Need ideas for a possible presentation...

[commandrix]

The Mars Society is going to be putting out its call for presentations for its annual conference in the near future and one thing I thought I might do for a topic is how cryptocurrencies could fit into an interplanetary economy. I know the speed of light will likely be a concern for confirming transactions, but that's about the only weakness I can think of. What do you guys think?

[franky1]

The Mars Society is going to be putting out its call for presentations for its annual conference in the near future and one thing I thought I might do for a topic is how cryptocurrencies could fit into an interplanetary economy. I know the speed of light will likely be a concern for confirming transactions, but that's about the only weakness I can think of. What do you guys think?

if you put 20 people in a room for the rest of their lives. where all the food is in one centralised store. all tastes the same, is all equally rationed out and all the people have designated jobs. there is no need for currency. because everyone is on the same level. all the food is rationed out equally. their shifts are scheduled equally.

currency is used more for people that move around and do different jobs at different times where currency can be used to tempt people to work hard jobs or unsocial hours. and where food is not centrally located but allowing for variety and choice of supplier and quality.

also on mars there is no need for a distributed ledger. because they are all stuck in the same room. its easy enough to slap someone with a piece of mars rock should they steal rations.

for currency to be worthy on mars. there would need to be different grades of food.
EG instead of 10,000 packets of bland dried protein bars. there would be 5,000 bland protein bars and 5,000 flavoured protein bars.

plus lots of other things about work needed to be completed and hours doing tasks to be rewarded X currency which rewards them the possibility of X food or time off.

but equal rationed, low variety food and scheduled work wont make a currency viable

[KiwiParty]

currency is not a nice to have, it is essential for every market to prosper.
Not every work, not every product is of the same quality, some have better experience, maybe more talent.
Currency is to only way to reflect this. The future won't be without,
unless ALL work is done and products are produced by automation.

[mtnsaa]

currency is not a nice to have, it is essential for every market to prosper.
Not every work, not every product is of the same quality, some have better experience, maybe more talent.
Currency is to only way to reflect this. The future won't be without,
unless ALL work is done and products are produced by automation.

Exactly, plus as individual persons, some need more resources than others, or demand more. This debate reminds me of communism. You can't supress the will to improve in the human being. But also, not every individual person is the same, to put it bluntly, a beatiful person have many more chances to succeed in life, whatever that means than a ugly or disable person, it's human nature and it sucks but it's the truth. So as long as there are perceived differences in the world, there will be wars and disagreements...and you guess it...currencies.

[Gleb Gamow]

The Mars Society is going to be putting out its call for presentations for its annual conference in the near future and one thing I thought I might do for a topic is how cryptocurrencies could fit into an interplanetary economy. I know the speed of light will likely be a concern for confirming transactions, but that's about the only weakness I can think of. What do you guys think?

if you put 20 people in a room for the rest of their lives. where all the food is in one centralised store. all tastes the same, is all equally rationed out and all the people have designated jobs. there is no need for currency. because everyone is on the same level. all the food is rationed out equally. their shifts are scheduled equally.

currency is used more for people that move around and do different jobs at different times where currency can be used to tempt people to work hard jobs or unsocial hours. and where food is not centrally located but allowing for variety and choice of supplier and quality.

also on mars there is no need for a distributed ledger. because they are all stuck in the same room. its easy enough to slap someone with a piece of mars rock should they steal rations.

for currency to be worthy on mars. there would need to be different grades of food.
EG instead of 10,000 packets of bland dried protein bars. there would be 5,000 bland protein bars and 5,000 flavoured protein bars.

plus lots of other things about work needed to be completed and hours doing tasks to be rewarded X currency which rewards them the possibility of X food or time off.

but equal rationed, low variety food and scheduled work wont make a currency viable

Very nice post, Frank, albeit I was under the assumption that the OP is concerned about funding the project, not necessarily creating a currency to be used on Mars. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[franky1]

Very nice post, Frank, albeit I was under the assumption that the OP is concerned about funding the project, not necessarily creating a currency to be used on Mars. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

i was under the impression if he has been given an invite to do a presentation, then he must have already planned how to fund it. and just needed advice about how and what to talk about.

and so i gave my advice.
basically unless there is variety and choice of work, food and shelter, currency is irrelevant in such close quarters without such variety/choice

[commandrix]

