Why IMO the focus needs to be on settlement and governments (and not on coffees)

[jonald_fyookball]

@franky1

It really makes little sense to launch a digital currency when you can use many means to send RMB digitally as it stands.

So I think the PBOC statement has either been poorly translated or is simply stupid (as why would they need to create something new?).

@jonald_fyookball

I have no idea what they are actually going to do but am worried that if they really did do "the right thing" then interest in Bitcoin in China might suddenly dry up (especially if they at the same time clamped down upon it again as they did back in 2013).

The whole "money is debt" thing as I've mentioned is not really what happens in China - so the same pressures that apply in the west do not apply in China.

Mostly what happens here is that corrupt officials try to grab as much RMB as they can and then move it overseas (along with themselves and their family) before they get caught.

This is how billions of RMB leaves China every year (and countries like Australia allow it by letting people buy multi-million dollar properties despite the fact that China doesn't let you send more than 50K USD overseas per year).

Since BTC is the easiest way to move money, would why interest in it dry up
if the chinese are all about moving money?  (Unless you're saying "doing the
right thing" would be creating a fixed supply digital asset with no capital controls.)

I think you worry too much about low probability events.

[franky1]

but I wonder what on earth they are going to do with all the USD that they have).

china has alot of british pounds too.. they are now on a land/property grab.. buying up high-rises, office space, power plants, ex-public services..
the chinese financial ninja's force governments in the west into debt and then using the funds the west pay china.. for china to then go and buy the assets and land from right under the western worlds feet

[CIYAM]

Since BTC is the easiest way to move money, would why interest in it dry up
if the chinese are all about moving money?

Back in 2013 (after the all-time high prices) the PBOC stepped in and made it impossible to put RMB into any Bitcoin exchange from a bank.

They could easily do that again tomorrow.

Also - most Chinese don't know about Bitcoin so I very much doubt it is actually being used much to move funds overseas at this stage (suitcases full of cash being carried over the border between Shenzhen and Hong Kong is the main way this happens now - once your cash is put into a Hong Kong bank you can TT the funds anywhere in the world).

[jonald_fyookball]

Since BTC is the easiest way to move money, would why interest in it dry up
if the chinese are all about moving money?

Back in 2013 (after the all-time high prices) the PBOC stepped in and made it impossible to put RMB into any Bitcoin exchange from a bank.

They could easily do that again tomorrow.

Also - most Chinese don't know about Bitcoin so I very much doubt it is actually being used much to move funds overseas at this stage.

 what does that have to do with China creating their own crypto?

[CIYAM]

what does that have to do with China creating their own crypto?

Nothing - but you were talking about "the easiest way to move money" being BTC - it simply is not true in China.

(the easiest way is actually to move physical suitcases of RMB from Shenzhen into Hong Kong which people are paid to do everyday)

[AgentofCoin]

Also - where is all this oppression happening?

(forgetting Xinjiang and Tibet as the vast majority of Chinese do not live in those two provinces)

It wasn't happening in Beijing when I lived there for five years and I have not experienced it in other cities that I've lived in China.

Seriously - in summer I can walk down the street with a beer in my hand and no policeman would even look at me oddly (in Australia if you did that you'd be likely to be charged).

I have actually met people that were in Tiananmen Square in 1989 (I doubt many other forum members here have) and I don't back away from saying that what happened then was very wrong but it isn't what is going on in most of the country today.

If you don't think China is doing anything different than anyone else and anyone who disagrees is influenced by Western propaganda,
then why do the rich in China want to leave China and also attempt to give birth to their children in Western Countries?

Why do they want western citizenship for their children? My parents didn't try to get me Chinese Citizenship. Who wants that?

China is Oppression and Control, West is Freedom and Choice. Even the Chinese elite know that and want more for their children.

We can agree to disagree, but to think that China would be the country to institute a truly free digital gold is mind boggling to me.

[CIYAM]

If you don't think China is doing anything different than anyone else and anyone who disagrees is influenced by Western propaganda,
then why do the rich in China want to leave China and also attempt to give birth to their children in Western Countries?

The reason is that they got their money corruptly - and are worried that they will get caught and prosecuted (i.e. they are criminals).

If you think that supporting criminal Chinese is such a good thing then go ahead and let them move into your country.

The "oppression" that you keep on going on about is actually in your imagination - how about you come over here to China and sit down and have a few beers to discuss?

