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BubbleBoy
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June 15, 2011, 09:23:05 PM |
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Point 1 is somewhat of a straw man. If bitcoin will be used for fraud, paying black market wages is probably the least concern. High concerns are drug by mail, plutonium by mail, assassination markets, perfect bribery and blackmail, the pedo equivalent of live erotic chat, etc.
Point 2 can be shown wrong just by looking at the state of the Bitcoin Faucet. It's mostly out of coins yet it's one of the simplest ways to promote bitcoin. Someone with 300.000BTC can send 1000BTC to the faucet, and introduce bitcoin to 50.000 people. Yet no one does.
It's a classic tragedy of the commons in which your individual egotistic choice (keeping the coins) is more profitable than the marginal shared benefits of the altruistic choice (promoting bitcoins using your own money for the benefit of the other hoarders).
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The grue lurks in the darkest places of the earth. Its favorite diet is adventurers, but its insatiable appetite is tempered by its fear of light. No grue has ever been seen by the light of day, and few have survived its fearsome jaws to tell the tale.
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MoonShadow
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June 15, 2011, 10:27:08 PM |
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Please tell me what "enormous risks" the finders of the first blocks took? Which cost them about half a million (current 'difficulty') times less computer power (and energy) than what newcomers have to compete for now?
Lots of time, work, and their own money. Especially for the people who spent the time coding it and setting up the initial networks. Really, the same risks that people like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Eric Schmidt, along with their first few employees, took when they created their software revolutions. You forgot sleepless nights and nausea..... And, of course, the middle of the night runs for pickles and ice cream. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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semarjt
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June 16, 2011, 12:02:07 AM |
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Please tell me what "enormous risks" the finders of the first blocks took? Which cost them about half a million (current 'difficulty') times less computer power (and energy) than what newcomers have to compete for now?
I am really really sick of hearing this, so I will finally speak up. The reason th finders of the first blocks deserve their wealth is simple. If you mined 100,000 bitcoins at the beginning and you are set up to be an 'early adopter billionare' then you had to: - Not sell when the price hit $1 ($100,000!!!)
- Not sell when the price hit $10 ($1,000,000!!)
- And so on..
I dont know about you, but that takes some balls to turn down $100,000, much less a million. Hell, I would have had a hard time not selling at .50, i mean, come on, $50,000? How can you say no? Those guys that still have some original blocks deserve every penny |
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MoonShadow
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June 16, 2011, 12:32:10 AM |
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Oh hey would you look at that, another person with less than 10 posts vehemently defending the bitcoin aristocracy.
Oh, hey would you look at that! Another bitter newbie mad that other people profited off of what he never knew! |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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MoonShadow
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June 16, 2011, 12:51:52 AM |
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God forbid that I believe that BitCoin should be a real currency, not a pyramid scheme.
Do you also rail against the US FRN because it's a pyramid scheme? After all, you don't have as much as Warren Buffet; and that bastard got into the pyramid scheme before you were born! |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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rezin777
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June 16, 2011, 01:03:53 AM |
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God forbid that I believe that BitCoin should be a real currency, not a pyramid scheme.
Like I said last time you suggested this. You are being dishonest when you suggest Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. I don't understand how a voluntary, p2p, decentralized, open source, digital currency project that has a complete and total history of transactions and is openly traded on public exchanges could possibly be misconstrued as a ponzi scheme. Anyone who does is either ignorant or dishonest (perhaps both). I don't care how many people enthusiastically promote it. |
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rezin777
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June 16, 2011, 01:09:12 AM |
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Lots of time and work I could understand, 'their own money' you'd have to explain. Anyhow, doesn't convince me as "enormous risks"...
Lots of time you understand, but that doesn't convince you it's an "enormous risk"? Time may be the most non renewable, limited resource a human being has. Time spent on one thing can never be re-spent on another. My time is the most valuable thing I have. |
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semarjt
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June 16, 2011, 01:26:31 AM |
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Oh hey would you look at that, another person with less than 10 posts vehemently defending the bitcoin aristocracy.
PS - I'm quite sure there has never been anywhere near 100,000 asks at $1 or $10 or any other significant amount of money. So your whole point is bullshit as it would not have been possible anyway.
