You guys gonna become paranoid about Ripple

[slothbag]

• Ripple is a settlement protocol
  
  Bob is my friend.  I have granted him $1 trust in Ripple.
  
  He can utilise this in two ways..
  1. I could sell him an apple and he sends me $1 ripple IOU.  He now owes me $1.
  2. Or maybe he ripples $1 from me, through him to someone else, he now owes me $1.
  
  I would know about the first one because something in the real world was exchanged and the ripple balance went to me. I might not know about #2 immediately but either way the result is the same.  Eventually Bob would pay back the debt at some later date.  At the end of the day ripple is just a settlement protocol, you owe, then you settle the debt back to zero.  You cant owe too much because peoples trust is not unlimited.
  
  Edit: Even if Bob never pays you back in Ripple, when the time comes where you have to pay him, you just say, i'll take it off your tab.. and send him back his IOU.
  
  
• We all need trust
  
  Trust is an integral part of advanced human society, you cannot survive without trust.  You trust your job pays your salary each month, you trust that the shop you ordered something from actually delivers, or that the item in the box is as it claims, or that the shop will refund the item if it doesn't. You have to trust other drivers to obey the road rules, you have to trust farmers have grown their food responsibly, you have to trust governments to do the right thing.  You have to trust your family will look after you in times of need.  
  
  Without trust you are on your own, I spose you could live in a cave with your own vege patch, pray that there is no natural disaster that destroys your water/food supply, cause you cant trust anyone else's food!
  
  We trust a million different things each day to operate as an advanced society.. Even Bitcoin has huge amounts of trust, we trust that the developers are honest with the software, and that the code reviewers are honest about their reviews, that the OpenSSL libraries have not been updated to created private keys that dont have a master key back door.  We cant check every part of everything all the time, there's just not enough time in the day.
  
  
• Bitcoin exchanges are gateways
  
  If you've ever used a Bitcoin exchange before then you are already using a Ripple style gateway.  They simply hold your balance (or at least say they do) and allow you to do your trades and cash out.  You have to trust that the exchange will honour their IOU to you at some point.
  
  Ripple will standardize the way gateways, banks, exchanges etc represent a balance (in the Ripple system), it will be a standardized protocol for settlements that is not run by any one organization, and will be free and open for anyone to use once they publish the source.  I trust they will publish the source, and if they dont, I wont use it.
  

I cant see anything wrong with Ripple, it compliments Bitcoin nicely, its another powerful tool to help take control of our own finances.  I'm quite surprised how many Bitcoiners have poo-poo'd the idea.

At the end of the day, Bitcoin spreads the money/debt risk over everyone who uses/holds it, where as Ripple focuses the risk on only those who you have trusted.  For short term, fiat money transfer, exchange (mtgox, bitstamp) deposits use Ripple, for long term savings use Bitcoin.

[creativex]

My problem is the way in which XRPs are being distributed. I greatly prefer BTC's method of monetary expansion.

[slothbag]

XRP are irrelevant.. hence why i never mentioned it. I got enough for a lifetime of Rippling.. why would I pay more than 1 satoshi for them?

[Mike Christ]

XRP aren't really an altcoin   But I think it's the XRP which is the most confusing aspect of Ripple.  I get everything else so far, but I don't know what I'm doing with these ripples exactly--isn't that what the IOU's are for?

[JoelKatz]

XRP aren't really an altcoin  But I think it's the XRP which is the most confusing aspect of Ripple.  I get everything else so far, but I don't know what I'm doing with these ripples exactly--isn't that what the IOU's are for?

The XRPs allow you to pay transaction fees. The idea is simply that they're not available in infinite supply so someone who wishes to clog the network with meaningless transactions (say moving IOUs back and forth between accounts they control) won't be able to congest the network forever. In periods of transaction overload, the Ripple network raises the required transaction fee, essentially auctioning off the available transaction slots. If an attacker wants to keep your transaction locked out, he must put more XRP behind each of his clogging spam transactions than you are willing to put behind your one important transaction.

Transaction fees are destroyed. XRP are used for transaction fees because they're the only currency Ripple can manage at the network level without requiring a central authority to hold or destroy them and with no risk that an attacker can put himself on both sides of the transaction fee payment.

Currently, the normal transaction fee in Ripple is set to 100,000 transactions to the XRP. (Just like in Bitcoin though, individual nodes can refuse to relay a transaction if they think the fee is too low or they are locally overloaded.)

