Anti-Fraud Team -- Help Wanted

[ATC777]

[...] blah blah blah <couple good points> blah blah...

EVERYONE is a scammer... Grandma sent me $100 through Paypal, now she just hit me with a charge-back! E tu, grandma!? 

This type of paranoia and COMPLETE distrust of everyone will be the death of Bitcoin, which is an outcome I'm not willing to accept. I'm a lot smarter than you might think, my friend. If I was going to run a scam or misappropriate money I would have started out with complete anonymity as a goal. I wouldn't have put a real picture of myself on my profile here or left any footprints. I also wouldn't be going after puny little donations. I'd move to a country with no extradition treaty with the US and try to attack worthwhile targets like, hmmm, the NYSE or CME. But since I was raised in a Christian home I would prefer not to face the wrath of God for hurting people. What goes around DOES come around... and even the most ingenious criminals end up paying for what they've done to people. There's no reason to think you'll succeed where men like Pablo Escobar and Bernie Maddoff failed...

So scratch my name off the scammer list. I haven't made any attempt to be anonymous because I want people to find out who I am and what I'm doing. That's generally how one makes a company grow. I am not afraid of law enforcement because I've never stolen from anyone... I'm also not afraid of criminals; I have big guns, a big building and a lot of people at my side. 

I make mistakes like any other mortal, like thinking I could do Bitcoin business over eBay... but I own up to my mistakes and do what I have to do to fix it. In this case I stopped doing all business through their system before increasing our risk of loss and I'm trying to help other people who have lost a lot more than the $30 I may or may not lose.

Instead of trying to start a mudslinging/slander war, how about you help me? If you know about setting up websites I could really use your help. Make suggestions on how to transparently account for donations and show people what we're doing with them. Someone already sent approx $10, which is enough to reserve a domain name I believe. I have money to contribute right away. But I made my point that I am NOT bearing 100% of costs and labor. Ultimately I don't want this to be my full-time job, and want the Bitcoin community to take over. And yes, I am indeed a very persuasive writer and I'll use that skill to pressure Paypal and other companies to help us and bolster support for this new team.

So help me... Let's get a site up NOW. And let's figure out how we can openly and transparently account for donations. Right now I'm holding the money and you can watch the block-chain to see how much I get. All of it will be there to go toward this effort, plus some from my own pocket:

http://blockchain.info/address/1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs

By the way, I thank whoever sent that first 0.80 BTC donation from the bottom of my heart! 

Regards,

--ATC--

P.S. -- I can write server-side code if we make this an ASP.NET website, but I am a horrible web designer... a trained monkey could probably be better with HTML and CSS than me lol. Do we have a good designer or two in the house who wants to help?

[ATC777]

Also, I think you guys are right about it being a bad idea to try to take charitable donations for victim relief right now. I'll pull that down, and we'll take another look at the idea when we get more organized. I posted last night in the wees hours of the morning -- totally exhausted from hunting scammers. So perhaps I didn't think that through well enough... I just wanted to be able to help some of these people I feel very sorry for. But will pull it down now and get back to the idea later.

[franky1]

3 failures
1) too much waffle chatter trying to convince that your not after peoples money(guilty always talk to much defending themselves)
2) the only help you require is for someone to make a website to appear transparent
3) you still have not provided evidence that you know anything of financial systems, business/corporation responsibility or any legal knowledge that you could quote to paypal to scare /persuade them into changing their policies.

an anti-fraud business would have a team of people that know how corporations act, they know business/financial laws to know when a company is in breach of their terms/conditions. and they have the PR skills to word things in a way that cant be ignored.

your posts dont read as a business plan requesting legal assistance or people with corporate knowledge to help change the world. it just reads as a guy in his 20's that has never had a business of his own to know about the facts and figures. you just seem to want to grab bitcoins the easy way.

your trying to get us to trust you. what an antifraud company would do is to show proof of work so that there is no trust needed. stop trying to grab donations from a forum, set up a website, start getting paypal to change their policies post their replies on your website and use your website to request donations.

