Bitcoin is unsustainable, according to Vice

[CuntChocula]

they quote 110,000 tx per day..??(764 a block??)
um try triple that
which then makes the transactions per household 4.71 per household

and so a world wide currency that uses the equivalent electric of just 170,000 houses...... thats actually good,
seeing as there are 94,725 FIAT bank branches, which have equivelent floor plan of ATLEAST 4 houses (680,000 houses)
lets not forget the skyscapers and private office buildings of wall street.

lets not forget how many ATM's there are..

in short there are far more fiat buildings, using far more electric then the measly 170,000 household electric consumption.. yet fiat funds are not inflation protected not circulation controlled. not protected by as much security..

>world wide currency
I can send a BTCeanie anywhere in the world. Does it make Beanie Babies a "world wide currency"? If not, what is it that makes BTC a world-wide currency?

>bank branches, ATMs
Do you go to your bank's branch office to send VISA transactions? Most people don't either. Because they don't have to.
Bitcoin businesses have brick & mortar footprint too. Or, rather, they should. Maybe that way they wouldn't constantly get haxx0red for millions of dollars, usually belonging to other people.

[bargainbin]

Speed/irreversibility of transactions is transparency?

yes, you have money or not. 
in FIAT system, it's ... perhaps ... eventually ... wait a little week to be sure. 

You clearly don't understand the word "transparency."  Understanding the words you use is important

[franky1]

>world wide currency
I can send a BTCeanie anywhere in the world. Does it make Beanie Babies a "world wide currency"? If not, what is it that makes BTC a world-wide currency?

you cant buy a pizza, computer, furniture, vehicles with beanie babies.. but you can with bitcoin.. so bitcoin is a currency
also if bitcoin is not world wide. then tell me what country bitcoin is limited/restricted to?

is bitcoin only accepted in shops in just one country? or can you buy a computer in any country, from different merchants.
can you walk into a pizza place in america and use bitcoin over the counter face to face,, yes
can you walk into a pizza place in canada and use bitcoin over the counter face to face,, yes
can you walk into a pizza place in asia and use bitcoin over the counter face to face,, yes
can you walk into a pizza place in europe and use bitcoin over the counter face to face,, yes

>bank branches, ATMs
Do you go to your bank's branch office to send VISA transactions? Most people don't, either. Because they don't have to.

do i go to bitfury office to use bitcoin? most people dont because they dont have to.
QR codes are your friend

Bitcoin businesses have brick & mortar buildings too, or, rather, they should. Maybe that way they wouldn't constantly get haxx0red for millions of dollars, usually belonging to other people.

fiat businesses have brick & mortar retail buildings too. maybe FIAT brick and mortar businesses should have less buildings, as it would lessen the risk of identify theft by not having to spread your personal details to so many stores.

[Meuh6879]

You clearly don't understand the word "transparency."  Understanding the words you use is important

transparency is the ledger of Bitcoin.
bankster don't have this ... that's why, they fail at the end because they don't want trust anyone because of this ... particularity.

[RodeoX]

It's so much greener to put a check in the mail so that it can be driven to the recipient. The recipient can then drive it to the bank and the bank can fire up their computer and enter the data.   

Actually yeah, by far.  Let me break it down for you:
An average block contains 2.7 * (takes 600 seconds to mine a block) = 1620 transactions. At most (some blocks are mined empty, as in "no* transactions).
For this, miners receive 25 BTC, which, at current rate, is roughly 12,000 dollars.
Meaning ~$7.40 PER TX.
Assuming that 1/3 of that is electrical cost (let's be generous), that's about $2.50 in energy cost, PER TRANSACTION.

Unless you think US Post Office is spending $2.50 in gas alone to deliver a check...

Hmmm. That is interesting. I would have thought actual delivery would be much more inefficient. But $2.50 per Tx is a lot. I wonder how miners can be profitable charging only pennies per Tx?

[jonald_fyookball]

It's so much greener to put a check in the mail so that it can be driven to the recipient. The recipient can then drive it to the bank and the bank can fire up their computer and enter the data.   

Actually yeah, by far.  Let me break it down for you:
An average block contains 2.7 * (takes 600 seconds to mine a block) = 1620 transactions. At most (some blocks are mined empty, as in "no* transactions).
For this, miners receive 25 BTC, which, at current rate, is roughly 12,000 dollars.
Meaning ~$7.40 PER TX.
Assuming that 1/3 of that is electrical cost (let's be generous), that's about $2.50 in energy cost, PER TRANSACTION.

Unless you think US Post Office is spending $2.50 in gas alone to deliver a check...