[notme]

XRP are irrelevant.. hence why i never mentioned it. I got enough for a lifetime of Rippling.. why would I pay more than 1 satoshi for them?

Can I have some?  I don't have any and have no clue how to get them.

They are only irrelevant if you have plenty.

[slothbag]

Can I have some?  I don't have any and have no clue how to get them.

They are only irrelevant if you have plenty.

The distribution of XRP is certainly an interesting problem, I look forward to seeing how OpenCoin and the devs choose to distribute them freely once they are out of Beta testing.

I'm feeling generous, post your address and i'll send ya some.

[creativex]

Can I have some?  I don't have any and have no clue how to get them.

They are only irrelevant if you have plenty.

The distribution of XRP is certainly an interesting problem, I look forward to seeing how OpenCoin and the devs choose to distribute them freely once they are out of Beta testing.

I'm feeling generous, post your address and i'll send ya some.

Were you talking to me too?

rH2kyKcurSYu92fAEENB2W7hrZ4k5DXWoR

I have zero at this time and would like to try them out.

[notme]

Can I have some?  I don't have any and have no clue how to get them.

They are only irrelevant if you have plenty.

The distribution of XRP is certainly an interesting problem, I look forward to seeing how OpenCoin and the devs choose to distribute them freely once they are out of Beta testing.

I'm feeling generous, post your address and i'll send ya some.

I don't even know where to find the code to build it and run it so I don't have an address.  Point me to where I can get started and then maybe I'll let you prove how irrelevant they are. 

[moocowpong1]

I don't even know where to find the code to build it and run it so I don't have an address.  Point me to where I can get started and then maybe I'll let you prove how irrelevant they are.  

Currently it's fully centralized and closed source, so you have to use the ripple.com web client. OpenCoin says they will open it "soon".

[notme]

I don't even know where to find the code to build it and run it so I don't have an address.  Point me to where I can get started and then maybe I'll let you prove how irrelevant they are.  

Currently it's fully centralized and closed source, so you have to use the ripple.com web client. OpenCoin says they will open it "soon".

Hmmm....

Edit: rBSA2TQR8L5yvm54GFQoJMjyHwANi8VbTi

I won't trust it with much until I see some code.

[slothbag]

Sent.

Generosity all gone.

If anyone wants more, go ask at ripple.com/forum

[Littleshop]

You are comparing the risk of a 51% attack with the counterparty risk?  That is insane!  A 51% attack is now pretty unlikely while someone NOT PAYING (counterparty risk) is a huge risk.  People fail on debts ALL THE TIME.

Actually, the comparison between these risks is not as simple as you make it seem, especially because you have to take into account not just the probability of the risk occurring but also the magnitude of the damage if it does. But all I was doing was disputing the claim that Bitcoin is zero risk.

You can make it seem like a complex comparison but it is not.  NOTHING is ZERO risk.  Not even the USD that most people buy BTC or settle Ripple with.  And the magnitude of the damage if USD fails is a lot bigger then bitcoin failing. 

For our purposes, the risk of using Bitcoin is pretty low.  99.999% of the time or more the payment will go through.  I do not think the odds of getting paid back in ripple are nearly as high. 

[XxionxX]

I am going back to being a lurker on this topic, if I hear something positive to overcome all of the negative I might come back. This is just too frustrating to understand and I have decided that it is not worth pursuing.

What I understand which has made me give up:

• Ripples are pre-mined and possessed by a central company
• Seems like someone is trying to make money off me
• I received no roi on my hours of research and I am cranky

[pretendo]

OP, your sig is not what 'Schroedinger's Cat' means

[oakpacific]

OP, your sig is not what 'Schroedinger's Cat' means

OP is bored with us and has forsaken us for his former home at SA.

Huh? That's where he comes from? Hmmm, that may explain everything....

[oakpacific]

OP, your sig is not what 'Schroedinger's Cat' means

OP is bored with us and has forsaken us for his former home at SA.

Huh? That's where he comes from? Hmmm, that may explain everything....

Well, it was kind of an assumption on my part. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=148608.0

I recall him mentioning that he was "all in fiat" sometime ago when the price was around $5.5. I mean, he has basically been a bear ever since then and the price never went back down to a point where he could buy back without loss. I guess one gets weary after a year of trying to talk the price down.

