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Author Topic: Why you will never get an ASIC miner, for real.  (Read 6016 times)
Ltcfaucet (OP)
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January 11, 2013, 10:14:32 AM
 #1

You will never have a commercially made ASIC miner for SHA encryption!

Until every organisation on the internet and off the internet changes the way they encrypt their information, you are out of luck.

Reason being:
This ASIC hardware could too easily be reverse engineered to decrypt SHA. And with it's small size and power consumption they could be ran almost anywhere barely undetected constantly attacking SHA at an incredible rate. Essentially these devices would put too much power into public hands.

If you are going to continue to pursue this Bitcoin mining game you better load up on FPGAs and GPUs!

Now someone tell me I am wrong.

Thanks.
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greyhawk
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January 11, 2013, 10:15:34 AM
 #2

You are wrong.
Ltcfaucet (OP)
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January 11, 2013, 10:16:29 AM
 #3

You are wrong.

Please tell me more!
greyhawk
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January 11, 2013, 10:18:04 AM
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organofcorti
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January 11, 2013, 10:19:04 AM
 #5


You are more wrong. Quite.

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Ltcfaucet (OP)
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January 11, 2013, 10:22:04 AM
 #6

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Exactly.

Estimated how much money did BFL receive in pre-orders?

You're telling me with that kind of cash on hand you can't get a piece of hardware manufactured?

Why are there other companies in the same boat? One which is now selling-out.

The U.S. Government is who is preventing ASIC I can almost guarantee you.

And as previously stated on this forum and many other places, having that ability is quite literally like having a money printer, if it existed they would never let it go!

I sure as fuck wouldn't tell anyone if I found a way to generate thousands of dollars in bitcoins per day, just being honest.

So please tell me I'm wrong, with a little emphasis.
greyhawk
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January 11, 2013, 10:23:54 AM
 #7

You are wrong.


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Ltcfaucet (OP)
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January 11, 2013, 10:25:41 AM
 #8

You are wrong.


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Explain!

How am I wrong?
organofcorti
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January 11, 2013, 10:29:26 AM
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Now someone tell me I am wrong.

Thanks.

You are wrong.


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Ltcfaucet, please note your request has been fulfilled by  Greyhawk's Request Fullfillment Service.

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January 11, 2013, 10:29:43 AM
 #10

You are wrong.


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Ltcfaucet (OP)
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January 11, 2013, 10:32:30 AM
 #11

You are wrong.


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January 11, 2013, 10:42:41 AM
 #12

You are right untill one appears doing 60gh@60watts but untill then it,s going to be an endless discussion over and over... people will try to convince u ur wrong ...its like god vs darwin

Still buying gpu,s an are making btc over and over day in day out.

I feel sorry for people who pre orderd the quick cash machines they will find out the hard way...first they thought they could make roi before halvingday hoping to get there hands on the first batches ..whaaaa
 look at the sitiuation now..  Nothing in life comes for free.. Nothing..

I do hoop for the community and the trust there will be some sort of conversion from gpu fpga to better and efficient devices.. Some day before the next halvingday
If Avalon doesn,t deliver this month with there nice words and answers it for sure can be called an SCAM

Cheerzzz...

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Atruk
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January 11, 2013, 12:26:37 PM
 #13

You will never have a commercially made ASIC miner for SHA encryption!

Until every organisation on the internet and off the internet changes the way they encrypt their information, you are out of luck.

Reason being:
This ASIC hardware could too easily be reverse engineered to decrypt SHA. And with it's small size and power consumption they could be ran almost anywhere barely undetected constantly attacking SHA at an incredible rate. Essentially these devices would put too much power into public hands.

If you are going to continue to pursue this Bitcoin mining game you better load up on FPGAs and GPUs!

Now someone tell me I am wrong.

Thanks.

SHA isn't encryption. It is a one way hash function. It obscures an input, but on the level you are arguing encryption might as well be the term you want to use.

