heights that it is today.

[HugoStone]

And the Consensus between everyone reading that you create 1245.45 (debt free) by typing it on my keyboard , is that none us assign any Value whatsoever to your imagination and would trade you nothing for it. Which Deems it to be worthless and your attempt at illusion Failed. Which your System would also fail consensus , as the illusion is too weak. At least the banks have a pretense of illusion, however there illusions also falter every few decades. They are no better, but they are much better liars than your are HS.

Again, no actual attempt to address any of the points I've made, just more insults. I've no idea at all who this "us" you're referring to is. Is it you? Is it you and iamnotback? Are you speaking for yourself or do you presume to speak for everyone?

You say the illusion is "too weak" (again, you present nothing in support of this other than your own opinion) and you prefer a "strong" illusion whereby you pretend to scratch about in imaginary dirt in order to 'mine' imaginary bitcoin. Your system is just a mining simulator.

https://s16.postimg.org/6h1frxgmd/Mine_Simulator.png

You're playing a game and pretending it's real.

HS

[kiklo]

And the Consensus between everyone reading that you create 1245.45 (debt free) by typing it on my keyboard , is that none us assign any Value whatsoever to your imagination and would trade you nothing for it. Which Deems it to be worthless and your attempt at illusion Failed. Which your System would also fail consensus , as the illusion is too weak. At least the banks have a pretense of illusion, however there illusions also falter every few decades. They are no better, but they are much better liars than your are HS.

Again, no actual attempt to address any of the points I've made, just more insults. I've no idea at all who this "us" you're referring to is. Is it you? Is it you and iamnotback? Are you speaking for yourself or do you presume to speak for everyone?

You say the illusion is "too weak" (again, you present nothing in support of this other than your own opinion) and you prefer a "strong" illusion whereby you pretend to scratch about in imaginary dirt in order to 'mine' imaginary bitcoin. Your system is just a mining simulator.

You're playing a game and pretending it's real.

HS

You're just peeved, No one wants to play your game.
Like I said in the beginning , Bank Notes were directly trade-able for gold, before they went to the full blown illusion.
Which gave them a historical pretense of value in everyone that does not research the banking system.
You want to start your system directly at the Full Blown illusion , the general populace is stupid, but guy they are not that stupid.
As long as someone is gullible enough to trade worthless paper for real goods, it gives that paper some value.
Without an initial exchange for real goods your delusional system can't even pretend to start.

 

[tempestb]

You guys need to stop.  You're writing children's story examples of how the economy works to try and get a point across to someone who wants to use Monopoly money as real currency, so long as the receiver "believes" that the money has value.  He won't.  It won't happen.  It's a waste of time.  Go back to the primary topic of discussion, please. 

[iamnotback]

And the Consensus between everyone reading that you create 1245.45 (debt free) by typing it on my keyboard , is that none us assign any Value whatsoever to your imagination and would trade you nothing for it. Which Deems it to be worthless and your attempt at illusion Failed. Which your System would also fail consensus , as the illusion is too weak. At least the banks have a pretense of illusion, however there illusions also falter every few decades. They are no better, but they are much better liars than your are HS.

Again, no actual attempt to address any of the points I've made, just more insults. I've no idea at all who this "us" you're referring to is. Is it you? Is it you and iamnotback? Are you speaking for yourself or do you presume to speak for everyone?

You say the illusion is "too weak" (again, you present nothing in support of this other than your own opinion) and you prefer a "strong" illusion whereby you pretend to scratch about in imaginary dirt in order to 'mine' imaginary bitcoin. Your system is just a mining simulator.

You're playing a game and pretending it's real.

HS

You're just peeved, No one wants to play your game.
Like I said in the beginning , Bank Notes were directly trade-able for gold, before they went to the full blown illusion.
Which gave them a historical pretense of value in everyone that does not research the banking system.
You want to start your system directly at the Full Blown illusion , the general populace is stupid, but guy they are not that stupid.
As long as someone is gullible enough to trade worthless paper for real goods, it gives that paper some value.
Without an initial exchange for real goods your delusional system can't even pretend to start.