The Mars Society is going to be putting out its call for presentations for its annual conference in the near future and one thing I thought I might do for a topic is how cryptocurrencies could fit into an interplanetary economy. I know the speed of light will likely be a concern for confirming transactions, but that's about the only weakness I can think of. What do you guys think?

if you put 20 people in a room for the rest of their lives. where all the food is in one centralised store. all tastes the same, is all equally rationed out and all the people have designated jobs. there is no need for currency. because everyone is on the same level. all the food is rationed out equally. their shifts are scheduled equally.

currency is used more for people that move around and do different jobs at different times where currency can be used to tempt people to work hard jobs or unsocial hours. and where food is not centrally located but allowing for variety and choice of supplier and quality.

also on mars there is no need for a distributed ledger. because they are all stuck in the same room. its easy enough to slap someone with a piece of mars rock should they steal rations.

for currency to be worthy on mars. there would need to be different grades of food.
EG instead of 10,000 packets of bland dried protein bars. there would be 5,000 bland protein bars and 5,000 flavoured protein bars.

plus lots of other things about work needed to be completed and hours doing tasks to be rewarded X currency which rewards them the possibility of X food or time off.

but equal rationed, low variety food and scheduled work wont make a currency viable

No thoughts, then, on what might happen when we have three colonies on Mars, spaced just far enough apart that their respective members aren't constantly getting in each other's way but close enough that regular travel via blimp wouldn't be unfeasible? (Yes, it's possible to have an aircraft on Mars. No, it probably won't look like a Boeing 747.) What if Colony A decides that they want to trade some of its strawberry flavored protein bars for some of Colony B's blueberry flavored protein bars, but Colony B decides they don't like strawberry flavored protein bars and they want some of Colony C's banana flavored bars instead?

I do have an outline for my presentation. I just wanted to get your thoughts on the matter while I filled in the details.

[fuathan]

Speed of light doesn't a concern in 100 years (only 1-2 minutes between Mars and Earth) but after that there is no money or crypto at this rate...

[commandrix]

Speed of light doesn't a concern in 100 years (only 1-2 minutes between Mars and Earth) but after that there is no money or crypto at this rate...

Actually, a radio signal can take between three and twenty-one minutes to get from Earth to Mars, and that's just for a one-way communication. That's why the Mars rover teams always have to plan their activities so carefully. If they detect that their rover is about to get stuck or slide off a cliff or something, it may already be too late to do anything about it. That's why I brought up the time delay problem.

[franky1]

No thoughts, then, on what might happen when we have three colonies on Mars, spaced just far enough apart that their respective members aren't constantly getting in each other's way but close enough that regular travel via blimp wouldn't be unfeasible? (Yes, it's possible to have an aircraft on Mars. No, it probably won't look like a Boeing 747.) What if Colony A decides that they want to trade some of its strawberry flavored protein bars for some of Colony B's blueberry flavored protein bars, but Colony B decides they don't like strawberry flavored protein bars and they want some of Colony C's banana flavored bars instead?

I do have an outline for my presentation. I just wanted to get your thoughts on the matter while I filled in the details.

well thats why i said.. if they all had bland, vanilla flavoured protein bars. and they all ha enough reserves to be rationed out fairly.. then no need for currency..

but say one colony hub was growing strawberries, another colony was growing oranges and the third was growing tomato's.. then trade between then would happen.

but if all colonies were just growing. potatos.. then no trade or currency would be needed.

like i said you cant just throw a currency into a project, it needs to solve a purpose. so if your going to present a currency, then show off its real benefits. like find out exactly what the plans for mars are.. find out wht type of rations american space agency stock up on/grow, then look at the russian space agency and chinese.. (the main groups hoping to get too mars) and show some REAL demo of swaps.. rather than making up uses that you have no clue of

[achow101]

Speed of light doesn't a concern in 100 years (only 1-2 minutes between Mars and Earth) but after that there is no money or crypto at this rate...

Actually, a radio signal can take between three and twenty-one minutes to get from Earth to Mars, and that's just for a one-way communication. That's why the Mars rover teams always have to plan their activities so carefully. If they detect that their rover is about to get stuck or slide off a cliff or something, it may already be too late to do anything about it. That's why I brought up the time delay problem.

With the time delay many transactions probably wouldn't be able to happen on chain. They would most likely need to be off chain transactions. Additionally, I don't think there is a lot of bandwidth but that could probably be remedied with a decently powerful transmitter. There are also issues with nighttime on Mars as during the night the only way to get communication to Earth would require sending signals to orbiters which relay to other orbiters which can then broadcast back to Earth and vice versa. Using Bitcoin would require this constant communication and those orbiters would need to be able to handle a lot of data and handle it quickly.