It's not an assumption, we should take it at its face value unless proven(nobody cares to do I guess) otherwise.

And you could be right about his motives, but unlike proudhon's trolls, he used some serious amount of left-brain power to come up with some very scientific-sounding bearish arguments, his bear post thread is one example, although I have noticed from time to time he has (maybe) willfully neglected evidences people confronted him with. My guess is that he may wanted to talk the price down, but loathed to use the kind of tactics other bears employed.

[molecular]

If you can't trust anybody at all, you can't use Ripple.

That sounds horrible.

Let's look at a case: Egyptian dude working in Hong Kong want to send money to his loved ones back in Egypt every month.

• With bitcoin: Dude uses a China-based currency exchange. Wires his HKD from the paycheck to that exchange, withdraws bitcoin. Sends bitcoins to his wife in Egypt. She uses maybe some dude she found on localbitcoins.com to sell the bitcoins for local fiat currency EGP.
• With ripple: Dude uses a China-based ripple gateway. Wires his HKD from the paycheck to that gateway, withdraws HKD to his ripple wallet. Sends EGP (implicit currency conversion) to his wife in Egypt. Wife in Egypt uses "Alexandria ripple gateway" to redeem her EGP to paper notes.

I don't see the difference in required trust.

[oakpacific]

If you can't trust anybody at all, you can't use Ripple.

That sounds horrible.

Let's look at a case: Egyptian dude working in Hong Kong want to send money to his loved ones back in Egypt every month.

• With bitcoin: Dude uses a China-based currency exchange. Wires his HKD from the paycheck to that exchange, withdraws bitcoin. Sends bitcoins to his wife in Egypt. She uses maybe some dude she found on localbitcoins.com to sell the bitcoins for local fiat currency EGP.
• With ripple: Dude uses a China-based ripple gateway. Wires his HDK from the paycheck to that gateway, withdraws HKD. Sends EGP (implicit currency conversion) to his wife in Egypt. Wife in Egypt uses "Alexandria ripple gateway" to redeem her EGP to paper notes.

I don't see the difference in required trust.

Let me show you another case:

A brilliant Chinese/Indian guy excels academically ever since he is a child, and goes all the way to graduate from a prestigious American university, then finds a job in a big investment bank, and starts hanging out with all kinds of wealthy elites.

One day, his poor relatives/old buddies suddenly find out that they could borrow massive amount of credits, all thanks to this brilliant kid's social network, and they immediately start borrowing with joy, then this poor kid wakes up to see himself accumulating a mountain of IOUs, all simply because he hasn't properly configured his Ripple client, you could hardly say it's his fault, it's very hard for anyone to foresee such a thing. Well aware of his old  chaps' payback abilities, he figures that he has made enough in the America to live a comfortable life in his home nation,  and most likely the court there would not hold him responsible for such things, it's better to leave this nation immediately than being chased around by his elite friends ever since, so he books a ticket immediately and leaves the nation, leaving his American friends to f**k themselves.

Now of course, you could argue his American friends should not have trusted him so much, but what if, let's say, there are one or two more additional intermediaries in between? Things will get a lot more unpredictable.

The moral of this story is, when you deal with an exchange, you are always expected to willingly enter into contract with another entity, while using a P2P network to propagate debts/credits will very likely get some innocent people caught in a pile of debts, hardly with their knowledge.

[moocowpong1]

An important property of Ripple is that it is *impossible* (without an error) to end up losing more money than the sum of all the trust you choose to extend. You can't accumulate a mountain of defaulted debt unless you extend a mountain of trust to people. Conversely, if you extend somebody trust of 10 BTC, you are extending them the ability to take 10 BTC from you. Ripple doesn't magically make loaning money to people a good idea.

Edit: Also:

Now of course, you could argue his American friends should not have trusted him so much, but what if, let's say, there are one or two more additional intermediaries in between? Things will get a lot more unpredictable.

When you trust somebody, you are trusting them to honor their IOU's. Full stop. When a transaction ripples through several people, each of them is left holding some IOU's of the next person in line. Each person is responsible for honoring their own IOU's, independent of whatever else happens. If you refuse to honor your IOU until your friend honors his, that's reneging on the agreement.

In my opinion, the trust system in Ripple doesn't mesh well with most people's expectations about social credit.