(Resolved) Bitcoin/Bitinstant/Zipzap discrepancy in deposits

[sisyphus]

Firstly, let me say YES I did create an account just to post this thread. Maybe I will post in other areas or provide feedback, or maybe I'll go away when the problem gets solved.  Either way, this has been an unecessarily frustrating situation.

Before we get to it, if there is any other way/service to get Bitcoins (aside from Bitinstant, Zip Zap, or Blockchain) PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOMEONE ADVISE ME.  This is the last time I will be using this current configuration.  I'd be willing to pay a couple extra % points for better service.

I deposited $800 USD via two separate cash deposits at a Moneygram merchant 48+ hours ago.  It took about 3 hours to recieve the first Bitcoins, however only $170 posted to wallet.  It took another 10 hours for more Bitcoins to post, bringing the total to $663.  Where are the rest of my Bitcoins?

I provided Charlie with my Zip Zap account info and Moneygram info, and he has been prompt in responding however he forwards/refers my case to another person named Ira.  Ira has sent me the Blockchain ledger info regarding my two deposit transactions, BOTH of which are significantly less than my actual account deposits:  $252.72 (should be $300), and $421.20 (should be $500).

Ira says, "Note that the addresses don't match the one in your email below. Still, you provided these addresses, and we completed the transactions as requested. Is it possible they belong to another wallet of yours?"  

Now here is my theory:  the total amount missing is about $136.  Certianly there isn't a service fee of 17%.  The only explanation is my deposits were sent to someone else's wallet, they took a small amount of money from each transaction, then forwarded the remaining balance to my wallet.

Fraud?
 

[1714671383]

1714671383

[1714671383]

1714671383

[1714671383]

1714671383

[1714671383]

1714671383

[sisyphus]

Additional info:

I have also left several voicemails with Zip Zap, as I believe this is where the problem lies.  If Bitinstant processed the transaction as received from Zip Zap, then someone at that company is defrauding consumers.  It might be as innocent as an employee funnelling small amounts of money from each transaction and hoping new customers won't notice.

However 17% is a lot of money. Did they think I wouldn't follow up?

[Tesla71]

I think first you should provide the adresses involved in the transactions

[sisyphus]

I think first you should provide the adresses involved in the transactions

Read my post closely:

I provided Charlie with my Zip Zap account info and Moneygram info...

Ira says, "Note that the addresses don't match the one in your email below.

They have been provided all the requisite info. to resolve it.

[Foxpup]

Certianly there isn't a service fee of 17%.

Your certainty is misplaced. BitInstant charges a fee of 3.99% (which is clearly indicated on the site), in addition to the fee charged by MoneyGram, which varies but I think it's something like 8%, so that's about 12% lost in fees altogether. The rest was probably lost in exchange rate fluctuations: remember, bitcoins and dollars are completely different currencies, and the exchange rate fluctuates constantly. The bitcoin/US dollar exchange rate has dropped slightly over the last couple of days, so the bitcoins you purchased are currently worth slightly less than what you paid for them. But tomorrow they might be worth more. Or less. Nobody knows. That's the risk you take when dealing with other currencies.

I really don't think any fraud has occurred, I think you just misunderstood how the fees and exchange rates work.

[sisyphus]

fee charged by MoneyGram, which varies but I think it's something like 8%

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.  I understood and had no problem with the 3.99% Bitinstant fee.  I paid an additional $3.95 for each deposit as a fee to Zip Zap as well.

I have no clue what you're reffering to as far as the 8% Money Gram "fee," as I've been using their service for over a decade.  Usually they charge $4.95 for an Express Payment.  Can you cite source material for that?

[Foxpup]

I have no clue what you're reffering to as far as the 8% Money Gram "fee," as I've been using their service for over a decade.  Usually they charge $4.95 for an Express Payment.  Can you cite source material for that?

I've never used them, but according to their online cost estimator, they charge a lot more than $4.95.

[sisyphus]

I didn't realize how much of a scam bitcoin exchanges really are:

http://nerdr.com/bitcoin-exchange-scam-bitcoins-are-worthless/

Quote from an exchange operator at the above link:  
"I change the Bitcoin price by hand nearly everyday...  They are greedy.  I don’t care if I cheated them.  I wonder is it bad?  I have a nice life now and will marry soon.  We will buy our first house soon with my Bitcoin money the greedy have gave me."

So in addition to the fact that some random person randomly decides exchange rates based on random factors (maybe he's happy and got sex that day, or maybe bad tacos gave him the shits), there are also an exorbant amount of fees tacked on by the exchangers as well as the merchants required to make deposits with the exchanges.

Thanks, Charlie, Ira, and Rachel.  Or, actually, you should be thanking us.

*Newb realization*  

[lassdas]

Everyone is free to offer you bitcoins at whatever price they like, it's up to you to take their offer or decline it.

To assume that every exchanger is a scammer, just because some greedy scumbags admit they are, is just wrong.
If you fell for a scammer, i feel sorry for you, but you can't blame anyone else for it but yourself, you should have looked for better offers.
If you don't like BitInstant for whatever reason, just use some other service, trade on markets (like MtGox) yourself, look for a face-2-face-trader on localbitcoins to meet up with in person, or whatever.

There's thousands of different ways to get bitcoins and a lots of honest exchangers.

[Stephen Gornick]

"I change the Bitcoin price by hand nearly everyday...  

Not sure what that is about, but the exchange rate that BitInstant uses when you order coins to an address is the current rate from Mt. Gox.

Ira says, "Note that the addresses don't match the one in your email below. Still, you provided these addresses, and we completed the transactions as requested. Is it possible they belong to another wallet of yours?"  

Ok, so you are mixing terms.  If you chose to send the funds to an exchange, then you are sent dollars.   And if you are sending to an exchange you would send to an account number, not to a Bitcoin address.