 

HugoStoned's idea was basically already tried by username18333 and his Great Empire of Wealth coin, which now appears to be defunct:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=985481.msg11310540#msg11310540

Those two loonies should be comrades in the new Socialist Republic of Starvation Coin.

[hv_]

Funny this Money discussion here in the Decentral blog.

But I guess this is exactly where it belongs to since perfect money in terms of store of value or store of work needs an ideal decentral proof of work as kind of intrinsic value or feature.

Gold was the ancient best aproach to that.

Fiat WITH gold standard was a good try, but...

Bitcoin is next level.

Sure there are higher levels, but I'm not able to see it yet...

[HugoStone]

You guys need to stop.  You're writing children's story examples of how the economy works to try and get a point across to someone who wants to use Monopoly money as real currency, so long as the receiver "believes" that the money has value.  He won't.  It won't happen.  It's a waste of time.  Go back to the primary topic of discussion, please.

What is the title of this thread? "DECENTRALIZED crypto currency (including Bitcoin) is a delusion (any solutions?)". In what sense have I strayed from the primary topic of discussion? What is fiat if not monopoly money with familiar faces printed on it and issued as currency by decree? Use any Monopoly money recently, tempestb?

HugoStoned's idea was basically already tried by username18333 and his Great Empire of Wealth coin, which now appears to be defunct:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=985481.msg11310540#msg11310540

Those two loonies should be comrades in the new Socialist Republic of Starvation Coin.

Still asking you to actually address the points raised in my proposal, but again you have nothing to offer but insults. It's funny on one level, yet desperately sad on another because we see the consequences of existing monetary systems each and every day. Bitcoin has nothing to offer but more of the same.

Trust or 'confidence' is not something that springs into being fully formed overnight. Can you engineer a solution to 'trust' or 'confidence'? You trust your parents, friends and wife/partner because that trust has been built over time, yet for me that trust has yet to be established. What do you think my reply would be if you were to present me with an algorithm or mathematical 'proof' that claimed to demonstrate that the people you trust are 'intrinsically' trustworthy? I would say "Thanks, but I'll think I'll interact with them myself and come to my own conclusion."

Bitcoin has been around for seven years now and has been well publicised, yet despite the "sanctity of the global ledger" only a small minority of the population are prepared to trust it. Why? Because trust is not something that can be established with an algorithm. People have to be informed, they have to be persuaded that the benefits of using the new system outweigh the perceived 'costs' of abandoning the existing system, and they have to use the new system and establish trust in their own minds.

Regardless of the "sanctity of the global ledger", there are hundreds of millions of people out there who will never want to use Bitcoin. Try explaining Bitcoin to the millions of M-Pesa users in Tanzania and Kenya. They will want to know how Bitcoin feeds their children and stops them dying of malaria, and you will be lost for an answer. Once they realise that they will never, ever be able to afford to actually 'mine' the currency they will lose interest. They will say to you: "Mzungu, this is just another rich white man's game and we are (literally) sick and tired of playing it." Why? Because Bitcoin does nothing for them that the existing M-pesa system doesn't already do, because Bitcoin is not a real alternative - merely a pseudo-decentralised duplication of existing monetary systems.

Do you have anything at all to offer the community except insults and statements presented as 'fact'? Or is that substantially it?

HS

[iamnotback]

Do you have anything at all to offer the community except insults and statements presented as 'fact'? Or is that substantially it?

Yes I have a real solution for Africa and everyone else. They won't need to spend money on mining equipment. You managed to bury my important technical posts with garbage.

And my replies to you are facts. If you find facts insulting, then you have a problem with accepting reality.

Funny this Money discussion here in the Decentral blog.

But I guess this is exactly where it belongs to since perfect money in terms of store of value or store of work needs an ideal decentral proof of work as kind of intrinsic value or feature.

Gold was the ancient best aproach to that.

Fiat WITH gold standard was a good try, but...

