Bitcoin making inroads with the hardcore gold bugs?

[Luno]

Is it that Gold Bugs share some other mentality with Bitcoiners also? Is gold in your vault taxed in the US, do you have to report it?

Are they afraid that gold has peaked and heading down like silver and Bitoin being the nearest non inflatable discrete alternative?

[Carlton Banks]

Someone who:
- trusts only gold and maybe silver as a store of wealth
- will take only physical
- mistrusts anything that doesn't have the so called intrinsic value in the role of money

I pretty much know you're not intending to misrepresent yourself, but I'd just like to point out that Bitcoin does have intrinsic value as money. More so than gold, or any other precious metal. With one caveat though, being that it's entirely dependent on a functional and free internet (either the internet or an internet will do the job fine). In respect of all other qualities of good money, Bitcoin wins. Precious metals only win in a world with no functioning internet. So in the present day situation, describing gold and silver as money isn't strictly right in my eyes as you can only realistically use it as a bartering tool to buy high value items in a semi-black market setting. You couldn't practicably use it to buy anything less expensive than around $20/€15.

tl; dr - If you could get someone to accept a silver coin to buy $5 of groceries, how would they give you your change? Cut a silver coin into fractions? Weigh you out some scrap silver? Not likely. Gold and silver are assets/commodities, not really money. They're the best assets out there perhaps, but not money, not in a 21st century sense of the word.

[becoin]

I already answered this.

Really? If I recognize elephants as money would you say I'm an elephant bug?

[ShireSilver]

You couldn't practicably use it to buy anything less expensive than around $20/€15.

tl; dr - If you could get someone to accept a silver coin to buy $5 of groceries, how would they give you your change? Cut a silver coin into fractions? Weigh you out some scrap silver? Not likely. Gold and silver are assets/commodities, not really money. They're the best assets out there perhaps, but not money, not in a 21st century sense of the word.

http://shiresilver.com/product/silver_half_gram_card (silver unit currently about $0.90)
http://shiresilver.com/product/gold_twentieth_gram_card (gold unit currently about $4)

I've also heard a presentation by a guy that hadn't heard of Shire Silver, wherein he suggested using gold leaf in plastic. You can have incredibly small amounts of gold that way. IIRC he was suggesting units like 1/1,000TOz and even smaller.

[Carlton Banks]

You couldn't practicably use it to buy anything less expensive than around $20/€15.

tl; dr - If you could get someone to accept a silver coin to buy $5 of groceries, how would they give you your change? Cut a silver coin into fractions? Weigh you out some scrap silver? Not likely. Gold and silver are assets/commodities, not really money. They're the best assets out there perhaps, but not money, not in a 21st century sense of the word.

http://shiresilver.com/product/silver_half_gram_card (silver unit currently about $0.90)
http://shiresilver.com/product/gold_twentieth_gram_card (gold unit currently about $4)

I've also heard a presentation by a guy that hadn't heard of Shire Silver, wherein he suggested using gold leaf in plastic. You can have incredibly small amounts of gold that way. IIRC he was suggesting units like 1/1,000TOz and even smaller.

I stand corrected.

That's a pretty smart innovation, you guys have clearly heard this particular criticism before! And of course, the argument wouldn't stand if it weren't for the heavily distorted prices that we pay for everyday goods anyway (not to mention the heavily distorted prices for precious metals)

[bitcoinsrule]

What is your definition of a hardcore gold bug? Because whatever it is, it certainly isn't mine.

Someone who:
- trusts only gold and maybe silver as a store of wealth
- will take only physical
- mistrusts anything that doesn't have the so called intrinsic value in the role of money

Well, I believe in all three, so I'm not sure what is so incompatible with that viewpoint and bitcoin. 

I have no problem using or seeing the intrinsic qualities that bitcoin possesses that are analogous to gold, ie limited supply, can't be inflated, requires an expenditure of resources to obtain, etc.

 Bitcoin fits in quite well with the physical possession quality on the second point.  I hold my bitcoins, no one else certainly does.