if you cant afford $20 for a website and maybe 20 minutes a day to write a email to the paypal HQ. then you should not be trying to ask for donations for a business plan which only have those 2 requirements.

and you don't have to worry about HTML. i know 10yos that use microsoft word to drop and drag images and tables into position, add hyperlinks and then click file, save it to HTML file type. its as easy as making a newsletter/brochure.

if the community wants an anti-fraud service they want to see people with legal and corporate knowledge or asking to recruit people with that knowledge.. not someone looking to set up a website with a damn donations totaliser.

show us an email that you sent to CPC electronics asking them to take down the website. show us any contact you have made with paypal. then we may consider you as MAYBE, just maybe being worthy of starting an anti-fraud business

[ATC777]

3 failures
1) too much waffle chatter trying to convince that your not after peoples money(guilty always talk to much defending themselves)
2) the only help you require is for someone to make a website to appear transparent
3) you still have not provided evidence that you know anything of financial systems, business/corporation responsibility or any legal knowledge that you could quote to paypal to scare /persuade them into changing their policies.

an anti-fraud business would have a team of people that know how corporations act, they know business/financial laws to know when a company is in breach of their terms/conditions. and they have the PR skills to word things in a way that cant be ignored.

your posts dont read as a business plan requesting legal assistance or people with corporate knowledge to help change the world. it just reads as a guy in his 20's that has never had a business of his owned to know about the facts and figures. you just seem to want to grab bitcoins the easy way.

your trying to get us to trust you. what an antifraud company would do is to show proof of work so that there is no trust needed. stop trying to grab donations from a forum, set up a website, start getting paypal to change their policies post their replies on your website and use your website to request donations.

if you cant afford $20 for a website and maybe 20 minutes a day to write a email to the paypal HQ. then you should not be trying to ask for donations for a business plan which only have those 2 requirements.

and you don't have to worry about HTML. i know 10yos that use microsoft word to drop and drag images and tables into position, add hyperlinks and then click file, save it to HTML file type. its as easy as making a newsletter/brochure.

if the community wants an anti-fraud service they want to see people with legal and corporate knowledge or asking to recruit people with that knowledge.. not someone looking to set up a website with a damn donations totaliser.

show us an email that you sent to CPC electronics asking them to take down the website. show us any contact you have made with paypal. then we may consider you as MAYBE, just maybe being worthy of starting an anti-fraud business

Actually, you're quite mistaken, sir... with all due respect. 

If you don't trust me that really doesn't matter. You shouldn't be shocked that someone will defend themselves when attacked. You punch me in the face and I punch back...

I haven't made any attempt to "showcase" my knowledge of finance, law and regulation. That doesn't exactly accomplish anything... this is the internet age, and anyone can go read a Wikipedia article and sound like they know what they're talking about.

Yes, I am young and ATC Enterprises is my first corporate venture. But I have over 5 years of planning, learning, research and testing put into it. In any case, it's no concern of yours. We're a small type-S, limited to 100 or less shareholders and we cannot take any new non-accredited investors -- we already have the maximum allowed number to still qualify for SEC exemptions and keep our legal requirements streamlined. The company is being financed and built with the incoming accredited investment capital from accredited investors (millionaires and institutions). So I am not soliciting you to invest (I can't, anyway) and couldn't accept your money and give you shares if you brought me $50k on a silver platter. Leave me be... this is my parade.

The anti-fraud "agency" or "organization" I'm trying to win support for has nothing to do with my company. I have no interest in profiting from it. I don't want to own it. I have other goals and ambitions in my life and a growing work-load. I think it should probably be a non-profit. All I'm trying to do is get the ball rolling.

So again... if you think you have the skill and knowledge to help run something like this then climb aboard and help. Don't trust me? Then don't donate. Stop trying to attack me personally and make useful suggestions and contribute your ideas. You've given me a few, but it's so mixed up with personal vendetta that it harms the quality of your suggestions. Again, I'm very inexperienced in web design and such so I definitely want some help to see this up and running sooner rather than later.