Bitcoin is next level.

Sure there are higher levels, but I'm not able to see it yet...

I now know how to do the decentralized consensus of a global ledger without the failures of proof-of-work, proof-of-stake, DPoS (delegated proof-of-stake), or Paxos-like algorithms such as Stellar SCP (or the Byzantine agreement in Bitcoin-NG).

I solved all the (major) technical problems. I am not exaggerating. I have written down the issues in very precise detail in my whitepaper (of which half of the final draft is already published to private Git repository online and I am trying to get it all up there this week but I am going through it with a fine tooth comb).

For those who have forgotten that I am Legendary.

HugoStone you don't come in here as a Newbie with some hair-brained communist monetary theory, and expect to have solved a very difficult technical and economics problem that we've been working on non-stop for years.

Another teaser tidbit:

Benign vs. Malignant Power-law Distribution

[redacted]

Selfish Mining Example

[redacted]

However, an attacker can orphan every block mined by the minority when his hashrate exceeds 50%. This also enables the attacker to optionally censor transactions and monopolize (dictate) the minimum level of transaction fees. That the minority shouldn’t mine at all isn’t a Nash equilibrium if the community can’t prove that such an attack is underway, such as if the attacker has many IP addresses with justifiably slow propagation. Yet if the majority of the network is mining on pools, then it is seems likely the attack would be detected. Per the logic of the aforementioned quote of Satoshi, the rational attacker would balance the harm done (censoring and higher fees) with the market’s acceptance (appreciation) of the security “benefit” of a benevolent dictator who never allows double-spends.

The above is the future of Bitcoin.

[HugoStone]

Do you have anything at all to offer the community except insults and statements presented as 'fact'? Or is that substantially it?

And my replies to you are facts. If you find facts insulting, then you have a problem with accepting reality.

You haven't presented me with any, only unqualified assertions based on your belief in the "sanctity" of the global ledger. The global ledger seems to have attained the status of your own personal Jesus.

I solved all the (major) technical problems. I am not exaggerating. I have written down the issues in very precise detail in my whitepaper (of which half of the final draft is already published to private Git repository online and I am trying to get it all up there this week but I am going through it with a fine tooth comb). For those who have forgotten that I am Legendary.

No you have not, because you do not see that it was never a technical issue in the first place. Trust is a concept and can only exist between human beings. You have allowed yourself to become dehumanised to the extent that you think trust can be reduced to algorithms and created by a computer. The real issue is the way all existing monetary systems create a picture of 'the other' as a debtor who must be 'charged', found 'guilty', and obliged to hand over a symbolic token of their 'guilt'. This automatically destroys trust by creating a false perception of the other as someone who is likely to 'rip you off'. Existing monetary systems set this up as a self-fulfilling prophecy by creating an illusion of monetary scarcity where none exists, and requiring everyone to do battle for these illusory tokens of exchange. The solution is to change the way we perceive money and transactions: not as a burden of debt handed over grudgingly but as a gift freely given. This is precisely why I have suggested that it is not what we put into Bitcoin (in terms of code) that matters but what we delete from it.

HugoStone you don't come in here as a Newbie with some hair-brained communist monetary theory, and expect to have solved a very difficult technical and economics problem that we've been working on non-stop for years.

The above is just an argument from authority, the self-professed 'authority' being yourself. What you're really doing is dismissing my proposal for no other reason than that I haven't spent the last X years assisting you with your own solution. I repeat: you have yet to address any of the points made in my proposal.

The above is the future of Bitcoin.

That remains to be seen. It may or may not be the future of Bitcoin, but it's not the future.

HS

[iamnotback]

The above is just an argument from authority, the self-professed 'authority' being yourself.

No it is reality as has been demonstrated over and over in 1000s of years of human history. Your ignorance of world history is not my problem.

Never, ever has a prosperous civilization trusted a monetary unit (or even fungible unit-of-exchange) that could be created out of thin air by everyone.

Now you go on Ignore. Goodbye.