(unless you are too afraid to come here because of the oppression)

[CIYAM]

If you don't think China is doing anything different than anyone else and anyone who disagrees is influenced by Western propaganda,
then why do the rich in China want to leave China and also attempt to give birth to their children in Western Countries?

It is the corrupt rich rather than the rich in general (but perhaps you can't tell the difference).

Hey - if you want to support corrupt Chinese coming to your country then go ahead and roll out the red carpet for them (I hope you don't expect them to actually do anything useful for your own country as corrupt officials don't tend to be the kind of people that do).

Seriously if you actually wanted to understand China then maybe come over here to live for a few years rather than just spouting the propaganda about it that you have been fed (no different to them spouting the same stuff about your country really).

[AgentofCoin]

...

...how about you come over here to China and sit down and have a few beers to discuss?
(unless you are too afraid to come here because of the oppression)

Frankly, after this conversation online, I'm pretty confident that if I did fly and land in China,
I would be closely watched and monitored by their non-uniformed secret police or intelligence agency.

[CIYAM]

Frankly, after this conversation online, I'm pretty confident that if I did fly and land in China,
I would be closely watched and monitored by their non-uniformed secret police or intelligence agency.

Seriously?

You are paranoid - I live here and have done so for over 9 years - surely the secret police should have found me by now should have they not?

[CIYAM]

In any case - the point of this topic is more about whether or not a government (I brought up the Chinese one because of the PBOC announcement but feel free to insert any other one if you prefer) might issue a "digital gold asset" and threaten the very point of Bitcoin (if it is still undecided about whether it is supposed to be digital gold or an inferior replacement for PayPal which is what I think the block size issue really is about).

[AgentofCoin]

Frankly, after this conversation online, I'm pretty confident that if I did fly and land in China,
I would be closely watched and monitored by their non-uniformed secret police or intelligence agency.

Seriously?

You are paranoid - I live here and have done so for over 9 years - surely the secret police should have found me by now should have they not?

Surely they have. I'm confident there is a large dossier on you, especially if you are having these conversations within their territory.
I'm not saying they are going to grab you and prosecute your or anything, just that they are data-mining you.

There is no value in surveillance of non-foreigners who still work in the fields, but not watching you would be an intelligence screw up.

In any case - the point of this topic is more about whether or not a government (I brought up the Chinese one because of the PBOC announcement but feel free to insert any other one if you prefer) might issue a "digital gold asset" and threaten the very point of Bitcoin (if it is still undecided about whether it is supposed to be digital gold or an inferior replacement for PayPal).

Yes, lets agree to disagree and I will go on my way.

[CIYAM]

Surely they have. I'm confident there is a large dossier on you, especially if you are having these conversations within their territory.
I'm not saying they are going to grab you and prosecute your or anything, just that they are data-mining you.

Well - I guess they are being very discrete about it then (would love to read my dossier).

As I don't support any particular government or have any political agenda I very much doubt that I would be of much interest to them at all (if anything I might be of interest to them for discussing crypto-currency technology but I think the Chinese do not think that they need any help with this).

[CIYAM]

I think it was @gmaxwell who in an interview I watched said something like "I believe we only have one shot at getting this right" (meaning the Bitcoin experiment) and I tend to agree with that.

Although I am sure I am going to be shot down in flames for this opinion I think that Bitcoin could be one of the biggest opportunities to change the world for the better (starting with the financial system).

Perhaps the US might complain about the majority of mining power being inside China but if they (yes I mean the US government) just decides to buy say 10% of BTC then they are going to be the beneficiaries of all that work being done in China.

I also tend to think that countries like Iceland (where power is almost free and about as green as it gets) will be where the next "gold rush" will take place (and that is already starting) so it doesn't just benefit one or two major countries.

[tss]

any national crypto will still be just for that nation.  it will be difficult if not impossible to use it overseas without conversion, tracking your assets, limits on foreign expenditure, cost associated, etc.  only bitcoin is the global currency with no boundaries or limits on its users.  that is why it will stay relevant in the future (assuming the fudsters dont take it over and wreck it entirely).

i can see a time in the not too distant future when blocks are bigger, fees are lower or 0 and the arguments will start that we need to lift the 21m limit in order to subsidize the miners and continue to keep bitcoin secure.  i will dump everything then for whatever is being offered.