Actions speak louder than words... 

[franky1]

an anti fraud agency is a great idea, dont get me wrong. it is.

but there is more waffle in your last post without substance, have you even contacted paypal? or cpc electronics?

you spout about your atc business yet anyone can google a business and say its theirs. for a guy trying to start an anti-fraud organisation you should atleast know the fundamental things that us experienced guys look out for when weighing up trust.

from the way you have worded your proposals it seems that you have simply read the scam accusations sub forum thread, seen what has most recently happened and then used that info to try acting as a white knight. gaining peoples trust.

you have failed some fundamental points when doing a sales pitch i see more defence over reasons to donate. but no requests for legal advice, corporate advice, evidence that you have changed company policies or anything in progress at this moment, in the past or the future.

please before replying. back away from the computer, have a cup of coffee. sit down and write out a template for a email you would send to paypal or cpc electronics. and post it here aswell as sending it to them. if you want to get the ball rolling then this is your chance.

lets see your skills and strategy at work, you will win trust by showing results. not by spouting waffle. trust has to be earned not taken for granted. especially on the internet where you cant walk up to a person and slap them across the face with a wet fish.

enjoy your coffee and we look forward to seeing the template.

and please please please do not and i sincerely mean this,  do not reply with anything that sounds like this

In any case, it's no concern of yours.

[ATC777]

Wow... just... wow...

Dude, I'm going to visit my grandmother and my extended family tonight whom I haven't seen all year and we're exchanging some Christmas gifts. I really don't have time for making a rebuttal of outrageous conspiracy theories about white knights and such... but I'll be back in late tonight.

I have already contacted Paypal and eBay both. But I'm not even close to having done enough. It's a lot of work, and work takes time. This doesn't just materialize out of thin air, by magic. You seem totally unwilling to hold off on your wild conspiracy theories and let me work and accomplish something... instead, you're drawing my focus away from the thing that matters...

But as I've already told you numerous times I am working on it and I WILL post the results of my correspondence with them. What I have sent them so far is evidence I have gathered on behalf of those who (including myself) have been targeted by the scammers. It contains sensitive account information, and I am not at liberty to post that (could get me in hot water and undo all my efforts). So you're going to have to settle down and exhibit some degree of patience and understanding.

The simple solution to this is just don't donate if you don't like the idea. I've said that already. I have only once proposed donations, and that was in the OP. You're confusing that with my rebuttal of personal attacks and ludicrous accusations. No one has a gun to your head telling you to donate.

With hold your judgements until you actually see something, whether it be negative or positive, and don't accuse someone of something that hasn't actually happened.  

So relax, and I'll see you later...

--ATC--

EDIT ::

WTF? I've asked for NON-monetary support in the form of help with the website, forums, advice/counsel, ideas, et cetera numerous times, whereas I proposed donations once. So again, why don't you contribute something along the lines of help and stop attacking me?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

From your website (Facebook) http://www.facebook.com/ATCEnterprisesInc/info ...

About

ATC Enterprises, Inc. is a Baton Rouge conglomerate focusing on proprietary trading and investment. It also functions as a "parent" holdings company.

Mission

Our mission is simple: to provide the greatest return possible for our shareholders whilst practicing business in an ethical and responsible manner.

Description

As a proprietary trading and investment firm, ATC Enterprises uses its own capital to trade a wide variety of risk assets and financial instruments; this may include stocks, futures, FOREX (foreign currency), debt and bonds, physical commodities and derrivatives (i.e., options). These risk assets are traded on exchanges around the world (such as the NYSE or LSE). The company uses a range of specialized proprietary trading strategies and risk management techniques (and takes advantage of arbitrage opportunities) to earn consistent profits/returns from its trading activities. ATC Enterprises may also, at times, engage in various forms of investment. The company may, for instance, purchase real estate and properties, precious metals, stakes in investment vehicles (such as mutual funds, hedge funds, ETFs, et cetera) and other assets.