I don't know what my post count has to do with it. I'm certainly not new to bitcoin. So you are saying 100,000 bitcoins have never been sold? Or just not at one time? If only there was a way to sell bitcoins in chunks at a time.. Looks to me like 26,167 BTC (bout half a million dollars) have been sold in last 24 hours on MtGox alone. This ignores dark pools, otc and the other exchanges. So indeed, it is your argument that is bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if more than one early adopter has realized more than 100k in profits already. |
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rezin777
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June 16, 2011, 02:02:36 AM |
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Like I said last time you suggested this.
You are being dishonest when you suggest Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. I don't understand how a voluntary, p2p, decentralized, open source, digital currency project that has a complete and total history of transactions and is openly traded on public exchanges could possibly be misconstrued as a ponzi scheme. Anyone who does is either ignorant or dishonest (perhaps both). I don't care how many people enthusiastically promote it.
How is this any more dishonest than those with invested interests promoting this as a huge investment opportunity? There is no product except higher difficulty and more deflation on the backs of later investors. Because calling Bitcoin a ponzi scheme is a downright lie. Saying it's a huge investment opportunity could be true (although it would be nice to add that it's extremely high risk). Saying Bitcoins are guaranteed to go up in value is also a lie, and I would call someone out on it if I saw it, the same way I call you out. You still haven't bothered to provide your definition of ponzi scheme. There is no product? I can very quickly send value to someone anywhere in the world with the press of a few buttons! I don't need to open an account. I don't need to register anywhere. I don't need to use a third party. I don't need to give my name. I don't even need the receivers name. This is an amazing amount of freedom for me. The properties of Bitcoin hold tremendous value to me. I could go on. Lots of time you understand, but that doesn't convince you it's an "enormous risk"?
Time may be the most non renewable, limited resource a human being has. Time spent on one thing can never be re-spent on another. My time is the most valuable thing I have.
Yet hundreds of thousands of people work on and freely share open source software with no intention of profiting, let alone profiting into the millions or potentially billions. I guess Satoshi's time is infinitely more valuable than theirs. If people want to share software that is their prerogative. If someone else wants to profit off of theirs, that is their prerogative as well. I'm not going to ignore a fantastic idea because someone might profit from it. |
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MoonShadow
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June 16, 2011, 02:03:17 AM |
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Do you also rail against the US FRN because it's a pyramid scheme? After all, you don't have as much as Warren Buffet; and that bastard got into the pyramid scheme before you were born!
So we're back to BitCoin is a fiat currency? No, we are not. My point was, if Bitcoin is a scam and early adopters are those who got into it in the past two years before you did, what then is the US FRN when the early adopters got into it before you were born? Injustice! We need to gather the troops and have a flash mob protest! Were you not alive for the past two years? Did you not have Internet access? Not know how to use Google? So a few hundred people make a mint because they new about something before you did are scammers, even though you had as much chance as anyone to do the same; while the legacy currency system that you were born into is the metric by which you judge fairness? Are you for real? How much does Senator Schumer pay you anyway, are are you an "unpaid intern"?
What are the advantages again? Oh it's deflationary and not controlled by the guberment!!!!111
Who told you Bitcoin was deflationary? Are you listening to the media trolls? Bitcoin is not deflationary, and will not be before your 100th birthday. Read the documents for yourself, and don't depend on the opinions of strangers on an Internet forum for truth. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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rezin777
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June 16, 2011, 02:14:15 AM |
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You would think these people who hate the idea of Bitcoin so much would do some damn homework and come up with a few of the actual problems facing Bitcoin instead of relying on the tired and played out "it's unfair that people who found this useful tool first might profit from it". It's not hard, there are people who actually like Bitcoin that discuss these problems on a regular basis.
If you know a better way of introducing a new currency with all the advantages of Bitcoin without what you consider the faults of Bitcoin, please do it so the world can have access to such a fantastic creation. Trust me, if it's so much better, people will drop Bitcoin like a bad habit. Hell, it shoudn't be that hard, just build off of the back of Bitcoin.
I'm not going to hold my breath though, and I'll keep using Bitcoin until then.
