I am here to guide all of you.

[maria6.0]

Bitcoin + mining = samething

we merge the two philosophies into bitcoin core.

Thats only to fix an old mistake.

What bitcoin needs now / today to gain traction equivalent to VISA or Amex or paypal is more user adoption. Users need consumer designed software that fill the specific needs. The user should not need any particular expertise to use the software service. Likewise, VISA or paypal do not require you to configure ssl ports or handle encryption.

Bitcoin needs to friendlify popcorn time style

making mining part of all users role wont help.. people are complaining about 1mb blocks.. just imagine it if everyone had to sit at 100% cpu and ram usage for just 0.00000001 a day (if syndicated/pooled) or 12.5btc if they are lucky this year, and 6.25 in 3 years when their luck comes in again if solo.

people just wont do it solo..

as for bitcoin needing to hit visa transaction limits.. well visa's world wide estimation is based on a culmination of several systems.. not one. so a close analogy is VISA USA =bitcoin, VISA EU=litecoin VISA UK=feathercoin, and so on
where cryptocurrencies combined=100000's of tx/sec

so bitcoins scaling requirements is not as big as you may think.
also its not something that needs to happen today. it can grow at the same rate that bitcoin community/adoption grows.

i do agree that the GUI needs improvements so that people who dont even like computers can use it. but i think that each GUI should have several general rules that cannot be broken. (main protocol rules) and then their own features and usage types  to give people options /choices. that way there is no "if it aint bitcoin-core it aint bitcoin" debate. because all implementations will have the same basic rules to ensure they all work on the same genesis backed chain

You are right Franky, but the idea is not to earn btc via cpu today. The point is to bundle mining and node transaction in one single bitcoin-core. So the mining subject is not a third subject.

Who here had to explain "Bitcoin" and "mining" separately to a friend or family member?

Thats the point Frank

Maria

[fortunecrypto]

For a newbie like me it took me 6 months to comprehend half of it,more so on a third world country who are not literate about this bitcoin technology ..

If you go to the street and tell people that you can make money by just running a software on a computer and withdraw it on an atm will think that you are going crazy

[maria6.0]

For a newbie like me it took me 6 months to comprehend half of it,more so on a third world country who are not literate about this bitcoin technology ..

If you go to the street and tell people that you can make money by just running a software on a computer and withdraw it on an atm will think that you are going crazy

It took you 6 months to comprehend because of the current way its portrayed. The mining part hurts the brain.

This is how the conversation should occur.

Noob: Hey i just heard about bitcoin today. how does it work?

You: Its easy, just visit the site, download the app and run it. By doing this you wil have created a wallet with a unique address and you become part of the network of transaction confirmations.

Noob: Wait.. so i downloaded it already and i see my btc address, how can I send some or receive some?

You: In order to send any amount, you first need to have some to be able to send. If you give me your unique address i can send you 1 BTC right now.

Noob: Ok.

You: Now you can also "generate" bitcoins by pressing on that button there, then select how much cpu power you want to dedicate to the process and now you're are a active node actively confirming transactions.

.......

And thats the start of a very interesting conversation that you need to follow thru.

A better idea would be to make mining on by default. You have to deactivate mining if you wish not to participate in this process. Not the other way

[franky1]

but even if 1,000,000 people solo mined.. it is irrelevant

others would syndicate (pool) their attempts and blocks would be solved by the pools.. no solo users.
its never been about how many people are solo mining.. it can even be 1,000,000,000 solo miners.. and a pool of just 1,000 combined would solve all the blocks and then those 1000 can then change the rules and control the network.

going back to solo mining is just a bit of drama that wont last very long before someone takes advantage to dominates again..

having 1,000,000,000 people mining does nothing.. but....here is the positive

those 1,000,000,000 people acting just as relays will ignore weird blocks that dont meet the rules of the 1billion moral users.. and so the pools blocks with negative rules wont propogate/relay.. thus making them orphaned.. and that has nothing to do with mining, and everything to do with the relaying and rule checking of solved blocks.