STOP SPAMMING MY THREAD WITH USELESS NOISE. GO CREATE YOUR OWN THREAD. Have a little respect to the person who put so much effort into this thread.

[HugoStone]

Never, ever has a prosperous civilization trusted a monetary unit (or even fungible unit-of-exchange) that could be created out of thin air by everyone.

It's only in the last decade or so that we've had the technology to allow everyone to self-publish a book. Similarly, we've only just reached the point where everyone (not just banks or bitcoin 'miners') can 'publish' their own money. In other words, your claim is baseless.

STOP SPAMMING MY THREAD WITH USELESS NOISE. GO CREATE YOUR OWN THREAD. Have a little respect to the person who put so much effort into this thread.

I've treated you with respect throughout, and you have responded with...? I have in fact started a new thread and hope you'll visit and continue the conversation on it. You're obviously intelligent, but (and I'm not saying this to wind you up) there seems to be something missing in you. I would very much like to inject a little 'human quality' into you.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1686288.0

HS

[iamnotback]

...there seems to be something missing in you. I would very much like to inject a little 'human quality' into you.

Welcome to the world of someone who has liver disease and is working 16 - 18 hours a day and am trying to do the impossible. I don't have time for noise. As well, to socially inept nerds in general, who tend to be more engrossed with their hacking than social with people.

Yet I am a people oriented extrovert, but it is a matter of priorities. I asked you on the prior page to please move the debate of monetary theory out of this thread. This is thread is a realistic discussion of technology for making a global ledger decentralized, not about making a presumption about monetary theory which has no basis in history.

I would be much more nice if you weren't interjecting right in the middle of a major discovery that I have which is the "Bitcoin Killer". My discovery is real and serious. Yours is pie-in-the-sky. Feel free to develop it further but please not on my watch.

[hv_]

Just found this video about a modified PoS (Prof Kiayias) , partitioned into time slots and with a random selection of new stakeholders

Shows nice graphs on theoretical central -> decentral and speed graph but missing full CAP theorem view. Watch at 15min:

https://youtu.be/pjYDWWEkgN0


At 35 min the new PoS model comes up.

Guess, it won t work....

[iamnotback]

Bitcoin "killer" approaching...

5. Satoshi’s Proof-of-Work


Dictatorship: Exponential or power-law distribution of the control of mining resources is a power-vacuum trending toward a winner-take-all disequilibrium.

Censorship: Permissionless free market to add transaction events and stand up consensus order (i.e. mining) nodes only until the winner-take-all “benevolent dictator who never allows double-spends”^* arrives with 51% concentration of systemic hashrate.

Monopolistic: Insoluble eventual monopoly on transactions fees, regardless of the level of any perpetual minted block reward and any decision or algorithm that could be proposed for block size adjustment.

Synchronous: No asynchronous concurrency of transaction ordering for enhanced scaling and throughput. Only the mining node (possibly a pool) that produces the next block may add transactions during the block period, and all transactions must be propagated to every node. Resiliency and liveness, provided by miners competing to produce the next block, is decreasing on trend to the winner-take-all mining centralization.

Undecidable: Long range retroactive chain forks (aka “long-con attack”) if orders-of-magnitude hashrate increases are lurking, e.g. if quantum computers appear.¹⁷

Aliasing: Applies anti-aliasing filter to partial orders, thus requiring high latency and variance of transaction confirmations, which is inefficient and only probabilistic, never final.

Wasteful: Burns waste heat for security instead employing the positive scaling law of open source for forming a global truth. And burns waste heat as an objective work for issuance instead of funding illiquid knowledge production.


---

^* _{Refers to the plausible outcome of the winner-take-all power vacuum which is described in the Selfish Mining Example sub-section.}

[redacted]

References

[redacted]

¹⁷	Serguei Popov. The tangle. §4.3 Resistance to quantum computations, p. 24, Apr 3, 2016.

[redacted]

Of course the detailed explanations are not shared with you until the paper is published, for reasons of competition from copycoins.