So let's back up a step.

What did you use to place the order.  BitInstant.com website, or did you use something like the "Cash" purchase method from Blockchain.info.

The deposit slip will tell you how much you are to deposit and how much (dollars) that ZipZap will send.

Did you receive bitcoins or dollars?   And where did you receive these funds?

Whiere did you make this deposit?  (i.e., was this in the U.S.?)

[sisyphus]

Foxpup you were right.

$39 to send $500
$25 to send $300

Bitinstant + private tumbler = 5.04% = $40
Lost/pilfered in Bitcoin exchange = $32

Total fee on $800 = $136 or 18%

I think that's also what the IMF charges the US to launder their heroin money  

[mylove942006]

that's because you did not notice .....Each transaction must have cost to maintain the home webs and banks.

[Stephen Gornick]

Before we get to it, if there is any other way/service to get Bitcoins (aside from Bitinstant, Zip Zap, or Blockchain)

To answer that question, the following factors are relevant:

 - Where are you located (country)?
 - How much are you looking to buy? [Edit: You mention the $800 range]
 - What payment methods do you have available or prefer (e.g., cash, bank transfer, etc.)
 - How soon do you need your bitcoins?
 - Is privacy important?

In the U.S.:

BitMe.com accepts cash deposit at Chase.
 - http://www.BitMe.com

Bank transfers provide the least expensive method, but they aren't necessarily the quickest.

Coinbase, available in the U.S. only, lets you instantly verify your bank account and order bitcoins, but you can't actually withdraw those coins until the bank transfer clears a couple days later. They charge just a 1% fee for buying coins.  The limitation for you might be the $100 per-day limit (the plain to raise that at some point):
 - http://www.Coinbase.com

Dwolla is another method to move funds cheaply from your bank to an exchange, as their fee is just $0.25 per transfer. Then from Dwolla you can purchase coins from:

 - http://www.MtGox.com
 - http://CampBX.com
 - http://BitInstant.com <-- To move Dwolla funds to any of the exchanges they support.

There are cash deposit methods available in about two dozen countries including U.S., Canada (CA VirtEx), Australia (Spend Bitcoins), New Zealand (bitNZ), many in South Asia (ECurrencyZone), Russia (BTC-E, BitInstnat), and a dozen countries that BitInstant now supports.
 - http://www.BitInstant.com

A local trade with cash might be your quickest path:
 - http://www.LocalBitcoins.com

There are a number of options:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Buying_bitcoins

[sisyphus]

What did you use to place the order.
The deposit slip will tell you how much you are to deposit and how much (dollars) that ZipZap will send.

Did you receive bitcoins or dollars?   And where did you receive these funds?

Whiere did you make this deposit?  (i.e., was this in the U.S.?)

I used cash deposit via Blockchain.  I received Bitcoins via Blockchain wallet.  I made the deposit in the US and Zip Zap is a US company.

So essentially, I'm paying out the ass for anonymity?

I don't save the Zip Zap slips, but they both had the full amounts to be paid ($300 & $500) plus an additional $3.95 each per their company fee.

[Foxpup]

I didn't realize how much of a scam bitcoin exchanges really are:

http://nerdr.com/bitcoin-exchange-scam-bitcoins-are-worthless/

Quote from an exchange operator at the above link:  
"I change the Bitcoin price by hand nearly everyday...  They are greedy.  I don’t care if I cheated them.  I wonder is it bad?  I have a nice life now and will marry soon.  We will buy our first house soon with my Bitcoin money the greedy have gave me."

I don't know what this is about either, but it's not even a scam. Bitcoin sellers are free to charge whatever price they want, just as if they were selling anything else. That's why you might see a pair of shoes on sale at one store for $80, but another store is selling the same shoes for $70. That doesn't mean the first store is trying to scam you, that's just the price they decided on. If people think the price (of shoes or bitcoins) is too high at one place, they'll just buy them somewhere else. So sellers will always offer the lowest price that they can while still making a profit, and anyone who charges excessively high prices will quickly go out of business. That's how competition works.

[sisyphus]

 - Where are you located (country)?
  - What payment methods do you have available or prefer (e.g., cash, bank transfer, etc.)
 - How soon do you need your bitcoins?
 - Is privacy important?

Thanks gods for you and the info in the rest of your post. It will be very useful.  I'm noticing most of the guidance usually comes from experience, as the material seems very technically-oriented and I about have a stroke trying to decipher the exchange-specific jargon.

I'm in the US, and I would rather use cash. Total anonymity is key, and I now understand that comes with the heftiest fee. That being said, I'm not in a huge rush to get Bitcoins so 1-2 days turnaround wouldn't be bad.  I just assumed "Bitinstant" meant instant, so I was rushing the support team.

I suppose the only cheaper way would be to use Bitme.com and a cash deposit at Chase Bank.  Do you know if they require ID to make the deposit?  What is the turnaround time there?

[Stephen Gornick]

I suppose the only cheaper way would be to use Bitme.com and a cash deposit at Chase Bank.  

It can fluctuate.  Lately they've been getting a decent supply of coins so like right now you could buy close to $1,000 worth of coins and not pay much over what you pay at Mt. Gox ($13.50).   When there are aggressive larger buyers, the liquidity isn't that great and it can jump to 6% or more over spot.

Do you know if they require ID to make the deposit?

Nope.  Just deposit cash into the account number provided -- the exact amount from the deposit slip though.

What is the turnaround time there?

I'm remembering something to the effect of hours [max, if deposited early in the day], to following morning.  I don't see much in the way of complaints waiting on funds to be credited, except where the person deposited the wrong amount.

[sisyphus]

Sincere thanks to Foxpup and Stephen for your help.