For your third, I'm not sure what you mean.  I see intrinsic value in bitcoin quite clearly.

Not trying to be argumentative, really, I just don't really see your point that a goldbug would shy away from bitcoin.  Perhaps it's the fact that I have a strong technical nature but Gold/Silver/Bitcoins are the only real way to go for me, the only USD I hold is for liquidity's sake.

[bitcoinsrule]

Someone who:
- trusts only gold and maybe silver as a store of wealth
- will take only physical
- mistrusts anything that doesn't have the so called intrinsic value in the role of money

tl; dr - If you could get someone to accept a silver coin to buy $5 of groceries, how would they give you your change? Cut a silver coin into fractions? Weigh you out some scrap silver? Not likely. Gold and silver are assets/commodities, not really money. They're the best assets out there perhaps, but not money, not in a 21st century sense of the word.

I hold silver dimes, grains, .5 oz rounds and bars, shot, etc.  There are ways.  I think I see your meaning behind the gold/silver being commodities but I will respectfully disagree with you on it "not really money".

[hazek]

I see intrinsic value in bitcoin quite clearly.

I agree with everything you said but the above quote disqualifies you from being a hardcore gold bug. A hardcore gold bug is really big on what he calls a tangible intrinsic value, just listen to James Turk in this interview to see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfzHC7Pf2fk

Being a gold bug and a Bitcoin bug is possible, being a hardcore gold bug and a Bitcoin bug on the other hand, at least by my definitions, is mutually exclusive. And if people like James ever decide to treat Bitcoin as money they will by my definition stop being hardcore gold bug and start being merely gold bugs.

It's the whole reason why this thread's topic is "Bitcoin making inroads with the hardcore gold bugs?" and not "Bitcoin making inroads with the gold bugs?".

[bitcoinsrule]

I see intrinsic value in bitcoin quite clearly.

I agree with everything you said but the above quote disqualifies you from being a hardcore gold bug. A hardcore gold bug is really big on what he calls a tangible intrinsic value, just listen to James Turk in this interview to see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfzHC7Pf2fk

Being a gold bug and a Bitcoin bug is possible, being a hardcore gold bug and a Bitcoin bug on the other hand, at least by my definitions, is mutually exclusive. And if people like James ever decide to treat Bitcoin as money they will by my definition stop being hardcore gold bug and start being merely gold bugs.

It's the whole reason why this thread's topic is "Bitcoin making inroads with the hardcore gold bugs?" and not "Bitcoin making inroads with the gold bugs?".

I see your point now, thanks for the link and the explanation!

[DeathAndTaxes]

If you could get someone to accept a silver coin to buy $5 of groceries, how would they give you your change? Cut a silver coin into fractions? Weigh you out some scrap silver? Not likely. Gold and silver are assets/commodities, not really money. They're the best assets out there perhaps, but not money, not in a 21st century sense of the word.

You do realize the US operated on gold & silver coins for over a century.   Later redeemable paper notes were used. 

Silver is "only" ~$30 per ounce.  Coins can be relatively easily be made down to 0.1 ounces which would be ~$3 in purcashing power.    If you need smaller denominations copper is great.  At ~$0.30 per ounce it is good for sub $1 "change".

Of course digital gold/silver is certainly possible.  Trust is a concern which is why bitcoin will increasingly make inroads into the PM community.

[tvbcof]

...
Of course digital gold/silver is certainly possible.  Trust is a concern which is why bitcoin will increasingly make inroads into the PM community.

Indeed.  One of the very first use-cases I saw for Bitcoin, probably within minutes of grasping what it was, was associated with providing a solution to the vexing issue of exchanging PM value across geography with some modicum of privacy and without paying high fees to third parties.  In this way, one would use Bitcoin itself as a type of 'digital gold'...for a few fleeting moments at least.

To my knowledge nobody has yet done a geographical exchange of PM's using Bitcoin as an intermediary.  I thought once about setting up a tool which would help with the planning and mechanics of doing such transactions.  I'm glad I didn't bother as it seems that the demand is low.