As a conglomerate and holdings company, ATC Enterprises focuses on the creation, development and acquisition of other profitable businesses. Of ATC Enterprises' most valuable assets, for example, is a small but highly capable technology and software development firm unofficially named "ATCWARE". ATC Enterprises both directly and indirectly funds and supports the growth and operations of its "child" companies or subsidiaries. We constantly search for new business opportunities; whether it is creating a new business to capture a new venue or acquiring an existing business to develop, grow and improve.

... yet you defend not using $10 USD of your own money to even register a domain name. And, all the activity shown to date with your newly founded enterprise centers around Bitcoin.

Pretend for a second your name is Bob Smith. With all the evidence presented to date, would you seriously deal with this Aaron Carter?

~Bruno K~

[greyhawk]

... yet you defend not using $10 USD of your own money to even register a domain name. And, all the activity shown to date with your newly founded enterprise centers around Bitcoin.

Pretend for a second your name is Bob Smith. With all the evidence presented to date, would you seriously deal with this Aaron Carter?

~Bruno K~

Only at gunpoint. 








Oh... Well.... 

[ATC777]

Oh, I wasn't aware that collecting guns was bad? 

[ATC777]

Whatever... I'm leaving now to go visit my family and I'll be back later.

But if you're going to start stalking me on Facebook and trying to slander me in every way possible now (and who knows what else) then don't accuse me of being the one trying to harm people, because you're trying to harm me now... totally uncalled for... If this is the way the community treats people then I fear Bitcoin isn't ever going to live up to its potential...

[franky1]

guys just hold off.. let this thread die, and if this dude truly has some tangeable skills in fraud detection, and skills to persuade corporations lets wait for it to happen.

he like many of us all wants a better world. but from a business investment point of view, its not worth it. id advice everyone to support him with advice and tips, but not money.

this guy sets up a ATC facebook page less then a month ago. no business listings, no website.. its too obvious to even continue pointing out to the guy with his failings. i surely hope he does not reply with more waffling defences without substance.

let this thread die and let the guy spend a few weeks planning a new way to ask for donations.
hopefully he only replies again on this thread with some tangeable information. which is not simply a complaint that he got personally scammed and wants money to go on a quest to cure all the scamming ills of the world.

and heres some tips for him to work on.
email teaching paypal of the un-corruptible "proof of delivery" that is known as the blockchain
email containing data about how paypal has blocked countries due to high scams happening in those countries.
email containing a request to get a name of a customer services supervisor as the number one contact point for anything bitcoin related.

ill leave him to work out why and how this stuff would be important. just to see if he already has the knowledge and skills to work out how to approach a corporation.

[repentance]

Oh, I wasn't aware that collecting guns was bad?  

You're missing the point.  You post on your company's FB page using your personal FB account which contains photos which convey an image which is anything but professional.

http://www.facebook.com/aaron.carter.7374480/photos_stream

Whether in Bitcoinland or elsewhere, one of the first things people want to do when dealing with a new company is get a sense of who the people behind that company are.  It's not "stalking", its due diligence.  None of the photos on your FB create an impression of you being "professional" - quite the reverse. You might as well have photos on there of you in your pyjamas swilling beer.

I don't care what you share with your friends on FB, but if you want to create an aura of credibility and professionalism then use a separate "personal" account which doesn't contain images of you looking like a hillbilly survivalist spree killer when posting on your company's FB.

[payb.tc]

Oh, I wasn't aware that collecting guns was bad? 

that's probably what adam lanza thought too.

[Rob E]

Great Incentive. . And beware starting an incentive like this you are going to get attacked by people who fare by fraud .. " bare assertion fallacy"  .  . very useful. .

[ATC777]

I had a long drive to and from my aunt's house to do some thinking. And Rob E is right... beat me to what I wanted to say.