so id rather have 1,000,000 people just running as full node relays with no negative code.. dropping any blocks that appear to have negative stuff, that way only positive blocks get relayed and accepted as consensus..

then no matter what the 1000 syndicated pool does with their implementation.. their blocks get dropped if users dont like it.. again it has nothing to do with solo mining

[agrs]

in 10 seconds i can make code to make a program on 10,000 computers appear to have 'pressed a button'

so even though it would appear easier for people to get into mining without knowing code.. as its a nice easy 1 button and go..
their earnings would be 6 sats an hour because smarter people would have made a work around to be more productive.

i think the wa to get new people into bitcoin is to start them off as just users. and then gently teach them about hobby mining using altcoins, which can be more profitable while still benefiting from the learning experience.. and then if the are serious enough to join the ranks of the petahash level of mining with the funding to afford the systems required, then they can.

but reinventing the wheel wont bring back the glory days of horse drawn carts transporting gold.

what`s your problem?he said about new to cryptocoins people- they compare fiat goverment money and some bitcoinmoney that nowadays are issued by chinese and monopolistic datacenters(of course you tell them it is decenralazed ). idea is not to be able to mine bitcoin on calculator, but force,get people to know more and more about new system. earning bitcoins is easy on the altcoin-multipools that pays into btc wallet, computer only is needed. but how people will know about it?

better they will be able to use bitcoin than only mine and sell it for usd. idea of decentralazed money issue on the first place here right near the blockchain

[maria6.0]

in 10 seconds i can make code to make a program on 10,000 computers appear to have 'pressed a button'

so even though it would appear easier for people to get into mining without knowing code.. as its a nice easy 1 button and go..
their earnings would be 6 sats an hour because smarter people would have made a work around to be more productive.

i think the wa to get new people into bitcoin is to start them off as just users. and then gently teach them about hobby mining using altcoins, which can be more profitable while still benefiting from the learning experience.. and then if the are serious enough to join the ranks of the petahash level of mining with the funding to afford the systems required, then they can.

but reinventing the wheel wont bring back the glory days of horse drawn carts transporting gold.

what`s your problem?he said about new to cryptocoins people- they compare fiat goverment money and some bitcoinmoney that nowadays are issued by chinese and monopolistic datacenters(of course you tell them it is decenralazed ). idea is not to be able to mine bitcoin on calculator, but force,get people to know more and more about new system. earning bitcoins is easy on the altcoin-multipools that pays into btc wallet, computer only is needed. but how people will know about it?

better they will be able to use bitcoin than only mine and sell it for usd. idea of decentralazed money issue on the first place here right near the blockchain

Finally someone gets it.

[franky1]

im all for teaching people the principles of how the network works, the logistics, the implications, etc. but when you look outside of the box and see the button idea as a whole. it achieves nothing.

the mining aspect is never going to be fully solo distributed.. people will always find a way to use it to their advantage. so its a lost cause.

so instead, how about a new version of bitcoin program, which has this(but more)



where all elements that cause conflict can be controlled by the user, without downloads.. so they are not reliant on programmers trust of their best interests to implement their wishes or hope that a download is not full of dodgy code.

that way it teaches people that they are part of the network as they have full control over different things. not the programmers..
and they can learn about it too.. without having to rely on coders telling them that 20000 lines of code are ethically correct.

people would no longer need to fight over who to trust and what to trust out of the dozen different implementations.. they just set the limits and the discussion is more about how many also set similar limits to get consensus. removing alot of the 'fame game' politics of people trying to win trust to get them to download their quirky implementations..

[Cicero2.3]

I actually learned something by reading this thread. 

I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination. I have a general understanding of how mining and the network operates. I can tell you that there are a lot of us in the alt coin world because we see bitcoin being controlled by a group of elites with no realistic way to enter the bitcoin world because the price of equipment to mine is beyond our means or within our means but we know that most mining hardware is pretty much obsolete within weeks of taking delivery anyway. On top of all that manufacturers of mining equipment have a very checkered past and even if you manage to avoid all of the pitfalls above electricity cost differences favor large miners that can get better rates based on consumption. 