[Carlton Banks]

If you could get someone to accept a silver coin to buy $5 of groceries, how would they give you your change? Cut a silver coin into fractions? Weigh you out some scrap silver? Not likely. Gold and silver are assets/commodities, not really money. They're the best assets out there perhaps, but not money, not in a 21st century sense of the word.

You do realize the US operated on gold & silver coins for over a century.   Later redeemable paper notes were used. 

Yes, I do. Bear in mind that back then, all commodity prices were vastly different, as was the size of the population consuming them. The culture surrounding money was also pretty different (such that the fiat "revolution" had some pretty significant refuseniks, that knew full well how appallingly it could be exploited)

Silver is "only" ~$30 per ounce.  Coins can be relatively easily be made down to 0.1 ounces which would be ~$3 in purcashing power.    If you need smaller denominations copper is great.  At ~$0.30 per ounce it is good for sub $1 "change".

Yes, and copper may well be the next precious metal to have it's market price heavily leant on (against a backdrop of an even higher rate of fiat printing). Not saying that in itself makes precious metals any less good money though, it's commodity price distortion and money printing that are the problem, not anything inherent to metals.

Of course digital gold/silver is certainly possible.  Trust is a concern which is why bitcoin will increasingly make inroads into the PM community.

The number one thing you can trust with bitcoin is the size of the supply. It's not possible to hide Bitcoin supply from the world for centuries, or to discover new Bitcoin deposits in an untapped geological strata, or to dump thousands of extra tons into the supply once James Cameron and Jeff Bezos mine an asteroid. Not to say that all these things are massively likely, but with Bitcoin, they are literally impossible.

[SouthernComfort]

Cool! Great news!

[n8rwJeTt8TrrLKPa55eU]

away from Ron Paul himself accepting Bitcoin donations

for what? his pensioner booze cruises?

Don't be so snarky.  "Ron Paul" is shorthand for not just Ron Paul the person but also his organization (Campaign for Liberty) as well as closely affiliated entities (e.g. Rand Paul).  Ron Paul the person has retired from Congress, but almost certainly will not lead a "pensioner" lifestyle and will instead actively fundraise and solicit money on behalf of various causes during the next electoral cycle.  Whether one agrees with Paul's ideology or not, it would be tremendously positive PR for Bitcoin if he were to casually mention its acceptance as a means of donation during some future money bomb.

Daily Paul now accepting Bitcoin donations!  Inspired by lewrockwell.com move?
http://www.dailypaul.com/270457/the-daily-paul-needs-your-help-fundraiser

[flix]

http://shiresilver.com/product/silver_half_gram_card (silver unit currently about $0.90)
http://shiresilver.com/product/gold_twentieth_gram_card (gold unit currently about $4)

I've also heard a presentation by a guy that hadn't heard of Shire Silver, wherein he suggested using gold leaf in plastic. You can have incredibly small amounts of gold that way. IIRC he was suggesting units like 1/1,000TOz and even smaller.

1 milligram gold coins. Gold leaf encased in plastic. Purity can be checked by laser so that even vending machines and ATMs can check them.

I love the idea and it would be very cheap and easy to try out.

[DeathAndTaxes]

From the video link above I love the term "competitive currencies".  It is a more tech neutral term than cryptocurrency. It also in a single word implies that Bitcoin (and other competitive currencies) are voluntary associations and they have to COMPETE for users based on their value/utility (as a store of wealth, as a medium of exchange, etc).    The most awesome part is that by definition it points out that fiat currencies are NOT competitive.  They are forced upon citizens by the rule of law.

Wonderful.  I am going to start using the term "competitive currencies".

[robamichael]

From the video link above I love the term "competitive currencies".  It is a more tech neutral term than cryptocurrency. It also in a single word implies that Bitcoin (and other competitive currencies) are voluntary associations and they have to COMPETE for users based on their value (as a store of wealth, as a medium of exchange, etc).    The most awesome part is that by definition it points out that fiat currencies are NOT competitive.  They are forced upon citizens by the rule of law.

Wonderful.  I am going to start using the term "competitive currencies".

+1