Bitcoin bucks : the solution to mass-adoption

[Erkallys]

I was just thinking at the moment : "why not use Bitcoin bucks that are not paper-wallet but which have the warranty to be exchanged against one Bitcoin when needed by the company who created the bucks ?". I think that would be a really good idea. This could solve the transaction time problem and thus make a huge step in mass-adoption. What are you thought on this idea ?

[NorrisK]

Isn't that a bit like the side chains that are being developped?

You buy 1 sidechain btc for 1 real btc and do you trades on the sidechain. When you want your btc back, you convert your sidechain btc back to btc.

Biggest issue is trusting that the company will keep the fixed rate and not change it to 0.98 btc for instance. Or even worse, run with your money.

[Erkallys]

Isn't that a bit like the side chains that are being developped?

You buy 1 sidechain btc for 1 real btc and do you trades on the sidechain. When you want your btc back, you convert your sidechain btc back to btc.

Biggest issue is trusting that the company will keep the fixed rate and not change it to 0.98 btc for instance. Or even worse, run with your money.

I was not aware of these sidechain things. The problem of sidechains is that it is still on your computer. Yes, trusting the company is the big problem, but if you don't talk about htis, just about the idea, would it be a good one ? As for me I think it is . I don't see any better way to help the mass-adoption in a so easy manner.

[shorena]

I was just thinking at the moment : "why not use Bitcoin bucks that are not paper-wallet but which have the warranty to be exchanged against one Bitcoin when needed by the company who created the bucks ?". I think that would be a really good idea. This could solve the transaction time problem and thus make a huge step in mass-adoption. What are you thought on this idea ?

So we have this nice trustless system to create bills that require us to trust a company?

[Erkallys]

I was just thinking at the moment : "why not use Bitcoin bucks that are not paper-wallet but which have the warranty to be exchanged against one Bitcoin when needed by the company who created the bucks ?". I think that would be a really good idea. This could solve the transaction time problem and thus make a huge step in mass-adoption. What are you thought on this idea ?

So we have this nice trustless system to create bills that require us to trust a company?

That's indeed that this system can't be applied world-wide. A small company, based in the town where you live could do this. Since you could see them, touch them, talk to them, the trust is no more a problem. You know their real identity, so they can't run away. And even if they do so, they will be found by the police.

[shorena]

I was just thinking at the moment : "why not use Bitcoin bucks that are not paper-wallet but which have the warranty to be exchanged against one Bitcoin when needed by the company who created the bucks ?". I think that would be a really good idea. This could solve the transaction time problem and thus make a huge step in mass-adoption. What are you thought on this idea ?

So we have this nice trustless system to create bills that require us to trust a company?

That's indeed that this system can't be applied world-wide. A small company, based in the town where you live could do this. Since you could see them, touch them, talk to them, the trust is no more a problem. You know their real identity, so they can't run away. And even if they do so, they will be found by the police.

Yeah, no thanks. Its easy to found a company with limited liability and just claim bankruptcy after you paid after a extremely high salary. Mt. Gox victims didnt get a refund either, its not that their address is unknown or that no one knows who is behind it.

[franky1]

I was just thinking at the moment : "why not use Bitcoin bucks that are not paper-wallet but which have the warranty to be exchanged against one Bitcoin when needed by the company who created the bucks ?". I think that would be a really good idea. This could solve the transaction time problem and thus make a huge step in mass-adoption. What are you thought on this idea ?

paper that has the backing of a company who "promise" to exchange..

ok lets imagine bitcoinica made paper bank notes in 2011 when everyone trusted bitcoinica
ok lets imagine mtgox made paper bank notes in 2012 when everyone trusted mtgox
ok lets imagine mintpal made paper bank notes in 2013 when everyone trusted mintpal

.. where are they now!!

the casascius coins are different as the private key is stored on the coin, and ANY bitcoin service or independent wallet that allows importing private keys can redeem funds. also the private key is stuck under a tamper proof sticker making it easy for someone to see if its been used.

the downside of a paper bank note is not only the risk of non-redemption if there is no private key attached (as you say not paperwallet) but also forgery costs just 3 cents of paper and ink.. far cheaper than forging a physical coin.

thats not to say that casascius coins are to be 100% trusted either.. but in a day and age where everyone has a phone, going old school with paper.. and then going fortknox by having to rely on a single service to be around to honor the funds.. seems a little backward

[NorrisK]

Isn't that a bit like the side chains that are being developped?