If you suggest there are no advantages to Bitcoin, then wtf are you doing posting on a Bitcoin forum? Trying to save us? With friends like that, who needs enemies?
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Nescio
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June 16, 2011, 02:21:10 AM |
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God forbid that I believe that BitCoin should be a real currency, not a pyramid scheme.
Like I said last time you suggested this. You are being dishonest when you suggest Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. I don't understand how a voluntary, p2p, decentralized, open source, digital currency project that has a complete and total history of transactions and is openly traded on public exchanges could possibly be misconstrued as a ponzi scheme. If you factor in the more than likely possibility that the people behind the FRS will not stand for losing their money maker (hah, literally) and stomp hard on Bitcoin before it gets out of hand, then it is (logically if not technically) the perfect ponzi scheme. A corollary in that context would be that those cashing out at the right time deserved their payout, because the rest of the suckers didn't see it coming (and it took hard work building it up). Anyway, don't get me wrong, I'm not calling it a ponzi scheme, the technology itself is certainly more than that and more power to the early adopter gazillionaires (unless they abuse it down the line, heh). I desperately hope this takes off and I'm proven utterly wrong. |
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Etlase
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June 16, 2011, 02:49:38 AM |
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No, we are not. My point was, if Bitcoin is a scam and early adopters are those who got into it in the past two years before you did, what then is the US FRN when the early adopters got into it before you were born? Injustice! We need to gather the troops and have a flash mob protest! Were you not alive for the past two years? Did you not have Internet access? Not know how to use Google? So a few hundred people make a mint because they new about something before you did are scammers, even though you had as much chance as anyone to do the same; while the legacy currency system that you were born into is the metric by which you judge fairness? Are you for real?
So because the US FRN did it, it's ok that BitCoin does it. Yet BitCoin is somehow far superior and above reproach. I suppose only because you have a vested interest, because I can't fathom any other reason why you would so defend BitCoin in one sentence, yet accuse me of having an issue with fairness when the issue exists with both. From one form of control to another, you just happen to have more power in this version so it is more appealing to you. This isn't forum.usfrn.org, it's forum.bitcoin.org, btw. If you know a better way of introducing a new currency with all the advantages of Bitcoin without what you consider the faults of Bitcoin, please do it so the world can have access to such a fantastic creation. Trust me, if it's so much better, people will drop Bitcoin like a bad habit. Hell, it shoudn't be that hard, just build off of the back of Bitcoin. Working on it, although only on paper at this point. If you suggest there are no advantages to Bitcoin, then wtf are you doing posting on a Bitcoin forum? Trying to save us? With friends like that, who needs enemies?
Keeping myself apprised, of course. You know, so I can report to my bosses at the CIA. Plus I just enjoy debating on the internets. |
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MoonShadow
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June 16, 2011, 03:05:03 AM |
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No, we are not. My point was, if Bitcoin is a scam and early adopters are those who got into it in the past two years before you did, what then is the US FRN when the early adopters got into it before you were born? Injustice! We need to gather the troops and have a flash mob protest! Were you not alive for the past two years? Did you not have Internet access? Not know how to use Google? So a few hundred people make a mint because they new about something before you did are scammers, even though you had as much chance as anyone to do the same; while the legacy currency system that you were born into is the metric by which you judge fairness? Are you for real?
So because the US FRN did it, it's ok that BitCoin does it. Yet BitCoin is somehow far superior and above reproach. I suppose only because you have a vested interest, because I can't fathom any other reason why you would so defend BitCoin in one sentence, And because you can't fathom it, it must not be so, eh? I don't have a vested interest. I don't have many coins. What I have, I bought. I've never mined. And 80%+ of what I have bought has been spent or donated away. The reason that I am an advocate of bitcoin, and I am, is because of the massive potential it has in creating a better world. If the act of doing so begets a few hundred new wealthy people with more foresight than I, who am I to complain? Who are you to complain? If Bitcoin fails, then they are out much, but you are out nothing. And I am out very little. But if it succeeds, then even those who have not yet even heard of Bitcoin, or even ever used the Internet at all, shall benefit. Some more than others, certainly; but so what?
yet accuse me of having an issue with fairness when the issue exists with both. From one form of control to another, you just happen to have more power in this version so it is more appealing to you. This isn't forum.usfrn.org, it's forum.bitcoin.org, btw.