If you really want average Joe in the bitcoin world you must solve these issues. I buy bitcoin on occasion but only to buy clams because I know I can put it into my client and stake rather than trying to compete with huge resources halfway around the globe.

I know you guys can pick apart my argument here and quite likely show me how wrong I am, but to me this is reality. I have been in crypto currency for 3 years now. If BTC looks hopeless to me how does it look to the average person that knows very little about it?

[mamadmankan]

I actually learned something by reading this thread. 

I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination. I have a general understanding of how mining and the network operates. I can tell you that there are a lot of us in the alt coin world because we see bitcoin being controlled by a group of elites with no realistic way to enter the bitcoin world because the price of equipment to mine is beyond our means or within our means but we know that most mining hardware is pretty much obsolete within weeks of taking delivery anyway. On top of all that manufacturers of mining equipment have a very checkered past and even if you manage to avoid all of the pitfalls above electricity cost differences favor large miners that can get better rates based on consumption. 

If you really want average Joe in the bitcoin world you must solve these issues. I buy bitcoin on occasion but only to buy clams because I know I can put it into my client and stake rather than trying to compete with huge resources halfway around the globe.

I know you guys can pick apart my argument here and quite likely show me how wrong I am, but to me this is reality. I have been in crypto currency for 3 years now. If BTC looks hopeless to me how does it look to the average person that knows very little about it?

its not something that needs to happen today. it can grow at the same rate that bitcoin community/adoption grows.

[franky1]

I actually learned something by reading this thread.  

I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination. I have a general understanding of how mining and the network operates. I can tell you that there are a lot of us in the alt coin world because we see bitcoin being controlled by a group of elites with no realistic way to enter the bitcoin world because the price of equipment to mine is beyond our means or within our means but we know that most mining hardware is pretty much obsolete within weeks of taking delivery anyway. On top of all that manufacturers of mining equipment have a very checkered past and even if you manage to avoid all of the pitfalls above electricity cost differences favor large miners that can get better rates based on consumption.  

If you really want average Joe in the bitcoin world you must solve these issues. I buy bitcoin on occasion but only to buy clams because I know I can put it into my client and stake rather than trying to compete with huge resources halfway around the globe.

I know you guys can pick apart my argument here and quite likely show me how wrong I am, but to me this is reality. I have been in crypto currency for 3 years now. If BTC looks hopeless to me how does it look to the average person that knows very little about it?

the mining wont ever find a way to be ethically restricted to solo mining. but mining is not the important thing..
put it this way, if a dodgy miners decided to relay out a block that doesnt have enough 0000 in its hash to prove the difficulty. or the size of the block was 3mb.. everyone would ignore it, the block will be orphaned and the miner cant spend the reward.
so without mining, users have power..

in currency in general.. people dont need to buy a stick of dynamite/pickaxe to get into gold. people dont need a bank note printing machine to get into fiat.
but as long as people can spot fools gold or a counterfeit bank note. it can keep the circulation of currency under control

what should be the mindset is that the rich and dedicated people can invest big in petahashes of hardware, as that protects the network, and they can be awarded accordingly.. but if they do anything negative.. we will simply ignore their blocks and leave them penniless..
which is another incentive to not go off the rails.

we should make it easier for people to understand how users control what is acceptable and also control any acceptable changes without needing to rely on third party updates or trust

[interbtc]

It was a sad day when asics kicked in and tossed off GPU and CPU miners. A change in algo along the way would maybe be a better option i agree.
As mining is the core of bitcoin, it's sad to see it mostly centralized in China afaik, or any country for that matter. But anyways, it's too late to change that now.