You buy 1 sidechain btc for 1 real btc and do you trades on the sidechain. When you want your btc back, you convert your sidechain btc back to btc.

Biggest issue is trusting that the company will keep the fixed rate and not change it to 0.98 btc for instance. Or even worse, run with your money.

I was not aware of these sidechain things. The problem of sidechains is that it is still on your computer. Yes, trusting the company is the big problem, but if you don't talk about htis, just about the idea, would it be a good one ? As for me I think it is . I don't see any better way to help the mass-adoption in a so easy manner.

If you leave out the trust in this, I still wouldn't be too happy about it.

The time to hold physical money or other stores of value is coming to an end. I don't want to run around with a physical note worth a bitcoin as I cant spend it without going to the exchange location.

[Erkallys]

I was just thinking at the moment : "why not use Bitcoin bucks that are not paper-wallet but which have the warranty to be exchanged against one Bitcoin when needed by the company who created the bucks ?". I think that would be a really good idea. This could solve the transaction time problem and thus make a huge step in mass-adoption. What are you thought on this idea ?

So we have this nice trustless system to create bills that require us to trust a company?

That's indeed that this system can't be applied world-wide. A small company, based in the town where you live could do this. Since you could see them, touch them, talk to them, the trust is no more a problem. You know their real identity, so they can't run away. And even if they do so, they will be found by the police.

Yeah, no thanks. Its easy to found a company with limited liability and just claim bankruptcy after you paid after a extremely high salary. Mt. Gox victims didnt get a refund either, its not that their address is unknown or that no one knows who is behind it.

The accounts could open to the public thanks to Bitcoin. This could prevent any risk.

I was just thinking at the moment : "why not use Bitcoin bucks that are not paper-wallet but which have the warranty to be exchanged against one Bitcoin when needed by the company who created the bucks ?". I think that would be a really good idea. This could solve the transaction time problem and thus make a huge step in mass-adoption. What are you thought on this idea ?

paper that has the backing of a company who "promise" to exchange..

ok lets imagine bitcoinica made paper bank notes in 2011 when everyone trusted bitcoinica
ok lets imagine mtgox made paper bank notes in 2012 when everyone trusted mtgox
ok lets imagine mintpal made paper bank notes in 2013 when everyone trusted mintpal

.. where are they now!!

the casascius coins are different as the private key is stored on the coin, and ANY bitcoin service or independent wallet that allows importing private keys can redeem funds. also the private key is stuck under a tamper proof sticker making it easy for someone to see if its been used.

the downside of a paper bank note is not only the risk of non-redemption if there is no private key attached (as you say not paperwallet) but also forgery costs just 3 cents of paper and ink.. far cheaper than forging a physical coin.

thats not to say that casascius coins are to be 100% trusted either.. but in a day and age where everyone has a phone, going old school with paper.. and then going fortknox by having to rely on a single service to be around to honor the funds.. seems a little backward

These companies are big ones. The little guy from the city, where he lived since he was born won't perform a world-size scam. You could also include a privatekey on the buck, and thus the value could be insured by the whole network, but anyone can simply write down on a paper the privatekey, give the buck has a payment, and then steal the coins. Paper wallet, like explained by "wallet" has been made to store value, not to trade it.

Isn't that a bit like the side chains that are being developped?

You buy 1 sidechain btc for 1 real btc and do you trades on the sidechain. When you want your btc back, you convert your sidechain btc back to btc.

Biggest issue is trusting that the company will keep the fixed rate and not change it to 0.98 btc for instance. Or even worse, run with your money.

I was not aware of these sidechain things. The problem of sidechains is that it is still on your computer. Yes, trusting the company is the big problem, but if you don't talk about htis, just about the idea, would it be a good one ? As for me I think it is . I don't see any better way to help the mass-adoption in a so easy manner.

If you leave out the trust in this, I still wouldn't be too happy about it.

The time to hold physical money or other stores of value is coming to an end. I don't want to run around with a physical note worth a bitcoin as I cant spend it without going to the exchange location.

This could seem old-school, but in small towns, this may help Bitcoin being advertised the right way and help the mass-adoption. This can be a temporary system, until everyone get used to Bitcoin. Also, how could you pay in small shops with Bitcoin ? Transaction times are way too long for any real-life use.