No, I'm accusing you of hypocrisy. And of being a professional troll. I've reviewed your entire posting history, and there isn't even plausible deniability. couldn't even be bothered to start with some noob question, I see. Went straight into trolling from the first post. The only reason that you can still talk is because I don't believe in censorship. You have a right to be an ass. That said, I've started the process for mod accountability, and have enlisted other mods to review your history as well. If they agree with my assessment, well, we shall see what happens next. Keeping myself apprised, of course. You know, so I can report to my bosses at the CIA.
If you worked for the CIA, you'd be quiet. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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Etlase
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June 16, 2011, 03:35:52 AM |
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And because you can't fathom it, it must not be so, eh? I don't have a vested interest. I don't have many coins. What I have, I bought. I've never mined. And 80%+ of what I have bought has been spent or donated away. The reason that I am an advocate of bitcoin, and I am, is because of the massive potential it has in creating a better world. Perhaps then you will be a bit more open to a reasonable debate when you can see for yourself that there is another way. Until then, we'll have to wait. No, I'm accusing you of hypocrisy. And of being a professional troll. I've reviewed your entire posting history, and there isn't even plausible deniability. couldn't even be bothered to start with some noob question, I see. Went straight into trolling from the first post. The only reason that you can still talk is because I don't believe in censorship. You have a right to be an ass. That said, I've started the process for mod accountability, and have enlisted other mods to review your history as well. If they agree with my assessment, well, we shall see what happens next. So because I decided to spend a lot of time reading about how BitCoin works before posting, I must be a professional troll? I found out about BC on another forum and was instantly enamored by it. Once I dug deeper, the flaws started slapping me in the face. And these were certainly not cryptographical flaws as I have little understanding of cryptography. They are basic, underlying flaws that debase BitCoin as a reliable currency. I couldn't help but post about it. Perhaps they are only my opinion, but that does not mean my posts have no merit. The vocal minority needs its place. Pretty sad though that you can't handle a strongly dissenting voice and feel the need to have me "reviewed" even though I haven't broken any rules. |
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rezin777
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June 16, 2011, 03:55:38 AM |
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So because I decided to spend a lot of time reading about how BitCoin works before posting, I must be a professional troll? I found out about BC on another forum and was instantly enamored by it. Once I dug deeper, the flaws started slapping me in the face. And these were certainly not cryptographical flaws as I have little understanding of cryptography. They are basic, underlying flaws that debase BitCoin as a reliable currency. I couldn't help but not post about it. Perhaps they are only my opinion, but that does not mean my posts have no merit. The vocal minority needs its place.
Pretty sad though that you can't handle a strongly dissenting voice and feel the need to have me "reviewed" even though I haven't broken any rules.
It's my opinion that these flaws you see are exactly what has allowed Bitcoin the success it has already achieved. One of the ways to prevent the "early adopter issue" is to inflate the coins according to the difficulty instead of steady inflation. I simply don't see this working because no one would value something that was so readily available. I look forward to seeing how you create value and spread it evenly to anyone that wants it while convincing them all that it actually has value. Of course I've been looking forward to this from every other forum member who suggested they were going to do the same thing. Perhaps you plan skip the value part altogether and create a decentralized ledger book based on trust? It could work, if you found a way to prevent people from gaming the system. But that would require identities. But there is no point in my speculation, I'll just wait patiently. Oh, and I think the issue is that your dissenting voice is just an echo of the countless people before you who have made the same exact argument before. You haven't brought anything new to the table. I realize you couldn't help but post, but really, have some originality or at least define your terms. From my understanding of your usage, anything that allows people to profit from being first to the table is a ponzi scheme! A ponzi scheme relies on a lack of flow of information from the schemers to the investors, among other things. It simply doesn't fit Bitcoin, which has been open source and public from the start! |
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MoonShadow
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June 16, 2011, 03:59:06 AM
Last edit: June 16, 2011, 04:12:07 AM by MoonShadow |