When the thread first went up we had the beginnings of what was going to be a constructive conversation that would get somewhere. But a couple of people had it on their agenda, from the start, that they were not going to let that happen, no matter what the cost. They know their way around a forum, and how to yell and pound their chest the loudest to make people think they're right, or at least cast enough doubt into the equation to derail the thing. Notice the choice of words like "let this thread die"... And that really gives me cause to question what their motivations really are. Because it obviously isn't to help the Bitcoin community and reduce the danger of fraud that hangs over all of us (even scammers are at risk of being scammed, though I do not sympathize with them).

Regardless of what their motivations are, the idea of an anti-fraud campaign in the Bitcoin community is going to worry those who do make their living at fraud (or at least on a supplementary basis) and their ability to hide behind the anonymity of the Bitcoin, Tor and other technologies. A group of people ruthlessly hunting them down and exposing them like a pack of wolves on a scared deer is disquieting for some, to say the least... And those, like me, who have opted out of anonymity -- because we had nothing to hide -- could actually end up in danger of physical, financial or social harm if we were to be the ones who brought (or even were passively involved in bringing) financial criminals to justice. So now that I've thought about it, perhaps I'm not the best person to be the "dagger", due to my lack of anonymity. That role should be played by people who have a bit more internet/networking savvy and have put in the monumental effort to develop secure, anonymous identities. I should focus my efforts on the organization, advisory and "lobbying" front, which is what I'm best at anyway...

I am 100% sincere about my wish to see this team, project or whatever you want to call it get off the ground. Excluding the votes of "franky1", "repentance" and "E&G", who have given us ample reason to become better acquainted with our "Ignore" buttons, if community members are not comfortable with me handling donation money (which is understandable...I'm new here) then we can appoint someone else to manage the accounting for this. At this point I really don't even want to handle other people's donation money because even when I end up doing the right thing with it, as promised, the nonsense, conspiracy theories and slander will continue and it will be counter-productive to the entire effort. So I would suggest we find a veteran community member who has a history of being a reputable trader or money manager here who is willing and able to handle it. I would nominate someone like BCB, who I have seen (personally) can be trusted and is always very courteous and professional. I know there are others like him in this community, though I've never met or traded with them. We should definitely be wary of picking any of the noise-makers and trouble-men hanging around on these forums. Someone who can't carry out a civilized discussion is undeserving of any trust from anyone. So let's please pick someone reliable, honest and respectful whom we can be proud of. I'm still holding that little bit of coin (0.8 BTC) I received earlier and will be adding some more of my own to it to help this project. If any more coin finds its way to the address I posted (1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs) it will be visible in the block-chain and I will make sure every satoshi (and then some) goes to the right place -- be it directly to the effort itself or, preferably, to a delegated accountant whom we can rely on to make good use of it.

I have a nice little chunk of change in the wallet the donation address belongs to and it's ready to be used in this effort when people start stepping up to help with the website, lobbying efforts and other things we need done. If/when we select an accountant I will gladly surrender the 3rd party 0.80 BTC donation and my own 0.941 BTC "matching" contribution to that person, and any other coin the address receives (if any) and permanently remove this burden from my shoulders.

Block-chain info can be found here:
http://blockchain.info/address/1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs

Note that I tried to make a testing transaction of 1.00 BTC earlier today and then noticed the network deducted the 0.80 BTC donation received from that donation address. So I had first 1.00 BTC and then 0.741 BTC credited back to the donation address I created to put it back and include a donation of my own to it (totaling 0.941 BTC). Prepared to donate more when help is found...

Regards,

--ATC--

P.S. :: Will be pushing hard to produce some tangible results on the Paypal front. Going to spend some more time writing tomorrow and post it ASAP for peer review.

[BCB]

ATC777
I certainty appreciate your energy and eagerness and enthusiasm however you should spend a little more time reading the forums and getting to know the community before you start making grand plans and claims. And while you have to take some comments with a grain of salt many members mean well and actually know what they are talking about when they contribute to the dialogue. You don't have to agree with all of it but  I do think that as part of a community that highly values freedom of speech you have to try to understand their points.  