[franky1]

The accounts could open to the public thanks to Bitcoin. This could prevent any risk.

doesnt matter how open it is while running the scam. as soon as the decide to leg it.. its gone and people are left holding an emptybag of meaningless monopoly paper

These companies are big ones. The little guy from the city, where he lived since he was born won't perform a world-size scam.

trendon shavers lived in texas all his life.. but performed a world wide scam. even with people knowing his home address
so did many exchange owners..

You could also include a privatekey on the buck, and thus the value could be insured by the whole network, but anyone can simply write down on a paper the privatekey, give the buck has a payment, and then steal the coins. Paper wallet, like explained by "wallet" has been made to store value, not to trade it.

if the privatekey was sealed under a tamper proof sticker then that would hide the private key, until redemption.

but yes both in paper and physical coin there is nothing stopping people from making fakes. that display publicly the public key to show a value.. (random address grabbed from a block explorer).. and not have actual private keys to access it.. making it duff..

which would also do for your bitcoin bucks.. you can print out paper containing public keys to show funding.. but never actually own those funds..
EG
Craig Wright recently hit the news, where a few years ago he simply wrote down some public keys and duped his friend by saying that he owned the funds. and to insure it into a trust and use the trust valuation to get loans..
its soon came out that the funds were not even his because he just grabbed known funded addresses from 2009, which he knew would not be moved and thus gave him a long time to keep up the ruse.

[shorena]

-snip-
The accounts could open to the public thanks to Bitcoin. This could prevent any risk.

That means nothing if you are not the sole person to hold the private keys.

This could seem old-school, but in small towns, this may help Bitcoin being advertised the right way and help the mass-adoption. This can be a temporary system, until everyone get used to Bitcoin. Also, how could you pay in small shops with Bitcoin ? Transaction times are way too long for any real-life use.

As someone that bought breakfast with bitcoin, after(!) I ate and drank and seconds before I left the place, no one is waiting for a confirmation for small value items.

[Amph]

Isn't that a bit like the side chains that are being developped?

You buy 1 sidechain btc for 1 real btc and do you trades on the sidechain. When you want your btc back, you convert your sidechain btc back to btc.

Biggest issue is trusting that the company will keep the fixed rate and not change it to 0.98 btc for instance. Or even worse, run with your money.

I was not aware of these sidechain things. The problem of sidechains is that it is still on your computer. Yes, trusting the company is the big problem, but if you don't talk about htis, just about the idea, would it be a good one ? As for me I think it is . I don't see any better way to help the mass-adoption in a so easy manner.

and those bitcoin bucks were are sitting if not on your computer also? if they are on a centralized server it's even worse, and would kill what bitcoin is

if they are phisical thing, i don't thing they will work, basically it would be like having a possible worthless cash and bitcoin was meant to be digital anyway

[Erkallys]

But now let's imagine that the bitcoins are splitted among all the shops that accept it, with around 3BTC in each. This way, if the company collapse, the system can still being run. What do you think about this proposition ?

[franky1]

But now let's imagine that the bitcoins are splitted among all the shops that accept it, with around 3BTC in each. This way, if the company collapse, the system can still being run. What do you think about this proposition ?

third party hoarding funds and having people trust that their piece of paper cant be forged, or cant be pre-emptied is risky

imagine a shop worker accepts the note. redeems the amount to the customer but then does not destroy the paper.. instead the next day he walks over to a street vendor and hands the duff note.
the street vendor then uses it to pay the street licence to work at that patch of the street, the licence manager pays it to a staff member and the staff member tries to redeem it at starbucks
starbucks: "im sorry but we have to call the police you have tried handing over a forged note."

you might say that people can validate the funds still exist using their smartphones at each time its handed off.. but then,, if they have access to smartphones.. why need paper..

[Erkallys]

But now let's imagine that the bitcoins are splitted among all the shops that accept it, with around 3BTC in each. This way, if the company collapse, the system can still being run. What do you think about this proposition ?

third party hoarding funds and having people trust that their piece of paper cant be forged, or cant be pre-emptied is risky

imagine a shop worker accepts the note. redeems the amount to the customer but then does not destroy the paper.. instead the next day he walks over to a street vendor and hands the duff note.
the street vendor then uses it to pay the street licence to work at that patch of the street, the licence manager pays it to a staff member and the staff member tries to redeem it at starbucks
starbucks: "im sorry but we have to call the police you have tried handing over a forged note."

you might say that people can validate the funds still exist using their smartphones at each time its handed off.. but then,, if they have access to smartphones.. why need paper..