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And because you can't fathom it, it must not be so, eh? I don't have a vested interest. I don't have many coins. What I have, I bought. I've never mined. And 80%+ of what I have bought has been spent or donated away. The reason that I am an advocate of bitcoin, and I am, is because of the massive potential it has in creating a better world. Perhaps then you will be a bit more open to a reasonable debate when you can see for yourself that there is another way. Until then, we'll have to wait. I'll consider what you can offer. No, I'm accusing you of hypocrisy. And of being a professional troll. I've reviewed your entire posting history, and there isn't even plausible deniability. couldn't even be bothered to start with some noob question, I see. Went straight into trolling from the first post. The only reason that you can still talk is because I don't believe in censorship. You have a right to be an ass. That said, I've started the process for mod accountability, and have enlisted other mods to review your history as well. If they agree with my assessment, well, we shall see what happens next. So because I decided to spend a lot of time reading about how BitCoin works before posting, I must be a professional troll? I found out about BC on another forum and was instantly enamored by it. Once I dug deeper, the flaws started slapping me in the face. And these were certainly not cryptographical flaws as I have little understanding of cryptography. They are basic, underlying flaws that debase BitCoin as a reliable currency. I couldn't help but post about it. Perhaps they are only my opinion, but that does not mean my posts have no merit. The vocal minority needs its place. Pretty sad though that you can't handle a strongly dissenting voice and feel the need to have me "reviewed" even though I haven't broken any rules. You have broken the rules. The accepted rules of common Internet civility. You have hijacked every thread I've seen you on with your "opinions". If the "vocal minority" needs it's place, it can go found it's own. These other forum members came here to learn about Bitcoin and how to use it. They don't want to have to wade through your stinking pile of "opinions" in order to gleen out a respectable understanding. You come into our house and then shit on our kitchen table and declare, "the minority needs a place to crap". The place to spew FUD is elsewhere. The Internet is vast, go start another "Bitcoins are a scam" blog. If someone comes in here looking for the counterpoint, I'll be more than happy to hotlink straight to your little shit filled corner of the web. I've had enough of this. Go find another street corner, Padre. EDIT: I've deleted all your trollish comments, except those last few in this thread. I left your non-trollish posts alone. Both of them. From here on out, I will delete every remotely trollish thing that you say, but I'm not going to ban you or censor you in advance. I want you to be able to make an even bigger ass out of yourself going forward, just not long term. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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aral
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June 16, 2011, 09:48:38 AM |
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I am really really sick of hearing this, so I will finally speak up. The reason th finders of the first blocks deserve their wealth is simple. If you mined 100,000 bitcoins at the beginning and you are set up to be an 'early adopter billionare' then you had to: - Not sell when the price hit $1 ($100,000!!!)
- Not sell when the price hit $10 ($1,000,000!!)
- And so on..
I dont know about you, but that takes some balls to turn down $100,000, much less a million. Hell, I would have had a hard time not selling at .50, i mean, come on, $50,000? How can you say no? Those guys that still have some original blocks deserve every penny For one thing, you couldn't have sold 100,000 BTC just like that. You have to sell it slowly, in smaller chunks, at least at all of those times in the past you mention, simply nobody would have bought it. And there are restrictions right now on mt gox on how much can be traded in $. But that's not the point here really, the point here is envy and a lot of people have come here and turned green when they realise some people are sitting pretty because they had the foresight and fortune to get involved in a powerful idea early on. They know they would have taken the same choices given the opportunity, but fate didn't give them the opportunity. That's a natural envy that some people on here are sadly too weak to resist. But your attack on them is totally misguided. Nobody 'deserves' to be a billionaire, just as nobody deserves to be in poverty. That's the way the world is, it ain't right but that's how it is. There is nothing just and fair about it and there is nothing intrinsically fair about bitcoin. Bitcoin knows no right and wrong, no deserving and undeserving, so let's cut the crap about all of that and just get on with making the best of the opportunities presented to us. |
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Nescio
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June 17, 2011, 02:52:38 AM |
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If Bitcoin fails, then they are out much, but you are out nothing. And I am out very little. If Bitcoin fails, we are all out a lot  (3% inflation a year equals 1921% in a century..) |
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