Also, IIRC there is a few weeks when there is a communications blackout because Mars is on the opposite side of the Sun.

It would be difficult to have on chain transactions while we still used radio, but once we get faster-than-light communications, that should become a non-issue. For now though, it would probably become having a Mars sidechain which is linked to the main Bitcoin blockchain.

[commandrix]

No thoughts, then, on what might happen when we have three colonies on Mars, spaced just far enough apart that their respective members aren't constantly getting in each other's way but close enough that regular travel via blimp wouldn't be unfeasible? (Yes, it's possible to have an aircraft on Mars. No, it probably won't look like a Boeing 747.) What if Colony A decides that they want to trade some of its strawberry flavored protein bars for some of Colony B's blueberry flavored protein bars, but Colony B decides they don't like strawberry flavored protein bars and they want some of Colony C's banana flavored bars instead?

I do have an outline for my presentation. I just wanted to get your thoughts on the matter while I filled in the details.

well thats why i said.. if they all had bland, vanilla flavoured protein bars. and they all ha enough reserves to be rationed out fairly.. then no need for currency..

but say one colony hub was growing strawberries, another colony was growing oranges and the third was growing tomato's.. then trade between then would happen.

but if all colonies were just growing. potatos.. then no trade or currency would be needed.

like i said you cant just throw a currency into a project, it needs to solve a purpose. so if your going to present a currency, then show off its real benefits. like find out exactly what the plans for mars are.. find out wht type of rations american space agency stock up on/grow, then look at the russian space agency and chinese.. (the main groups hoping to get too mars) and show some REAL demo of swaps.. rather than making up uses that you have no clue of

Well, sure...It wouldn't take much imagine to see how these three space agencies' efforts could evolve into space colonies that are developed enough to start specializing and trading. That's assuming all three agencies actually succeed in establishing bases on Mars, though it need not necessarily be through a government space agency considering that some private citizens have expressed interest in settling Mars. (A discussion for another day -- complicated topic.) The important thing to me here is that 1) Trade between colonies will happen and 2) The colonies involved will want some sort of medium of exchange they can use to do business with their neighbors if they don't want to be left behind economically.

I might make mention of smart contracts and other possible Blockchain apps that can be used to keep colonists honest in the new frontier, though. What do you guys think?

[chennan]

No thoughts, then, on what might happen when we have three colonies on Mars, spaced just far enough apart that their respective members aren't constantly getting in each other's way but close enough that regular travel via blimp wouldn't be unfeasible? (Yes, it's possible to have an aircraft on Mars. No, it probably won't look like a Boeing 747.) What if Colony A decides that they want to trade some of its strawberry flavored protein bars for some of Colony B's blueberry flavored protein bars, but Colony B decides they don't like strawberry flavored protein bars and they want some of Colony C's banana flavored bars instead?

I do have an outline for my presentation. I just wanted to get your thoughts on the matter while I filled in the details.

well thats why i said.. if they all had bland, vanilla flavoured protein bars. and they all ha enough reserves to be rationed out fairly.. then no need for currency..

but say one colony hub was growing strawberries, another colony was growing oranges and the third was growing tomato's.. then trade between then would happen.

but if all colonies were just growing. potatos.. then no trade or currency would be needed.

like i said you cant just throw a currency into a project, it needs to solve a purpose. so if your going to present a currency, then show off its real benefits. like find out exactly what the plans for mars are.. find out wht type of rations american space agency stock up on/grow, then look at the russian space agency and chinese.. (the main groups hoping to get too mars) and show some REAL demo of swaps.. rather than making up uses that you have no clue of

Well, sure...It wouldn't take much imagine to see how these three space agencies' efforts could evolve into space colonies that are developed enough to start specializing and trading. That's assuming all three agencies actually succeed in establishing bases on Mars, though it need not necessarily be through a government space agency considering that some private citizens have expressed interest in settling Mars. (A discussion for another day -- complicated topic.) The important thing to me here is that 1) Trade between colonies will happen and 2) The colonies involved will want some sort of medium of exchange they can use to do business with their neighbors if they don't want to be left behind economically.

I might make mention of smart contracts and other possible Blockchain apps that can be used to keep colonists honest in the new frontier, though. What do you guys think?