Hmmm. That is interesting. I would have thought actual delivery would be much more inefficient. But $2.50 per Tx is a lot. I wonder how miners can be profitable charging only pennies per Tx?

Because their costs have nothing to do with the number of transactions they are processing but rather the blocks they solve.

[CuntChocula]

>world wide currency
I can send a BTCeanie anywhere in the world. Does it make Beanie Babies a "world wide currency"? If not, what is it that makes BTC a world-wide currency?

you cant buy a pizza, computer, furniture, vehicles with beanie babies.. but you can with bitcoin.. so bitcoin is a currency
also if bitcoin is not world wide. then tell me what country bitcoin is limited/restricted to?

is bitcoin only accepted in shops in just one country? or can you buy a computer in any country, from different merchants.
can you walk into a pizza place in america and use bitcoin over the counter face to face,, yes
can you walk into a pizza place in canada and use bitcoin over the counter face to face,, yes
can you walk into a pizza place in asia and use bitcoin over the counter face to face,, yes
can you walk into a pizza place in europe and use bitcoin over the counter face to face,, yes

I can buy a pizza from a pizzeria that accepts BTCeanie BTCabies. Granted, not many do, but not many accept BTC, either

>bank branches, ATMs
Do you go to your bank's branch office to send VISA transactions? Most people don't, either. Because they don't have to.

do i go to bitfury office to use bitcoin? most people dont because they dont have to.
QR codes are your friend

What does BitFury have to do with your analogy?

Bitcoin businesses have brick & mortar buildings too, or, rather, they should. Maybe that way they wouldn't constantly get haxx0red for millions of dollars, usually belonging to other people.

fiat businesses have brick & mortar retail buildings too. maybe FIAT brick and mortar businesses should have less buildings, as it would lessen the risk of identify theft by not having to spread your personal details to so many stores.

Again, what are you talking about? If I haven't made myself clear, I'll spell it out:
Bank offices = Offices of Bitcoin exchanges, Bitcoin payment processors, Bitcoin Foundation -- that sort of thing.

[CuntChocula]

It's so much greener to put a check in the mail so that it can be driven to the recipient. The recipient can then drive it to the bank and the bank can fire up their computer and enter the data.    

Actually yeah, by far.  Let me break it down for you:
An average block contains 2.7 * (takes 600 seconds to mine a block) = 1620 transactions. At most (some blocks are mined empty, as in "no* transactions).
For this, miners receive 25 BTC, which, at current rate, is roughly 12,000 dollars.
Meaning ~$7.40 PER TX.
Assuming that 1/3 of that is electrical cost (let's be generous), that's about $2.50 in energy cost, PER TRANSACTION.

Unless you think US Post Office is spending $2.50 in gas alone to deliver a check...

Hmmm. That is interesting. I would have thought actual delivery would be much more inefficient. But $2.50 per Tx is a lot. I wonder how miners can be profitable charging only pennies per Tx?

Because they get paid 25BTC for each block they solve. The few pennies they charge per tx are almost irrelevant. Many miners chose to mine *empty blocks* -- blocks containing *no* transactions.
That's why Bitcoin has 10% yearly base money inflation

Think of it like this:
Imagine the Central Bank paying commercial banks a few billion bucks every 10 minutes they stay open. They don't even have to conduct any business (process tx), as long as they stay open, they get a few billion dollars every ten minutes.
For Bitcoin miners, it's not a few billion dollars, it's 25 BTC every ten minutes.*In the banks/central bank example, the Central Bank gives $AFB/10mins (a few billion dollars every ten minutes) to all the branch banks. They have to divvy $AFB/10mins amongst themselves.
If bank A has 10 branches, and bank B 100, bank B gets x10 as much as bank A. For miners, that's decided with hashrate: If you do more hashes (which roughly means have more/newer gear), you have a better chance of getting that 25BTC reward. The reward isn't split among the miners -- the miner who solves the block gets the whole 25BTC. Hope that's a bit clearer.

[franky1]

??
What does BitFury have to do with your analogy?

bitfury. = bank
because bitfury is to do with mining.. (the settling of transactions)

Again, what are you talking about? If I haven't made myself clear, I'll spell it out:
Bank offices = Offices of Bitcoin exchanges, Bitcoin payment processors, Bitcoin Foundation -- that sort of thing.

bank are to do with the money handling onchain..=miners
off chain things like exchanges.. you might aswell call them paypal/western union/bureau de change
bitcoin foundation.. you might aswell call that financial advise office, silicon valley, consumer advice offices

you said that you dont need to physically go to a bank to use visa.. and i said i dont need to physically go to a miner to use bitcoin.

but now you are just trolling
..
but as a obvious troll i hope you do well with your beanie babies. im guessing you value them as much as your harry potter first editions.... kind of find it odd for someone that thinks bitcoin is not a world wide currency, that you actually think its worth wasting your time trolling on.. maybe its time you went to your basement and start hand washing your beanie babies to keep them prestine

[interbtc]

It's so much greener to put a check in the mail so that it can be driven to the recipient. The recipient can then drive it to the bank and the bank can fire up their computer and enter the data.   

