Finally, Bitcoin Core = REKT

[Lauda]

Perhaps a register of interests for those working on the production infrastructure or proposing changes to the production infrastructure might be worth thinking about.

Then go ahead. Who's preventing you from helping out in the current situation? Make a website about this and I'm sure you will attract attention and others will help.

So then we agree on that point.  But lets see if Core will do it.
Based on Greg's comments thus far, I'm sensing resistance.

It makes sense though. SegWit + 2 MB block size right now would be pushing it.

Don't divide and conquer idiots, the price will halve.

This is why I would be willing to accept a fork that has a high consensus threshold. Whatever happens there we stand united (pretty much). I dislike the idea of splitting at 75% and forcing the other people to join because of high difficulty and whatnot.

Do you really want that after all the struggle we've been trough?

If Bitcoin does end up being harmed because of it you can be assured that this was all part of someone's plan.

[Peter R]

So then we agree on that point.  But lets see if Core will do it.
Based on Greg's comments thus far, I'm sensing resistance.

It makes sense though. SegWit + 2 MB block size right now would be pushing it.

Segwit as a hard fork could enforce a 2 MB limit on the transactional data (i.e., including the segwit data).  

With segwit as a soft fork, an accounting trick is necessary in order to limit the non-segwit data to 1,000,000 bytes (if segwit = 0, then this inequality reduces to "base <= 1,000,000 bytes"):

   base x 4 + segwit <= 4,000,000 bytes

But with segwit as a hardfork, we would have:

   base + segwit <= 2,000,000 bytes

Or more simply:

   transactional data < 2,000,000 bytes

[ATguy]

which got basicaly monopolized by BlockStream and Bitcoin

Can you explain this for me?  Bitcoin Core is a project with dozens of people. One of the main developers of Bitcoin Core is a founder of Blockstream. And this is "monopolized"? Please, help me understand what you're thinking here.

Meanwhile, the developers of other implementations just don't bother to tell you about their business partnerships at all. Makes me sick.

I hope you dont want compare partnership with PwC and sponsoring from successfull Bitcoin companies like Coinbase. If you do, I suggest you google controversies about PwC and what damage it can cause to Bitcoin when so many important Bitcoins developers are sponsored by Blockstream partnering with PwC.

Many important Bitcoin Core developers are sponsored by Blockstream and althought all these sponsored developers can have similar vision of Bitcoin future as mostly settlement layer for offchain solutions even if they received no Bitcoins from BlockStream, they are more likely to make little compromises than they would do otherwise. Maybe for example supporting artifficial blocksize limits now before offchain solutions exists and provably works - althought I dont understand why Blockstream want limit bitcoin adoption this way, I personnally know when Im paid by clients I dont mind doing favours back to keep good future relations.

[steeev]

the intensity of the attacks on the development teams that are bringing about a step change in the extensibilty of Bitcoin - via sidechains, and the refinement of the protocol thru segwit/IBLT/weak bocks - has a desperation about it.

and the inferior approach to development favoured by classic/gavin seems lacking in insight, and innovation - it appeases, it doesn't inspire...

forum noise is one thing - innovation is another...



Epicenter Bitcoin EB65 - Adam Back and Gregory Maxwell : Sidechains Unchained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE_elgnIw3M

Epicenter Bitcoin EB95 - Adam Back - Why Bitcoin Needs A Measured Approach To Scaling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYHyR2E5Pic

[DieJohnny]

bitcoin core devs are history, we will have new devs in a few months. bitcoin chaos is upon us and we will see the next 9 months that will be insane.... good luck all

[Lauda]

-snip-

This is just a opinion full of assumptions. Once you have evidence of anything then we might discuss it. Apparently you think Coinbase is a good (and honest?) company; is Brian a saint too?  
Just keep in mind that Maxwell's opinions have not changed since 2013 and Blockstream was funded in late 2014.

bitcoin core devs are history, we will have new devs in a few months. bitcoin chaos is upon us and we will see the next 9 months that will be insane.... good luck all

No. You are willing to risk a 6 billion market cape and hope that we will "have new devs in a few months". This is irrational at best.