The thing about SHA as a one way has function is that unless the math is broken by anything less than a brute force attack, it is still "intact". Yes ASICs might make this easier, but...

  • As single purpose chips this are aimed at SHA-256
  • Moving existing applications from SHA-256 to SHA-512 fixes this, probably (if the asics as delivered could perform either calculation instead of only one, the engineering was likely suboptimal because they probably could have squeezed out still more performance on the same die.)

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January 11, 2013, 02:36:09 PM
 #14

You will never have a commercially made ASIC miner for SHA encryption!

Until every organisation on the internet and off the internet changes the way they encrypt their information, you are out of luck.

Reason being:
This ASIC hardware could too easily be reverse engineered to decrypt SHA. And with it's small size and power consumption they could be ran almost anywhere barely undetected constantly attacking SHA at an incredible rate. Essentially these devices would put too much power into public hands.

If you are going to continue to pursue this Bitcoin mining game you better load up on FPGAs and GPUs!

Now someone tell me I am wrong.

Thanks.
HAHHAHAHAHAHAAH That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  You have NO idea what you're talking about.  SHA is a HASH algorithm - it's not for ENCRYPTION.  Go read something please.

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January 12, 2013, 02:53:35 AM
 #15

I'm beginning to think you're right, there is always some reason for shipment delay every month, and what keeps you in there is the threat of losing your place in the pre-order queue.

I could take pre-order money and buy mountains of FPGAs with it.

When eventually the sucker I mean customer wakes up and asks for their money back I can give it to them.

Off course nobody was ripped off, they got their money back, so I got a free loan, and maybe their currency depreciated a little over time, but all that matters is they got refunded.

Arbitrage scams work best when nobody feels like a victim. Wink
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January 12, 2013, 03:35:07 AM
 #16

You will never have a commercially made ASIC miner for SHA encryption!

Until every organisation on the internet and off the internet changes the way they encrypt their information, you are out of luck.

Reason being:
This ASIC hardware could too easily be reverse engineered to decrypt SHA. And with it's small size and power consumption they could be ran almost anywhere barely undetected constantly attacking SHA at an incredible rate. Essentially these devices would put too much power into public hands.

If you are going to continue to pursue this Bitcoin mining game you better load up on FPGAs and GPUs!

Now someone tell me I am wrong.

Thanks.


You are an idiot....
1. You are a dyed in the wool troll... trolls have no understanding of technology.
2. You cannot 'decrypt a hash' , it would be like trying to see the contents of a black hole.
3. An ASIC is just that.... APPLICATION SPECIFIC INTEGRATED CIRCUIT.... it would be like buying a Skoda and thinking that putting a new set of windscreen wipers in it will make it a Rolls Royce.


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January 12, 2013, 05:15:02 AM
 #17

You are an idiot....
1. You are a dyed in the wool troll... trolls have no understanding of technology.
2. You cannot 'decrypt a hash' , it would be like trying to see the contents of a black hole.
3. An ASIC is just that.... APPLICATION SPECIFIC INTEGRATED CIRCUIT.... it would be like buying a Skoda and thinking that putting a new set of windscreen wipers in it will make it a Rolls Royce.

You ever see the Top Gear when they compared a Rolls Royce to a Mercedes to a "Bentley" ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyH-351Z_-0&t=1m17s Give it like a minute or so.

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witherworth
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January 12, 2013, 07:35:40 AM
 #18

You will never have a commercially made ASIC miner for SHA encryption!

Until every organisation on the internet and off the internet changes the way they encrypt their information, you are out of luck.

Reason being:
This ASIC hardware could too easily be reverse engineered to decrypt SHA. And with it's small size and power consumption they could be ran almost anywhere barely undetected constantly attacking SHA at an incredible rate. Essentially these devices would put too much power into public hands.

If you are going to continue to pursue this Bitcoin mining game you better load up on FPGAs and GPUs!

Now someone tell me I am wrong.

Thanks.