[franky1]

It was a sad day when asics kicked in and tossed off GPU and CPU miners. A change in algo along the way would maybe be a better option i agree.
As mining is the core of bitcoin, it's sad to see it mostly centralized in China afaik, or any country for that matter. But anyways, it's too late to change that now.

even with change.. ultimately it will just curve around on itself and happen again.
even if we moved to SHA3 it would take literally 2 months for manufacturers to invent a new chip. and being smart manufacturers who would have fll control of the supply of the new chips.. would again sell them for 4-10 times the production price so that for every 1 chip an american buys at retail.. the chinese manufacturer can afford to build 3-9 chips for free.. thanks to their competitors paying..

[elizabethqueen]

Everyone knows me, Maria OG.

I am the oldest miner of this forum and I must say, we are getting distracted. Who cares if X or Y developer quits. Lets focus on educating about the benefits of virtual currency agains fiat "paper or digital form" currency.

The first mistake that was made was removing the easy mining feature. by doing this, you centralized mining on not only those with the knowledge to mine, but also the equipment needed. If it was left integrated with bitcoin core, than the distribution of the coin would have been by now broader. broader distribution of bitcoin means what we all know it meas.

Lets discuss about this AMA!

Maria

"Who cares if X or Y developer quits" i hope that mentioned to Mike Hearn thanks maria,for giving us nice advice

[maria6.0]

Everyone knows me, Maria OG.

I am the oldest miner of this forum and I must say, we are getting distracted. Who cares if X or Y developer quits. Lets focus on educating about the benefits of virtual currency agains fiat "paper or digital form" currency.

The first mistake that was made was removing the easy mining feature. by doing this, you centralized mining on not only those with the knowledge to mine, but also the equipment needed. If it was left integrated with bitcoin core, than the distribution of the coin would have been by now broader. broader distribution of bitcoin means what we all know it meas.

Lets discuss about this AMA!

Maria

"Who cares if X or Y developer quits" i hope that mentioned to Mike Hearn thanks maria,for giving us nice advice

Bitcoin failed in the distribution process. Proof of this is satoshis and my own bitcoin stash of +1million coins. We early miners ate all the warm pie.

Because it failed in distribution, today it is not adopted as the community would like.

But in a deeper reality, Altcoins + Bitcoins = Bitcoin. Its all one same thing and us as a community we need to learn to embrace that.

[jyakulis]

Meh it wouldn't hurt to be easier.

But I don't think that's the problem. Not everyone wants to mine. I think I even remember Gavin (someone who was a developer) had no interest in mining.

Here's the problem. You make a coin with a super difficult algo that only a cpu can solve and your total network hash rate is terrible. It's more decentralized but some of the value of the coin comes from the security of the network that is provided by a high hash rate.

While I think making a super difficult algo could help it needs to be done without rolling out the same tired code with just a different algo.

I'm talking completely reworking things and cleaning it up. Allow a higher transaction/per sec off the bat. Move to VB. Implement a more sophisticated confirmation structure that would allow contracts and payments over time, and add conditional confirmations. Simplify things so, as to not scare off the general populace.

If it's just reinvent the wheel and release cpu only algo. Well, people have already done it.

[Bitcoinpro]

What goes around comes around its a mathematical constant

 

[franky1]

Meh it wouldn't hurt to be easier.

But I don't think that's the problem. Not everyone wants to mine. I think I even remember Gavin (someone who was a developer) had no interest in mining.

Here's the problem. You make a coin with a super difficult algo that only a cpu can solve and your total network hash rate is terrible. It's more decentralized but some of the value of the coin comes from the security of the network that is provided by a high hash rate.

While I think making a super difficult algo could help it needs to be done without rolling out the same tired code with just a different algo.

I'm talking completely reworking things and cleaning it up. Allow a higher transaction/per sec off the bat. Move to VB. Implement a more sophisticated confirmation structure that would allow contracts and payments over time, and add conditional confirmations. Simplify things so, as to not scare off the general populace.