[keepdoing]

Looks like those assholes at Blockstream are losing finally.  Looks like their 1MB block limit crippling of the blockchain so we all need to buy their Lightning Network isn't working out.  I knew people would finally jump over their very dumb arguments that 2MB would lead to centralization.  

I am not in favor of a private entity owning a group of core programmers who take a position to make valuable the offerings of that private entity.  That just reeks of improper.  Good riddance Blockstream.  Looks like the new kid on the block is Bitcoin Classic!!!

http://paymentweek.com/2016-1-20-bitfury-now-supports-bitcoin-classic-and-2-megabyte-block-size-seems-to-be-winning-the-battle-9421/?utm_content=bufferf2145&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer

What a beautiful post.  Couldn't have said it better myself.  I wonder how the Crypto world will remember Blockstream?  After the Fork.... will they be punished?  .... or forgiven?  

I know how I will be voting in that one...... assuming of course they do not IMMEDIATELY turn from their destructive ways.  Although, it is sort of ironic.... that the harder they fight against Classic, and the inevitable change that the OVERWHELMING majority has made clear it wants.... the more evil they look, and that is actually helping solidify resolve in the comunity against them, and for Classic.

[mikewirth]

Looks like those assholes at Blockstream are losing finally.  Looks like their 1MB block limit crippling of the blockchain so we all need to buy their Lightning Network isn't working out.  I knew people would finally jump over their very dumb arguments that 2MB would lead to centralization.  

I am not in favor of a private entity owning a group of core programmers who take a position to make valuable the offerings of that private entity.  That just reeks of improper.  Good riddance Blockstream.  Looks like the new kid on the block is Bitcoin Classic!!!

http://paymentweek.com/2016-1-20-bitfury-now-supports-bitcoin-classic-and-2-megabyte-block-size-seems-to-be-winning-the-battle-9421/?utm_content=bufferf2145&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer

What a beautiful post.  Couldn't have said it better myself.  I wonder how the Crypto world will remember Blockstream?  After the Fork.... will they be punished?  .... or forgiven?  

I know how I will be voting in that one...... assuming of course they do not IMMEDIATELY turn from their destructive ways.  Although, it is sort of ironic.... that the harder they fight against Classic, and the inevitable change that the OVERWHELMING majority has made clear it wants.... the more evil they look, and that is actually helping solidify resolve in the comunity against them, and for Classic.

Yep. 

It has now become the case that Classic is the will of the people, large block size is what the majority wants, and SegWit and sidechains is the Alt.  Core has benefitted mightily by calling everything the 'alt'.  Now, they are the alt.  Core Devs need to be replaced.  You can't work for Blockstream and impose unnecessary restrictions on bitcoin just because your cool new technology needs the capacity failure to drive demand.  100% bullshit.  Those Core Devs can't be trusted. 

Blockstream is 100% bullshit.  Time to stop this crap now.  Remove the 1MB cap. 

[Amph]

Looks like those assholes at Blockstream are losing finally.  Looks like their 1MB block limit crippling of the blockchain so we all need to buy their Lightning Network isn't working out.  I knew people would finally jump over their very dumb arguments that 2MB would lead to centralization.  

I am not in favor of a private entity owning a group of core programmers who take a position to make valuable the offerings of that private entity.  That just reeks of improper.  Good riddance Blockstream.  Looks like the new kid on the block is Bitcoin Classic!!!

http://paymentweek.com/2016-1-20-bitfury-now-supports-bitcoin-classic-and-2-megabyte-block-size-seems-to-be-winning-the-battle-9421/?utm_content=bufferf2145&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer

What a beautiful post.  Couldn't have said it better myself.  I wonder how the Crypto world will remember Blockstream?  After the Fork.... will they be punished?  .... or forgiven?  

I know how I will be voting in that one...... assuming of course they do not IMMEDIATELY turn from their destructive ways.  Although, it is sort of ironic.... that the harder they fight against Classic, and the inevitable change that the OVERWHELMING majority has made clear it wants.... the more evil they look, and that is actually helping solidify resolve in the comunity against them, and for Classic.

Yep. 

It has now become the case that Classic is the will of the people, large block size is what the majority wants, and SegWit and sidechains is the Alt.  Core has benefitted mightily by calling everything the 'alt'.  Now, they are the alt.  Core Devs need to be replaced.  You can't work for Blockstream and impose unnecessary restrictions on bitcoin just because your cool new technology needs the capacity failure to drive demand.  100% bullshit.  Those Core Devs can't be trusted. 

Blockstream is 100% bullshit.  Time to stop this crap now.  Remove the 1MB cap. 

no the majority want to stay with core, unless you have proof that classi has 90%+ of consensus

also blockstream is not related with classic and segwit, segwit is just a temporary solution, there will be an increase in the future with core

[Lauda]

-snip-

HI KEEP YOU ARE VERY INTEGRITY AND MUCH WISDOM

WHY THANK YOU MIKE IT'S SO NICE TO MEET YOU HERE, YOU ARE HIGHLY INTELLIGENCE

You're not even trying anymore which makes me wonder if you've become desperate? You're just working against Core and in favor of Classic. Usually most of the stuff that you've written is false.

[keepdoing]

You're not even trying anymore which makes me wonder if you've become desperate? You're just working against Core and in favor of Classic. Usually most of the stuff that you've written is false.

Lauda, you are such a lying, misdirecting shill.  I am hardly desperate....  I moved most of my bitcoins into Ethereum.  I'm up 30%.  If you and the rest of the idiots sitting around in denial about Core's demise continue to make it clear you are willing to kill Bitcoin if you can't have your way.... then I'll move the rest of my coins into Ethereum.  And I WILL make money.  Now, after you guys are gone, and Classic Devs back in charge.... I will come back into bitcoin.

But the FUD, misdirection, lies, and sabotage that is being played by Core/Blockstream supporters is getting dangerous, and I thnk this Fork may turn out very badly for people not careful.  What bothers me is that while MOST people may not step on any financial disater mines during hte Fork..... I think Core Supporters will stop at nothing, including spreading lies that may drive some hapless uninformed people to exchange coins that render them useless on the Core chain.   

Innocents will lose money.... because of people like you.

[mikewirth]

You're not even trying anymore which makes me wonder if you've become desperate? You're just working against Core and in favor of Classic. Usually most of the stuff that you've written is false.

Lauda, you are such a lying, misdirecting shill.  I am hardly desperate....  I moved most of my bitcoins into Ethereum.  I'm up 30%.  If you and the rest of the idiots sitting around in denial about Core's demise continue to make it clear you are willing to kill Bitcoin if you can't have your way.... then I'll move the rest of my coins into Ethereum.  And I WILL make money.  Now, after you guys are gone, and Classic Devs back in charge.... I will come back into bitcoin.

But the FUD, misdirection, lies, and sabotage that is being played by Core/Blockstream supporters is getting dangerous, and I thnk this Fork may turn out very badly for people not careful.  What bothers me is that while MOST people may not step on any financial disater mines during hte Fork..... I think Core Supporters will stop at nothing, including spreading lies that may drive some hapless uninformed people to exchange coins that render them useless on the Core chain.   

Innocents will lose money.... because of people like you.

Core/Blockstream is crazy to think bitcoiners are just going to sit around while they bend the direction of the network into their own little private project.  No way.  Bitcoiners do not like privatization. 

Core devs are conflicted.  It is a conflict of interest that they impose a 1MB blocksize which clearly serves no purpose other than to drive need for their bullshit sidechain solutions which are going to generate money for their company. 

Core = Blockstream.  We need Classic today and 8MB blocks to render Core/Blockstream irrelevant.  How did Maxwell get so much power to stop the masses anyway?  This 'Veto' power is dangerous.

[mikewirth]

-snip-

HI KEEP YOU ARE VERY INTEGRITY AND MUCH WISDOM

WHY THANK YOU MIKE IT'S SO NICE TO MEET YOU HERE, YOU ARE HIGHLY INTELLIGENCE

You're not even trying anymore which makes me wonder if you've become desperate? You're just working against Core and in favor of Classic. Usually most of the stuff that you've written is false.

Moronic memes won't make your case any better.  Blockstream is trying to own Bitcoin by calling everything else an 'Alt'.  Large blocks are needed, necessary and prudent.  Blockstream is a private company trying to cripple blockchain so people will buy their solution.  They've got to be stopped!

[Lauda]

Moronic memes won't make your case any better.  Blockstream is trying to own Bitcoin by calling everything else an 'Alt'. 

You have no humor which tells me something. Anyhow, Blockstream never really called everything else an "alt". You're really confused, or you've been deluded by people spreading propaganda or it is because of something else. You're confusing Blockstream with theymos in this case.

Large blocks are needed, necessary and prudent. 

Large blocks are not needed right now. We need a increase in transaction capacity. This does not mean that we need to increase the block size necessarily. Segwit will do just fine for now.

Blockstream is a private company trying to cripple blockchain so people will buy their solution.  They've got to be stopped!

Sidechains are open source, LN is open source and free to use. What's your point here exactly? You're not buying anything here.
Please avoid ad hominem, propaganda and baseless accusations against anyone. One could argue that Gavin is corrupted by the CIA, but it is best to avoid these things when there's no proof.

[keepdoing]

Sidechains are open source, LN is open source and free to use. What's your point here exactly?

Now I am really confused.  What is "LN"?  Are you referring to Lightening Network by Blockstream?

Heck, that is pretty much Vaporware.  i.e.... an unproven marketing concept that isn't yet backed up by actual working code.

I for one wouldn't touch Lightening Network with a 10 foot pole.  Its toxic.  My guess is that the Blockstream Investors are feeling pretty stupid and pissed off right now.   They probably had no idea they were backing incompetents.

[novgod]

-snip-

HI KEEP YOU ARE VERY INTEGRITY AND MUCH WISDOM

WHY THANK YOU MIKE IT'S SO NICE TO MEET YOU HERE, YOU ARE HIGHLY INTELLIGENCE

You're not even trying anymore which makes me wonder if you've become desperate? You're just working against Core and in favor of Classic. Usually most of the stuff that you've written is false.

Moronic memes won't make your case any better.  Blockstream is trying to own Bitcoin by calling everything else an 'Alt'.  Large blocks are needed, necessary and prudent.  Blockstream is a private company trying to cripple blockchain so people will buy their solution.  They've got to be stopped!

I agree completely. How could bitcoin community work to stop this corporate rats?

Let's start discussing concrete plans or we'll just be dragged down the toilet.

[keepdoing]

....What is "LN"?  Are you referring to Lightening Network by Blockstream?

Heck, that is pretty much Vaporware.  i.e.... an unproven marketing concept that isn't yet backed up by actual working code.

I for one wouldn't touch Lightening Network with a 10 foot pole.  Its toxic.  My guess is that the Blockstream Investors are feeling pretty stupid and pissed off right now.   They probably had no idea they were backing incompetents.

And this brings up another interesting point that I think all the Blockstream Investors are probably wondering about.  I know I would be.

I'd wonder how my monies were being spent.  I mean... it seems to me that much of Blockstream time is spent playing social manipulation games, when they should have their noses buried in their Lightening Network codework.

Thats the real problem.... blockstream appears to have chosen a lazy development path of "Cripple Bitcoin and we win by default".... instead of doing hat everyone else does.... work hard to improve your own code,and try and win marketshare by honest means.

If it was my investment money, I would be looking at my agreement to see what sort of Audit of the books I could be entitled to, and if I had grounds for legal action to recover my investment.

[thejaytiesto]

You're not even trying anymore which makes me wonder if you've become desperate? You're just working against Core and in favor of Classic. Usually most of the stuff that you've written is false.

Lauda, you are such a lying, misdirecting shill.  I am hardly desperate....  I moved most of my bitcoins into Ethereum.  I'm up 30%.  If you and the rest of the idiots sitting around in denial about Core's demise continue to make it clear you are willing to kill Bitcoin if you can't have your way.... then I'll move the rest of my coins into Ethereum.  And I WILL make money.  Now, after you guys are gone, and Classic Devs back in charge.... I will come back into bitcoin.

But the FUD, misdirection, lies, and sabotage that is being played by Core/Blockstream supporters is getting dangerous, and I thnk this Fork may turn out very badly for people not careful.  What bothers me is that while MOST people may not step on any financial disater mines during hte Fork..... I think Core Supporters will stop at nothing, including spreading lies that may drive some hapless uninformed people to exchange coins that render them useless on the Core chain.  

Innocents will lose money.... because of people like you.

Core/Blockstream is crazy to think bitcoiners are just going to sit around while they bend the direction of the network into their own little private project.  No way.  Bitcoiners do not like privatization.  

Core devs are conflicted.  It is a conflict of interest that they impose a 1MB blocksize which clearly serves no purpose other than to drive need for their bullshit sidechain solutions which are going to generate money for their company.  

Core = Blockstream.  We need Classic today and 8MB blocks to render Core/Blockstream irrelevant.  How did Maxwell get so much power to stop the masses anyway?  This 'Veto' power is dangerous.

Yeah, let's make the blockchain grow 8 times faster guaranteeing people can't run nodes and the process of node centralization starts and we end up with both centralized nodes and centralizing mining.

Let's also "make irrelevant" Blockstream which is the only way to scale Bitcoin to global levels without the massive centralization that raising the blocksize to retarded/Toomin/XT levels would bring us to.

You have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. Please go study a bit and then come back with some sound arguments.

Why is Gmaxwell so relevant? Maybe because he is one of the top contributors to Bitcoin and has done more useful things than you'll ever do in your life.

By the way, Gmaxwell has been defending his same arguments way before Blockstream was founded, so your tinfoil-hat type of arguments about the company are laughable.

[keepdoing]

Yeah, let's make the blockchain grow 8 times faster guaranteeing people can't run nodes and the process of node centralization starts and we end up with both centralized nodes and centralizing mining.

Let's also "make irrelevant" Blockstream which is the only way to scale Bitcoin to global levels without the massive centralization that raising the blocksize to retarded/Toomin/XT levels would bring us to.

INTERPRETATION OF THE ABOVE:::::

"Yeah, lets spread FUD, untruths, and throw an epic Rage Attempt to Destroy Bitcoin party on our way out the door!"

[thejaytiesto]

You're not even trying anymore which makes me wonder if you've become desperate? You're just working against Core and in favor of Classic. Usually most of the stuff that you've written is false.

Lauda, you are such a lying, misdirecting shill.  I am hardly desperate....  I moved most of my bitcoins into Ethereum.  I'm up 30%.  If you and the rest of the idiots sitting around in denial about Core's demise continue to make it clear you are willing to kill Bitcoin if you can't have your way.... then I'll move the rest of my coins into Ethereum.  And I WILL make money.  Now, after you guys are gone, and Classic Devs back in charge.... I will come back into bitcoin.

But the FUD, misdirection, lies, and sabotage that is being played by Core/Blockstream supporters is getting dangerous, and I thnk this Fork may turn out very badly for people not careful.  What bothers me is that while MOST people may not step on any financial disater mines during hte Fork..... I think Core Supporters will stop at nothing, including spreading lies that may drive some hapless uninformed people to exchange coins that render them useless on the Core chain.  

Innocents will lose money.... because of people like you.

The Classic devs are a bunch of morons that wouldn't be able to run the full node unless they keep relying on Core devs keeping it up to date, what happens when Core devs get fed up?, that's why no one with a functional brain is supporting Classic.
Who has come up with SegWit? Core devs. Who has come up with Confidential Transactions? Core devs. Who has come up with the whole sidechains thing? Core devs. Who has come up with Libsecp256k1? Core devs. Who has come up with OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY? Core devs. I can continue all day.
What the fuck have Classic devs done? Exactly. When they can prove to do something of substance, they will be worth a contender to run the full node. Until then, anyone willing to put those guys in charge deserves bankruptcy.
You can keep FUDing with your low IQ replies while Core devs keep making great things.