Let's put bitcoin aside, and focus completely on security here, since you've made that a serious concern. Here's the thing with security, it's exponentially more difficult to break, for every small difficulty increase in encrypting. This means it'll always be much easier to increase difficulty, than it will to break the harder difficulty. As technology advances and we get fast machines to break 256  bit encryption, 512 comes out, and after some time, we can then break 512, but it's already been upgraded to 1024, and so on.

Let's look at some numbers just to check this out:
http://www.cryptopp.com/benchmarks.html

Using the first algorithm type, let's assume our arbitrary encryption uses 17.2 cycles per byte of the key, for some arbitrary length data (making a lot of assumptions, but they're made fairly).
So, our 8-bit cypher takes 17.2 CPU cycles to encrypt. With 8-bit security, there are 256 possible outcomes (2^8). All outcomes can be found in 4403.2 cycles (256*17.2). I'm going to go crazy here and assume absolutely no collisions for these examples. In reality, however, you may need to encrypt/hash 500+ different items to cover all 256 possibilities, or you may never find all 256, but for these examples, we'll assume no collisions, and everything plays nice.

Now, let's assume we get some fancy new computers available, and now we need to upgrade our security. Let's use 16-bit encryption. That'll take 34.4 cycles to encrypt (2*17.2), giving us 65536 combinations possible. That'll take 1.127 million cycles to calculate all possible values. With a 3GHz processor (3 billion cycles per second), you're still talking about 1/1000 of a second to calculate all possible values.

Let's up our security to 24-bit. Encryption = 51.6 cycles. 16.8m possibilities. 288m cycles for all possibilities (1/30th of a second).

32-bit security. Encrypt = 68.8 cycles. 4.3 billion possibilities. 73.9 billion cycles for all combinations. 24.62 seconds.

40-bit security. Encrypt = 86 cycles. 1.1 trillion possibilities. 18.9 trillion cycles for all combinations. 1 hour, 45 minutes.

48-bit security. Encrypt = 103.2 cycles. 281 trillion possibilities. 4.84 quadrillion cycles for all possibilities. 18 days, 16 hours.

So you see, while it take so incredibly little time to encrypt, the decryption time grows exponentially larger with each little bit of security you add. So, would it be possible for someone to create some ASICs that are designed to break security in use today? Sure, but as soon as that was figured out, everyone would just increase what security strength they use, and all the ASICs become completely useless then. It would be interesting if someone started working on ASICs for 2048 bit encryption of some popular types, then waited for everyone to upgrade (creating rainbow tables or whatever in the meantime), then they could attack several companies at a single time before everyone noes up to 4096. It'd be a bit surprising to jump up in security, only to find it less secure than what everyone was just on.
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January 12, 2013, 12:12:26 PM
 #19

So you see, while it take so incredibly little time to encrypt, the decryption time grows exponentially larger with each little bit of security you add. So, would it be possible for someone to create some ASICs that are designed to break security in use today? Sure, but as soon as that was figured out, everyone would just increase what security strength they use, and all the ASICs become completely useless then. It would be interesting if someone started working on ASICs for 2048 bit encryption of some popular types, then waited for everyone to upgrade (creating rainbow tables or whatever in the meantime), then they could attack several companies at a single time before everyone noes up to 4096. It'd be a bit surprising to jump up in security, only to find it less secure than what everyone was just on.

I'm not quite sure how processing SHA256 hashes using ASICs is "impossible" or that 'they' would never allow it.  I suspect a basic lack of understanding of the underlying technologies by the OP.

Regarding building ASICs specifically for the purposes of decryption, its already been done a very long time ago.  Here is one example I can think of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFF_DES_cracker

The principal designer was Paul Kocher, president of Cryptography Research. Advanced Wireless Technologies built 1856 custom ASIC DES chips (called Deep Crack or AWT-4500), housed on 29 circuit boards of 64 chips each.
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January 12, 2013, 12:42:35 PM
 #20

If you succeed to decrypt SHA you would have invented infinite data compression. Cheesy
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