To prevent this, each buck could have a serial number and a QR code, associated to an address. When the guy will want to pay in a shop, the seller will have to quickly scan the QR code and see if there's any fund on it. If not, he won't accept it. The difference with a paper wallet is that the private keys are not stocked on the buck and thus prevent the stealing. This prevent also counterfeting.
This system could be really useful where I live. In my small city, there's no Starbuck, nor any shop that accept Bitcoin. However, I'm sure this could change if such a system could start. This could be applied in every samll city and thus the mass-adoption could a sweet memory.

[franky1]

To prevent this, each buck could have a serial number and a QR code, associated to an address. When the guy will want to pay in a shop, the seller will have to quickly scan the QR code and see if there's any fund on it. If not, he won't accept it. This prevent also counterfeting.

no it wont..
lets say i had 1 bitcoinbuck

i then create 1000 identical notes with the same serial number and qr code.
a street vender scans it and see's it has funds.. because the number match

but
so did the person at the shoe shop i handed them it 10 minutes later
so did the person at the music shop 5 minutes after that
and so on..

and then when they finally try to redeem it in the evening, after shop shuts.. only 1 out of the thousands places holding the bitbuck serial number can redeem.. which would be the first person..

i can get away with handing out hundreds of notes in a day before peoples work finishes to be able to walk to a redemption service. by which time they then find out its counterfeit.
again if they need phones to verify.. (not redeem) but just verify a serial number has value accounted to it.. then you might aswell just use the phone and do "offchain transactions"

EG
most exchanges have trading keys, where you can trade internally to peoples usernames.. think of it like funding someones paypal without having to do wire transfers.. you simply send funds from one username to another within the service.

offchain has less fraud risks between users than bank notes.. but has the same risks of central party bankrupcy/thefts

so even offchain is not the ultimate solution. but is atleast better than paper with serial numbers that need phones to validate..
as the time to validate can be more then the time to just say send funds offchain to "ShoeShop1998" via coinbase

This system could be really useful where I live. In my small city, there's no Starbuck, nor any shop that accept Bitcoin. However, I'm sure this could change if such a system could start. This could be applied in every samll city and thus the mass-adoption could a sweet memory.

id say probably easier to tell people to setup coinbase accounts and let them send funds between eachother offchain using their funds..

[Erkallys]

To prevent this, each buck could have a serial number and a QR code, associated to an address. When the guy will want to pay in a shop, the seller will have to quickly scan the QR code and see if there's any fund on it. If not, he won't accept it. This prevent also counterfeting.

no it wont..
lets say i had 1 bitcoinbuck

i then create 1000 identical notes with the same serial number and qr code.
a street vender scans it and see's it has funds.. because the number match

but
so did the person at the shoe shop i handed them it 10 minutes later
so did the person at the music shop 5 minutes after that
and so on..

and then when they finally try to redeem it in the evening, after shop shuts.. only 1 out of the thousands places holding the bitbuck serial number can redeem.. which would be the first person..

i can get away with handing out hundreds of notes in a day before peoples work finishes to be able to walk to a redemption service. by which time they then find out its counterfeit.
again if they need phones to verify.. (not redeem) but just verify a serial number has value accounted to it.. then you might aswell just use the phone and do "offchain transactions"

EG
most exchanges have trading keys, where you can trade internally to peoples usernames.. think of it like funding someones paypal without having to do wire transfers.. you simply send funds from one username to another within the service.

offchain has less fraud risks between users than bank notes.. but has the same risks of central party bankrupcy/thefts

so even offchain is not the ultimate solution. but is atleast better than paper with serial numbers that need phones to validate..
as the time to validate can be more then the time to just say send funds offchain to "ShoeShop1998" via coinbase

This system could be really useful where I live. In my small city, there's no Starbuck, nor any shop that accept Bitcoin. However, I'm sure this could change if such a system could start. This could be applied in every samll city and thus the mass-adoption could a sweet memory.

id say probably easier to tell people to setup coinbase accounts and let them send funds between eachother offchain using their funds..

Those bucks wouldn't be simple paper. I think there's a way to make the paper hardly counterfeiting. Also, the seller can also ask for an ID card, like you have to do for checks. Thsi way, if something like that happens, you know who to attack (via justice, not with a sword ).

He don't where you live, but there, people will trust more something if they can see the company. This behaviour is here because of the mainstream medias that covered the multiple Bitcoin frauds.