Actually yeah, by far.  Let me break it down for you:
An average block contains 2.7 * (takes 600 seconds to mine a block) = 1620 transactions. At most (some blocks are mined empty, as in "no* transactions).
For this, miners receive 25 BTC, which, at current rate, is roughly 12,000 dollars.
Meaning ~$7.40 PER TX.
Assuming that 1/3 of that is electrical cost (let's be generous), that's about $2.50 in energy cost, PER TRANSACTION.

Unless you think US Post Office is spending $2.50 in gas alone to deliver a check...

You're only considering the part of transacting coins when you're calculating, whereas you should also include the fact that there is another point in generating blocks,
which is generating supply. Now calculate how much entire world is spending on generating their fiat and putting it in circulation.

[CuntChocula]

??
What does BitFury have to do with your analogy?

bitfury. = bank
because bitfury is to do with mining.. (the settling of transactions)

You clearly don't understand what banks do.
"... raise capital from investors or lenders, and then use that money to make loans, buy securities and provide other financial services to customers. These loans are then used by people and businesses to buy goods or expand business operations ..."
Also see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwriting
When you buy your first house, you go to a bank.
Does BitFury lend money? Can it help me refinance my house? Doe it engage in underwriting? No? Then it's not a bank.
Now you know.

Again, what are you talking about? If I haven't made myself clear, I'll spell it out:
Bank offices = Offices of Bitcoin exchanges, Bitcoin pay

you said that you dont need to physically go to ament processors, Bitcoin Foundation -- that sort of thing.

bank to use visa.. and i said i dont need to physically go to a miner to use bitcoin.
but now you are just trolling
..
but as a obvious troll i hope you do well with your beanie babies. im guessing you value them as much as your harry potter first editions.... kind of find it odd for someone that thinks bitcoin is not a world wide currency, that you actually think its worth wasting your time trolling on.. maybe its time you went to your basement and start hand washing your beanie babies to keep them prestine

If you're not aware of it, many people, much like yourself, invested in BTCeanie BTCabies because artificial scarcity¹ gave BTCeanies value. Just like Bitcoin.
I quote:
"...By 1998, parents were paying double or triple the retail price for “retired” Beanie Babies. Beanie Baby handbooks with catalogues of Beanie Babies and their prospective prices were being sold everywhere. A USA Weekly poll found that 64% of Americans claimed to own at least one Beanie Baby. [mass adoption! -ed] Peggy Gallagher, a collector from Chicago, once bought 30 “Chilly the Polar Bear” Beanie Babies from Ty’s Germany supplier at $7 each and later sold them for $1800 each. [see $1200 Bitcoin bubble]"

Granted, BTCeanie enthusiasts were only using beanies as a store of value that made them rich while they sat on their butts. They didn't think BTCeanies would become a world currency, but now Bitcoin enthusiasts have also given up on the idea of Bitcoin becoming A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. So now Bitcoin & BTCeanies have that in common, too
1. "[Ty Warner's] strategy of deliberate scarcity, producing each new design in limited quantity, restricting individual store shipments to limited numbers of each design and regularly retiring designs, created a huge secondary market for the toys and increased their popularity and value as a collectible."--http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/May-2014/Ty-Warner/http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/May-2014/Ty-Warner/

[jonald_fyookball]

  but now Bitcoin enthusiasts have also given up on the idea of Bitcoin becoming A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. 

only certain misguided smallblockers have.

The rest of us are as excited as ever about Bitcoin.

[CuntChocula]

It's so much greener to put a check in the mail so that it can be driven to the recipient. The recipient can then drive it to the bank and the bank can fire up their computer and enter the data.   

Actually yeah, by far.  Let me break it down for you:
An average block contains 2.7 * (takes 600 seconds to mine a block) = 1620 transactions. At most (some blocks are mined empty, as in "no* transactions).
For this, miners receive 25 BTC, which, at current rate, is roughly 12,000 dollars.
Meaning ~$7.40 PER TX.
Assuming that 1/3 of that is electrical cost (let's be generous), that's about $2.50 in energy cost, PER TRANSACTION.

