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Author Topic: greece and the TEM currency/barter  (Read 1212 times)
gabbergabe
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January 14, 2013, 08:54:17 AM
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take a look at this, maybe bitcoin could help out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsD1I9bOgEs

Check out my soundcloud and help support up and coming EDM artists like myself!!  soundcloud.com/killvisionseattle  and if you would like to donate and help support please do thank you so much!!!
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xxjs
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January 14, 2013, 11:12:55 AM
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take a look at this, maybe bitcoin could help out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsD1I9bOgEs

I have not found the system adequately explained anywhere. It is notes denominated in euros. Are they 100% backed by euro notes stored in a warehouse? Probably not. 100% backed by a euro savings account? Probably not. Partially backed by a savings account? Probably not. This leaves only the possibility of them being a form of debt. Does the organization that issue them receive 100% payment from the users? Probably not, but if so, where are the money going? If the users does not pay for them, how are they distributed to the users? A certain amount per person? We don't know.

Anyway, being debt, the notes will have a value less than nominal. We have also seen from the newspaper reports they are not usable for all kinds of trade, for instance a doctors bill can only partly be paid with TEM's, the rest must be paid in euros. When the system is being wound down some time in the future, the holders will loose the value of their TEM's.

All in all, this experiment is not really interesting from a money system aspect.
gabbergabe
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January 14, 2013, 11:44:05 AM
 #3

take a look at this, maybe bitcoin could help out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsD1I9bOgEs

I have not found the system adequately explained anywhere. It is notes denominated in euros. Are they 100% backed by euro notes stored in a warehouse? Probably not. 100% backed by a euro savings account? Probably not. Partially backed by a savings account? Probably not. This leaves only the possibility of them being a form of debt. Does the organization that issue them receive 100% payment from the users? Probably not, but if so, where are the money going? If the users does not pay for them, how are they distributed to the users? A certain amount per person? We don't know.

Anyway, being debt, the notes will have a value less than nominal. We have also seen from the newspaper reports they are not usable for all kinds of trade, for instance a doctors bill can only partly be paid with TEM's, the rest must be paid in euros. When the system is being wound down some time in the future, the holders will loose the value of their TEM's.

All in all, this experiment is not really interesting from a money system aspect.


Yea I was pretty suprised myself but as you see in the video it works well on a small local scale.

Check out my soundcloud and help support up and coming EDM artists like myself!!  soundcloud.com/killvisionseattle  and if you would like to donate and help support please do thank you so much!!!
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January 14, 2013, 11:49:18 AM
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Here: http://hammeroftruth.com/2013/bartering-gets-popular/ (and even Bitcoin is mentioned)

they state it's been exchanged to € 1 to 1. So someone probably just prints them and sells them for €.

I expect them to become worthless at some point.

Read more here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/02/euro-greece-barter-poverty-crisis

All previous versions of currency will no longer be supported as of this update
gabbergabe
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January 14, 2013, 11:55:46 AM
 #5

did you see the office in which TEM was head quartered at in the video? It was sharing the suit with a seamstress and her sewing business.

That alone had me thinking this wasnt going anywhere it is but in time of need they seem to have found a temp solution for day to day items being purchased without having income but rather a barter system.

Now that I think of it bitcoin wouldn't have helped them unless the town had a few miners in the beginning who they them selves excepted TEM in exchange for bitcoin. But TEM has a 1200$ limit per person so I  guess thats why it wont go too far.

Check out my soundcloud and help support up and coming EDM artists like myself!!  soundcloud.com/killvisionseattle  and if you would like to donate and help support please do thank you so much!!!
15yVnpEZhDFX89EpvPc2s3qK5owNe8pihk
xxjs
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January 14, 2013, 12:11:08 PM
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Here: http://hammeroftruth.com/2013/bartering-gets-popular/ (and even Bitcoin is mentioned)

they state it's been exchanged to € 1 to 1. So someone probably just prints them and sells them for €.

I expect them to become worthless at some point.

Read more here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/02/euro-greece-barter-poverty-crisis

I read the Guardian article earlier. Unfortunately it does not explain the system. It is not barter, obviously.
xxjs
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January 14, 2013, 12:13:49 PM
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did you see the office in which TEM was head quartered at in the video? It was sharing the suit with a seamstress and her sewing business.

That alone had me thinking this wasnt going anywhere it is but in time of need they seem to have found a temp solution for day to day items being purchased without having income but rather a barter system.