Read the scam accusation threads to learn what types of fraud and scams exist and to see what community members are already doing to combat fraud and scams. Join #bitcoin-otc and become a known and trusted member of that community.  And while bitcoin-otc and bitcointalk often act like a bunch of nervous nellies an pounce on noobs who ask uninformed questions and first accuse them all of scamming most of them do mean well.

While is applys more to lending and is not always accurate you should read the "how to spot a scammer" thread. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119896.0


Again bitcoin always welcomes new and enthusiastic members. Just try to get to know and understand the community before you try to naively change or improve it.

[greyhawk]

We'll also be looking into things like the fraudulent "CPC Electronics" trying to sell fake mining equipment and any other type of fraud targeting the Bitcoin community. It's up to us to work together and protect each other and our entire "free market" currency system.

For actually doing something instead of asking for donations, I am now working with the Manchester City Council Trading Standards Office regarding CPC. Anyone who can offer additional information or if there is a victim here (because according to their wallet there is at least one by now) please contact P.Minshaw@manchester.gov.uk referencing complaint # 047774

[edd]

Block-chain info can be found here:
http://blockchain.info/address/1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs

Note that I tried to make a testing transaction of 1.00 BTC earlier today and then noticed the network deducted the 0.80 BTC donation received from that donation address. So I had first 1.00 BTC and then 0.741 BTC credited back to the donation address I created to put it back and include a donation of my own to it (totaling 0.941 BTC). Prepared to donate more when help is found...

Regards,

--ATC--

Could you be a bit more specific about what happened here exactly. I don't understand how "the network" would deduct bitcoins from your address.

[franky1]

atc your latest post sounds like a proper business plan. if only your main thread started out as this.

one thing to learn about the community is when dealing with people we have never met face to face trust has to be earned and many people will do 'due diligence' checks and research the name behind the face before trading/handing money to them.

so please do not get offended by people checking your facebook. its not stalking. its just checking up on the person. its standard practice to check who you are dealing with.

and as an anti-fraud organisation it is one key thing that you need to accept and also impliment as part of your business ethos.

secondly many have also checked up on the atc enterprises inc. apart from a business that was formed in 1984 (before you were born) and dissolved in 1990. there are no other Louisiana records on state websites for your business. no yellow pages listings, no google listings. just a facebook page created on december 5th

which is another reason why those that do research people found your proposition initially flawed. due to your lack of credible background.

you might be the most honest guy alive in the world, but please take this under advisement. insulting people that do check up on you is like the opposite of what an antifraud organisation would do. they would actually appreciate people that do background checks.

wanting people to trust you just on face value of a facebook page and a photo is not a good strategy for someone opening an anti-fraud organisation.

the comments about making a reputable person accountable for the donations should definitely be implemented due to the many flaws in your background checks.

have you made a business plan about what kind of expertise you will require to aid you. and i still await the persuasive and detailed template email to paypal.
(not the personal emails about your personal victimisation you have already sent them)

settle down concentrating on donations for now. instead get the main agenda of the organisation sorted. you dont need a website for this. all you need is to request some expertise and send some emails. your day trading/ BMW M.Benz shows everyone that your not poor, so money should not be the main thing that you are repetitively trying to defend your trust over. earn your trust as a anti-fraud organisation CEO. not as a charity.

[ATC777]

Could you be a bit more specific about what happened here exactly. I don't understand how "the network" would deduct bitcoins from your address.

Your wallet is essentially a private key that "owns" the addresses you've created, and when you receive Bitcoins they are "attached" to the address you received it with. I made this simple visualization of it to demonstrate what I mean:



The 0.80 BTC donation was the last transaction I'd received. So when I tried to make a transaction for a larger amount, 0.80 BTC was debited from the donation address to carry it out. I didn't quite understand that this was the way it worked until I saw it. So I sent back two transactions to the donation address to "reattach" the 0.80 BTC (and some of my own) to the donation address -- just so that it could be seen I wasn't taking it away and had coin of my own to contribute..

--ATC--