Unless you think US Post Office is spending $2.50 in gas alone to deliver a check...

You're only considering the part of transacting coins when you're calculating, whereas you should also include the fact that there is another point in generating blocks,
which is generating supply. Now calculate how much entire world is spending on generating their fiat and putting it in circulation.

I'm comparing the cost of mailing a check to the cost of a Bitcoin transaction. "Cost of distribution"? I'm not interested in debasing my BTC by inflating base money supply at a rate of 10% per annum by "distributing" BTC to miners, no more so than you're interested in the FED "printing moar money out of thin air."

[lumeire]

  but now Bitcoin enthusiasts have also given up on the idea of Bitcoin becoming A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. 

only certain misguided smallblockers have.

The rest of us are as excited as ever about Bitcoin.

True, who said we've given up? Bitcoin is still young, anything still is possible IMO.

[CuntChocula]

 but now Bitcoin enthusiasts have also given up on the idea of Bitcoin becoming A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System.  

only certain misguided smallblockers have.

The rest of us are as excited as ever about Bitcoin.

It won't happen. The recent dev drama is nothing new -- was always there.  Bitcoin depends on consensus. Consensus is hard to reach, and, as it became painfully clear, even agreeing on what "consensus" means can't be agreed on.
The Hitchhiker's Guide tells us that flying is simple: it involves learning to throw yourself at the ground and missing.
"Clearly, it is this second part, the missing reaching consensus, that presents the difficulties."

[jonald_fyookball]

 but now Bitcoin enthusiasts have also given up on the idea of Bitcoin becoming A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System.  

only certain misguided smallblockers have.

The rest of us are as excited as ever about Bitcoin.

It won't happen. The recent dev drama is nothing new -- was always there.  Bitcoin depends on consensus. Consensus is hard to reach, and, as it became painfully clear, even agreeing on what "consensus" means can't be agreed on.
The Hitchhiker's Guide tells us that flying is simple: it involves learning to throw yourself at the ground and missing.
"Clearly, it is this second part, the missing reaching consensus, that presents the difficulties."

It already happened!  We already have a peer to peer currency.  Pretty amazing if you think about it.

And I believe that the economic majority will force us through the impasse on scalability should consensus prove to be illusive.

[Tavos]

It's so much greener to put a check in the mail so that it can be driven to the recipient. The recipient can then drive it to the bank and the bank can fire up their computer and enter the data.   

Actually yeah, by far.  Let me break it down for you:
An average block contains 2.7 * (takes 600 seconds to mine a block) = 1620 transactions. At most (some blocks are mined empty, as in "no* transactions).
For this, miners receive 25 BTC, which, at current rate, is roughly 12,000 dollars.
Meaning ~$7.40 PER TX.
Assuming that 1/3 of that is electrical cost (let's be generous), that's about $2.50 in energy cost, PER TRANSACTION.

Unless you think US Post Office is spending $2.50 in gas alone to deliver a check...

But what if the block size is increased? More transactions, same amount of electricity. Could keep increasing till it gets very cheap in terms of electricity.

[countryfree]

I don't like the idea of forecasts based on power usage per transaction, or cost per transaction because nothing's fixed. Computers may become much more efficient in the future. When Intel launched its latest microprocessor for laptops, it was saying exactly that, giving users more autonomy when running on battery.

Coming increase in block size will also change a lot of things.

[franky1]

You clearly don't understand what banks do.
"... raise capital from investors or lenders, and then use that money to make loans, buy securities and provide other financial services to customers. These loans are then used by people and businesses to buy goods or expand business operations ..."
Also see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwriting
When you buy your first house, you go to a bank.
Does BitFury lend money? Can it help me refinance my house? Doe it engage in underwriting? No? Then it's not a bank.
Now you know.

when you get a mortgage. you are not given funds from other peoples bank accounts..
money is created!! .. same as miners.. they create funds too (block reward)
here straight from the horses mouth
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q1prereleasemoneycreation.pdf
create money through loans

Learn more
please

waffly troll about CuntChocula's fascination of beanie babies that has not relevance to bitcoin

bored now.. moving on

[BurtW]

I don't like the idea of forecasts based on power usage per transaction, or cost per transaction because nothing's fixed. Computers may become much more efficient in the future. When Intel launched its latest microprocessor for laptops, it was saying exactly that, giving users more autonomy when running on battery.

Coming increase in block size will also change a lot of things.

The total amount of energy used for Bitcoin mining is independent of the efficiency of the mining equipment used.