If it's just reinvent the wheel and release cpu only algo. Well, people have already done it.

though i personally love VB and many of the younger generation prefer it as their first attempts into coding..so i have had alot more success teaching people to understand bitcoins mechanics using vb easier than c++.. but C++ has got more utility for the die hard coders. i know its possible to write a fullnode in VB, i done it and a few others have too.. i know its possible to write a fullnode in java as others have done that, and other languages too. but c++ has other advantages.

and as for an algorithm change to try to force solo mining, well that will never happen..
anything a cpu does can be duplicated and refined into a more dedicated task (thats what asics are). so it wouldnt take long to make an asic.
even if the new algo had some 'hard drive mining' and 'ram mining' stuff which some alts have tried.. that too can be replicated too, so it wont kill off the pool/farm/syndicated mining race.

but if anyone wants to make an alt now.. the emphasis definitely should be on transactions per second, without causing too much bloat.
with added functionality for users to know and understand things like opcodes and block limits so they can self adjust the settings without relying on certain third parties who may have other agenda's, to come to the realization of how much power decentralized consensus has over miners. rather than the other way around

[BurtW]

If you want everyone to run a full node and/or mine you forgot a couple things here so I added them for you:

It took you six months to comprehend because of the current way it's portrayed. The mining part hurts the brain.

This is how the conversation should occur.

Noob: Hey I just heard about bitcoin today. How does it work?

You: It's easy, just visit the site, download the app and run it. By doing this you will have created a wallet with a unique address and you become part of the network of transaction confirmations.

Noob: Wait.. so I downloaded it already and I see my Bitcoin address, how can I send some or receive some?  Why does it say "Please wait for blockchain sync.  At your connection speed it will take about 8 days?"

You: In order to send any amount, you first need to have some to be able to send. If you give me your unique address I can send you 1 BTC right now.  You also have to wait for the entire blockchain to download to your full node and for the transaction to confirm.  Let's meet here in about a week when that is done.

Noob: Ok.

[A few days later]

Noob:  After a few days of constant downloading activity which cost me a fortune because I am on a plan that charges me per GB of data transferred the ap said "I am sorry you have run out of space on your disk drive"  How much disk drive space does this thing take up anyway?

You:  I forgot to tell you that you will need at least 60 GB of free space to download the full node mining ap today.  You will need to go buy a new disk drive, install it and download the blockchain again. I also forgot to tell you that as a full node you will be getting and keeping every single transaction that happens anywhere in the world from now on so you should probably buy a pretty good sized drive and upgrade your internet connection so you can handle the network traffic.  Speaking of network traffic, you will probably need to upgrade your data rate plan because you will be receiving about 2 GB per day and sending about 18 GB per day out to the peers that connect to you and you can expect the amount of traffic to go up over time.

Noob:  Not sure it is worth all that but I will give it a try.

[One week later]

Noob:  I upgraded my internet connection, upgraded my data rate plan, bought a new disk drive, downloaded the entire blockchain and I finally got that 1 BTC you sent me.  Thanks.

You: Now you can also "generate" bitcoins by pressing on that button there, then select how much cpu power you want to dedicate to the process and now you're are a active node actively confirming transactions.

[A few months later]

Noob:  I have been running with the "generate" button on for months now.  I have never received a single BTC but I have noticed that my electricity bill has gone up considerably.  I sold the 1 BTC you gave and it did not even begin to cover the cost of the internet and data plan upgrades, the new disk drive and the electricity I have spent trying to generate new Bitcoins.  I wish I had never heard of Bitcoins - they are a total rip off.

[zivone]

Interesting topic for a complete noob on mining like me. I'm sorry I will just have to comment on this so I can easily find it later when I have time to read all what is written here.

[maria6.0]

Noob:  I have been running with the "generate" button on for months now.  I have never received a single BTC but I have noticed that my electricity bill has gone up considerably.  I sold the 1 BTC you gave and it did not even begin to cover the cost of the internet and data plan upgrades, the new disk drive and the electricity I have spent trying to generate new Bitcoins.  I wish I had never heard of Bitcoins - they are a total rip off.

You: Thats because the difficulty is up. You see, the network performs a calcu...

Noob: ZzzzZZzzzzz...

You: