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Author Topic: anyone else discouraged?  (Read 3360 times)
rtcw
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June 08, 2011, 12:45:07 PM
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i believe in the concept of bitcoin,just dont see how this could work on pure trust alone. i bought one BTC a week ago an there already over 26USD?! just wondering who else is apprehensive about this.

ive only got one as i dont have the money to buy, but all in all i do hope this works out to replace the digital FRN's


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benjamindees
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June 08, 2011, 12:49:33 PM
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What makes you think Bitcoin has anything to do with trust?

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
rtcw
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June 08, 2011, 12:59:52 PM
 #3

because "i" or "we" have to trust that theyll have value based on people believing in the system. i get that they are hard to attain and have read both sides of the debate. i know its a revolutionary concept which i respect, an hope it works... im just on the fence atm.

 id like to get started, as i only have one but im concerned about the fast move to 29USD
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June 08, 2011, 03:25:45 PM
 #4

What benjamindees probably meant was:

Quote
The bitcoin system is based on public/private key encryption in addition to public transaction record in the blockchain. There is no need to trust another user, because the system takes care of security for you, preventing any kind of 'chargeback' or 'reversal' scenario by its design.

Anyway, I say follow the trend until the trend tells you otherwise. To predict is foolish, to be on the right side is divine.

Do what you can, there are millions of people out there who aren't informed as you are now. You still have time.


fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
tymothy
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June 08, 2011, 03:33:53 PM
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millions of people out there who aren't informed as you are now.

billions
SgtSpike
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June 08, 2011, 03:35:19 PM
 #6

$29/$31.50 is nothing compared to what it will be in a few months.  Seriously, the word on bitcoin is JUST starting to spread through the major news sources.  It's going for a ride, and it won't be stopping for a long time yet.
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June 08, 2011, 03:39:55 PM
 #7

Actually I mostly agree with rtcw's response.  You don't have to trust in the system.  You don't even have to trust that others will believe in it to give it value, because Bitcoin actually has inherent value.  But you do have to trust that enough people will use it, in order to maintain it's value.

Bitcoin is like a house.  It can protect your possessions from theft.  Unfortunately it's the biggest house ever constructed.  And it requires maintenance.  If lots of people want to use it, it will be very cheap to maintain.  If only a few people want to use it, it will be impossible to maintain, and the thieves will break in.

From what I have seen over the past several months, it seems that a lot of people want to use it.  More than I would have imagined, actually.

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rtcw
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June 08, 2011, 03:43:13 PM
 #8

yeah i get it, just wish i was able to get more.  buy the time i get paid next week they could be out of my price range as i buy 10 oz of silver bi-weekly.
tymothy
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June 08, 2011, 04:08:30 PM
 #9

yeah i get it, just wish i was able to get more.  buy the time i get paid next week they could be out of my price range as i buy 10 oz of silver bi-weekly.

...you can always buy fractions of a coin.
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June 08, 2011, 04:34:40 PM
 #10

well, I can tell you that many people are pissed off about the ability to get money into the system, mtgox or any other exchange.
dwolla sucks, liberty reserve sucks, bank wire sucks, it all blows, the private markets are lurky and murky . Ive been trying to buy since 9 and have witnessed a 20 point move. That is aggravating to say the least, considering its all upon the middlemen, which is the whole point of establishing BTC, get rid of these controlling middlemen. 

The craziness, all goes back to what I said earlier, that people here brushed off or didnt understand.  The float on BTC is so small  that the volitility on BTC will be insane. and it is.  Programmers are not economists and I dont feel that the community understands the dynamics of markets, float, volume etc. Ive been a trader in various professional markets for 16 years, and I tell you now, the insanity is just beginning because of the very limited float. MTGox is in over their head, and will become more so as things proceed. My guess is that the mob in russia is attempting to corner the market and with this float it wont be that hard. There are so many variables here, that the community doesnt understand, but I think the education is starting.   
rezin777
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June 08, 2011, 04:36:47 PM
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well, I can tell you that many people are pissed off about the ability to get money into the system, mtgox or any other exchange.
dwolla sucks, liberty reserve sucks, bank wire sucks, it all blows, the private markets are lurky and murky . Ive been trying to buy since 9 and have witnessed a 20 point move. That is aggravating to say the least, considering its all upon the middlemen, which is the whole point of establishing BTC, get rid of these controlling middlemen. 

The craziness, all goes back to what I said earlier, that people here brushed off or didnt understand.  The float on BTC is so small  that the volitility on BTC will be insane. and it is.  Programmers are not economists and I dont feel that the community understands the dynamics of markets, float, volume etc. Ive been a trader in various professional markets for 16 years, and I tell you now, the insanity is just beginning because of the very limited float. MTGox is in over their head, and will become more so as things proceed. My guess is that the mob in russia is attempting to corner the market and with this float it wont be that hard. There are so many variables here, that the community doesnt understand, but I think the education is starting.   

It seems like there is a huge opportunity for someone to provide an easy way to buy Bitcoins and make a ton of money from it.
triforcelink
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June 08, 2011, 04:40:09 PM
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Quote
millions of people out there who aren't informed as you are now.

billions
+ over 9000

rtcw
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June 08, 2011, 04:51:08 PM
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well, I can tell you that many people are pissed off about the ability to get money into the system, mtgox or any other exchange.
dwolla sucks, liberty reserve sucks, bank wire sucks, it all blows, the private markets are lurky and murky . Ive been trying to buy since 9 and have witnessed a 20 point move. That is aggravating to say the least, considering its all upon the middlemen, which is the whole point of establishing BTC, get rid of these controlling middlemen. 

The craziness, all goes back to what I said earlier, that people here brushed off or didnt understand.  The float on BTC is so small  that the volitility on BTC will be insane. and it is.  Programmers are not economists and I dont feel that the community understands the dynamics of markets, float, volume etc. Ive been a trader in various professional markets for 16 years, and I tell you now, the insanity is just beginning because of the very limited float. MTGox is in over their head, and will become more so as things proceed. My guess is that the mob in russia is attempting to corner the market and with this float it wont be that hard. There are so many variables here, that the community doesnt understand, but I think the education is starting.   

It seems like there is a huge opportunity for someone to provide an easy way to buy Bitcoins and make a ton of money from it.


eah, as a student of austrian economics for the last 4 years this goes against the number one principle, an thats is its backed by nothing by trust. im just going to arbitras this to get more silver. ive gotten 20btc this morning @23 an hope to gain 40 oz out of it. a lot of these guys on here dont understand economics. they just say its rare, its valuable. which is true if people want it, an they do...


i hooked up with a guy on ebay to sell me some via paypal as debt owed btw. ill send you his email if youd like to grab some in that method.
rezin777
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June 08, 2011, 05:01:47 PM
 #14

eah, as a student of austrian economics for the last 4 years this goes against the number one principle, an thats is its backed by nothing by trust. im just going to arbitras this to get more silver. ive gotten 20btc this morning @23 an hope to gain 40 oz out of it. a lot of these guys on here dont understand economics. they just say its rare, its valuable. which is true if people want it, an they do...

You could say the same about silver and gold. Value is subjective. Do you buy gold because of it's industrial properties or because it is a store of value that you trust other people will recognize? Same for silver.
rtcw
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June 08, 2011, 05:18:49 PM
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eah, as a student of austrian economics for the last 4 years this goes against the number one principle, an thats is its backed by nothing by trust. im just going to arbitras this to get more silver. ive gotten 20btc this morning @23 an hope to gain 40 oz out of it. a lot of these guys on here dont understand economics. they just say its rare, its valuable. which is true if people want it, an they do...

You could say the same about silver and gold. Value is subjective. Do you buy gold because of it's industrial properties or because it is a store of value that you trust other people will recognize? Same for silver.

 i buy gold and silver cause they cant be printed or created out of thin air. i believe in the silver story as a protection of wealth, im not a day trader or an investor an have no interest in doing them.value is subjective to the individual yes.but what do you think is going to happened if china dont "trust" our dollar and dump 3 trillion into the market?? again, its all about trust..

 until interest rates out pace the real inflation ill be buying silver an gold.
rezin777
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June 08, 2011, 05:34:23 PM
 #16

i buy gold and silver cause they cant be printed or created out of thin air. i believe in the silver story as a protection of wealth, im not a day trader or an investor an have no interest in doing them.value is subjective to the individual yes.but what do you think is going to happened if china dont "trust" our dollar and dump 3 trillion into the market?? again, its all about trust..

 until interest rates out pace the real inflation ill be buying silver an gold.

You can buy Bitcoins for the same reason. Yes, they are inflating now, but it's a known rate and it will end. As far as trusting the dollar, what does that have to do with Bitcoin?
ninjacob
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June 08, 2011, 05:54:50 PM
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I also consider myself an Austrian. And as weird as it seems, I think the austrian economists don't realize that bitcoin has all the criteria they talk about for sound money. Bitcoin is austrian but the austrians don't see it yet!

You would agree that everything Murray Rothbard says in "What has government done to our money?" applies to Bitcoin right? EXCEPT for the main thing he always says. A currency must have intrinsic value before becoming a currency.

I think bitcoin DOES have intrinsic value. What is throwing them off is the whole digital part. Maybe it's because we are obsessed with commodities like gold and silver.

But look at it this way. A written paper letter is something physical. It surves it's purpose (to tell Grand-ma happy b-day or whatever). It has real value.
A e-mail serves the same purpose. E-mail has real value. But it's digital!
I think it's just that our brains havent evolved with computers (no shit haha) and it feels strange to say that a binary code can be valuable.

I order for the austrian critics of bitcoin to be right in regards to that criteria not being met to qualify as sound money, they would have to make the case that an e-mail has no value.
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June 08, 2011, 06:06:56 PM
 #18

rtcw,

you and I are in the same boat.  I am a holder of bullion and US coin in silver.
Late june will be the time to back up the truck in silver.  I also was trying to
get some ounces out of a BTC trade. Going into the end of the year I think btc and silver will be nuts.
So frustrating that I was trying to buy at 9. No cigar. No silver.
rtcw
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June 08, 2011, 06:08:11 PM
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i buy gold and silver cause they cant be printed or created out of thin air. i believe in the silver story as a protection of wealth, im not a day trader or an investor an have no interest in doing them.value is subjective to the individual yes.but what do you think is going to happened if china dont "trust" our dollar and dump 3 trillion into the market?? again, its all about trust..

 until interest rates out pace the real inflation ill be buying silver an gold.

You can buy Bitcoins for the same reason. Yes, they are inflating now, but it's a known rate and it will end. As far as trusting the dollar, what does that have to do with Bitcoin?

i got a little defensive about silver, my apologies.. but common people like me will have to use USD to buy bitcoins in the short term to medium term. not everyone knows how to build a website or have things to trade for BTC.. as for the relationship for the dollar goes; say china dumps 3 trillion or we print another 1-2 trill, commodities triple in 3-5 months. silver,grain,cotton,oil etc. i dont think people wont have the cash to buy btc or would want to when their worried about food,gas an other bills that you cant atm use to pay for. this whole model depends on new people coming into the market wanting  the generated BTCs.. if this breaks out into interpersonal transactions on the spot, i see it being a good means of currency "IF" easily convertible for day to day goods. seems to me most that are buying now are just tiring to make some fast cash. you guys that got in at .10$-5$ even 15$ are sitting pretty. and should take some profit cause it could all come down at any moment if someone wanted to destroy this model.. im sure MIT and the gov are all over this.
rtcw
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June 08, 2011, 06:21:36 PM
 #20

I also consider myself an Austrian. And as weird as it seems, I think the austrian economists don't realize that bitcoin has all the criteria they talk about for sound money. Bitcoin is austrian but the austrians don't see it yet!

You would agree that everything Murray Rothbard says in "What has government done to our money?" applies to Bitcoin right? EXCEPT for the main thing he always says. A currency must have intrinsic value before becoming a currency.

I think bitcoin DOES have intrinsic value. What is throwing them off is the whole digital part. Maybe it's because we are obsessed with commodities like gold and silver.

But look at it this way. A written paper letter is something physical. It surves it's purpose (to tell Grand-ma happy b-day or whatever). It has real value.
A e-mail serves the same purpose. E-mail has real value. But it's digital!
I think it's just that our brains havent evolved with computers (no shit haha) and it feels strange to say that a binary code can be valuable.

I order for the austrian critics of bitcoin to be right in regards to that criteria not being met to qualify as sound money, they would have to make the case that an e-mail has no value.

 its a double edged sword man. no gov control or back by trust.  i would argue that an email to grandma has no value as cause cant trade it for a bitcoin, or silver. an individual would have to see the value in said email and be willing to pay you upon an agreed price. i dont know of anyone that is buying emails between two individuals. unless there are of some pictures of naked chicks or grandmas secret chicken soup recipe.
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