[franky1]

Those bucks wouldn't be simple paper. I think there's a way to make the paper hardly counterfeiting. Also, the seller can also ask for an ID card, like you have to do for checks. Thsi way, if something like that happens, you know who to attack (via justice, not with a sword ).

He don't where you live, but there, people will trust more something if they can see the company. This behaviour is here because of the mainstream medias that covered the multiple Bitcoin frauds.

asking for ID..
now your just losing even more confidence in the system you propose.

easier for you to research offchain transactions (using coinbase, bitstamp) as examples.
because if your going to do centralized hoarding (banks) then you might aswell use an app to transfer funds between users electronically and instantly. because paper money is so old school and seems that you now want ID verification just to hand over paper.. where as funds can be moved via apps instantly without formal ID or verification..

i think your missing the whole point of transaction security, missing the whole point of bitcoin privacy. missing the whole point of decentralized holdings..
but as i say if you want the centralized holdings route.. you might aswell make your own app that allows username to username transfer

[Erkallys]

Those bucks wouldn't be simple paper. I think there's a way to make the paper hardly counterfeiting. Also, the seller can also ask for an ID card, like you have to do for checks. Thsi way, if something like that happens, you know who to attack (via justice, not with a sword ).

He don't where you live, but there, people will trust more something if they can see the company. This behaviour is here because of the mainstream medias that covered the multiple Bitcoin frauds.

asking for ID..
now your just losing even more confidence in the system you propose.

easier for you to research offchain transactions (using coinbase, bitstamp) as examples.
because if your going to do centralized hoarding (banks) then you might aswell use an app to transfer funds between users electronically and instantly. because paper money is so old school and seems that you now want ID verification just to hand over paper.. where as funds can be moved via apps instantly without formal ID or verification..

i think your missing the whole point of transaction security, missing the whole point of bitcoin privacy. missing the whole point of decentralized holdings..
but as i say if you want the centralized holdings route.. you might aswell make your own app that allows username to username transfer

I've been franked . I was proposing to verify the identity because you asked me what would happen if something that have a really low probability would happen. I had to invent something. I don't want to personnaly put this system in practice, this was just an idea if someone was interested. Of course this would need strong debates on security, but a good idea never fall from the sky already perfect, it needs to be worked on.
I think that I'm proposing this because even if I'm 100% pro-Bitcoin, I still love paper money (I am a numismat, an old money collector).
This would be like a dream to see the best of the two worlds : the good old paper money and its ease of use and the cryptographical security of Bitcoin.
Also, this solution, if well-prepared, could get 100% of the people in Bitcoin, something that Coinbase usernames can't.

[keepdoing]

I was just thinking at the moment : "why not use Bitcoin bucks that are not paper-wallet but which have the warranty to be exchanged against one Bitcoin when needed by the company who created the bucks ?". I think that would be a really good idea. This could solve the transaction time problem and thus make a huge step in mass-adoption. What are you thought on this idea ?

In the current fiat system, the world has been moving away from cash via electronic transfer.  The most popular and "mass adopted" of these is the Debit Card.  There are already Bitcoin Debit Cards.

It seems to me that your forwarding solution is nothing more than a step backwards.

If you want to help mass adoption, go get a Coinbase/Xapo/Other account, and get a Bitcoin Debit Card and start using it.  Talk to your friends about it, and everytime you go in to buy groceries, make a joke about it... "Do you accept Bitcoin".  And when they say no, say, "Let try and see" and swipe your card and pay with your bitcoin, and tell them about it.

If you want Bitcoin to succeed and become mass adopted - need more boots on ground using bitcoin, and less yapping.  Oh, and Gavin needs to grow a pair and implement an intelligent hardfork solution using 2mb increase path w/controlled increases programmed in.

Sir Gavin, Knight of Bitcoin, annointed by the great King Satoshi was led astray by a devious Betrayer, the evil Black Knight of the Hearn, Champion of the Dark Realm of the Banks.  The Annointed Knight of the Bitcoin followed the whisperings of the Betrayer and now is paralyzed by the shame of his actions, hiding his face amidst the soft and easy comfort of foolish counselors.  And the Kingdom of Bitcoin is Divided, sliding into decay, and no one heeds the Voice of Wisdom, for it has been silenced by fools.  Ah, Glorious Knight!  Wherefore art thy former Glory and Courage!?!?  Or have they forever betrayed and abandoned thy people and thy King!?!?  Arise and shake off thy dishonor good sir, and do thy duty!  ARISE AND UNITE THE DIVIDED KINGDOM!!!!