Now that I think of it bitcoin wouldn't have helped them unless the town had a few miners in the beginning who they them selves excepted TEM in exchange for bitcoin. But TEM has a 1200$ limit per person so I  guess thats why it wont go too far.
Akka
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January 14, 2013, 12:15:56 PM
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Here: http://hammeroftruth.com/2013/bartering-gets-popular/ (and even Bitcoin is mentioned)

they state it's been exchanged to € 1 to 1. So someone probably just prints them and sells them for €.

I expect them to become worthless at some point.

Read more here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/02/euro-greece-barter-poverty-crisis

I read the Guardian article earlier. Unfortunately it does not explain the system. It is not barter, obviously.

As I understand it, they are using it as they use cash. Even value them exactly as €. The only point is to evade taxes.

I could be totally wrong, though. And Yes, that's not barter.

All previous versions of currency will no longer be supported as of this update
xxjs
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January 14, 2013, 12:16:33 PM
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did you see the office in which TEM was head quartered at in the video? It was sharing the suit with a seamstress and her sewing business.

That alone had me thinking this wasnt going anywhere it is but in time of need they seem to have found a temp solution for day to day items being purchased without having income but rather a barter system.

Now that I think of it bitcoin wouldn't have helped them unless the town had a few miners in the beginning who they them selves excepted TEM in exchange for bitcoin. But TEM has a 1200$ limit per person so I  guess thats why it wont go too far.

It is not barter, as they use these TEM's.

These people need credit, so bitcoin would not help them. There is no shortage of euro notes, it is just that they do not have them, and it is difficult to earn them.
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January 14, 2013, 12:52:00 PM
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These people need credit, so bitcoin would not help them.

False. They don't need any kind of credit. These people only need to recover their economic sobereignty, not their politicians. They don't need euros or newdracmes, they need BTC

gabbergabe
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January 15, 2013, 03:56:35 AM
 #11

well ok its not barter but isnt a little bit of both?

I mean the auto mechanic does work on the mans car, he then pays with TEM and then in return he could use that to buy olive oil. But If you remove the piece of paper that is the TEM note isnt it just pretty much a barter system?

Thank you all for replying and clearing things up, please try to keep a positive tone. If someone doesnt know just politely correct them.

To many times on this forum have I seen or had it happen to me where the wrong answer or misinformation leads to someone jumping your shit as if you said the wrong answer to piss them off. Or they just have this attitude that you should have known or that they know all and everyone else is stupid. 

anyways..

Check out my soundcloud and help support up and coming EDM artists like myself!!  soundcloud.com/killvisionseattle  and if you would like to donate and help support please do thank you so much!!!
15yVnpEZhDFX89EpvPc2s3qK5owNe8pihk
xxjs
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January 15, 2013, 08:56:11 AM
 #12

well ok its not barter but isnt a little bit of both?

I mean the auto mechanic does work on the mans car, he then pays with TEM and then in return he could use that to buy olive oil. But If you remove the piece of paper that is the TEM note isnt it just pretty much a barter system?
No, this is exactly what we call a money economy. Without money (in this case TEM's) it would be barter.
Thank you all for replying and clearing things up, please try to keep a positive tone. If someone doesnt know just politely correct them.

To many times on this forum have I seen or had it happen to me where the wrong answer or misinformation leads to someone jumping your shit as if you said the wrong answer to piss them off. Or they just have this attitude that you should have known or that they know all and everyone else is stupid. 

anyways..

Just grow a thick skin and carry on. This is the Internet!
tsakf
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January 18, 2013, 08:02:27 PM
 #13

The Greek TEM is a Local Exchange Trading System. See at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_exchange_trading_system
xxjs
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January 18, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
 #14

The Greek TEM is a Local Exchange Trading System. See at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_exchange_trading_system

How do they aquire the TEM's?
casascius
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January 18, 2013, 09:26:35 PM
 #15

How do they aquire the TEM's?

The way I understood it, everyone was given a fixed amount of them from the start (like 300).  Either that, or everyone was given 0 but the ability for their account balance to be drawn to -300.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
xxjs
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January 18, 2013, 10:44:06 PM
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How do they aquire the TEM's?

The way I understood it, everyone was given a fixed amount of them from the start (like 300).  Either that, or everyone was given 0 but the ability for their account balance to be drawn to -300.

All right, that could work, but I really think they should choose another unit, not Euro, and I think they should really limit the supply, for instance to 21 million...
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