Well I don't even think that it HAS to do with trading goods on Mars alone... As you said, it would be "good for an interplanetary currency", in that it would be useful maybe to act as a currency that can be traded with people on mars, earth, etc.

Just thinking about it makes it sound super Sci-fi, but the thing is, is that this could theoretically work I think.  So, it doesn't really have to be "vanilla protein bars vs. strawberry protein bars" on planet mars...

Let's just say, for some odd reason, there are fantastic resources on Mars to grow the biggest, most plump pumpkins than you could on earth... or maybe there is some unknown gold/oil reserve in the planet of Mars.  So people who go there could trade with people on Mars as well as Earth, Earth's moon, the ISS, etc. You never know... there could be "job" openings due to colonizing Mars, rather than going there just to see if you can survive with a group of 20 people or so.

[commandrix]

No thoughts, then, on what might happen when we have three colonies on Mars, spaced just far enough apart that their respective members aren't constantly getting in each other's way but close enough that regular travel via blimp wouldn't be unfeasible? (Yes, it's possible to have an aircraft on Mars. No, it probably won't look like a Boeing 747.) What if Colony A decides that they want to trade some of its strawberry flavored protein bars for some of Colony B's blueberry flavored protein bars, but Colony B decides they don't like strawberry flavored protein bars and they want some of Colony C's banana flavored bars instead?

I do have an outline for my presentation. I just wanted to get your thoughts on the matter while I filled in the details.

well thats why i said.. if they all had bland, vanilla flavoured protein bars. and they all ha enough reserves to be rationed out fairly.. then no need for currency..

but say one colony hub was growing strawberries, another colony was growing oranges and the third was growing tomato's.. then trade between then would happen.

but if all colonies were just growing. potatos.. then no trade or currency would be needed.

like i said you cant just throw a currency into a project, it needs to solve a purpose. so if your going to present a currency, then show off its real benefits. like find out exactly what the plans for mars are.. find out wht type of rations american space agency stock up on/grow, then look at the russian space agency and chinese.. (the main groups hoping to get too mars) and show some REAL demo of swaps.. rather than making up uses that you have no clue of

Well, sure...It wouldn't take much imagine to see how these three space agencies' efforts could evolve into space colonies that are developed enough to start specializing and trading. That's assuming all three agencies actually succeed in establishing bases on Mars, though it need not necessarily be through a government space agency considering that some private citizens have expressed interest in settling Mars. (A discussion for another day -- complicated topic.) The important thing to me here is that 1) Trade between colonies will happen and 2) The colonies involved will want some sort of medium of exchange they can use to do business with their neighbors if they don't want to be left behind economically.

I might make mention of smart contracts and other possible Blockchain apps that can be used to keep colonists honest in the new frontier, though. What do you guys think?

Well I don't even think that it HAS to do with trading goods on Mars alone... As you said, it would be "good for an interplanetary currency", in that it would be useful maybe to act as a currency that can be traded with people on mars, earth, etc.

Just thinking about it makes it sound super Sci-fi, but the thing is, is that this could theoretically work I think.  So, it doesn't really have to be "vanilla protein bars vs. strawberry protein bars" on planet mars...

Let's just say, for some odd reason, there are fantastic resources on Mars to grow the biggest, most plump pumpkins than you could on earth... or maybe there is some unknown gold/oil reserve in the planet of Mars.  So people who go there could trade with people on Mars as well as Earth, Earth's moon, the ISS, etc. You never know... there could be "job" openings due to colonizing Mars, rather than going there just to see if you can survive with a group of 20 people or so.

That's exactly what I think will happen. I'll probably be back tomorrow to continue the discussion, but for now, I recommend reading "How To Live On Mars" by Robert Zubrin. The short version is that it's possible to not only survive on Mars, but also thrive partly by being clever and partly by not ignoring economic opportunities. Probably not oil, but the resources to do both do theoretically exist on Mars.

[Kakmakr]

The Mars Society is going to be putting out its call for presentations for its annual conference in the near future and one thing I thought I might do for a topic is how cryptocurrencies could fit into an interplanetary economy. I know the speed of light will likely be a concern for confirming transactions, but that's about the only weakness I can think of. What do you guys think?

if you put 20 people in a room for the rest of their lives. where all the food is in one centralised store. all tastes the same, is all equally rationed out and all the people have designated jobs. there is no need for currency. because everyone is on the same level. all the food is rationed out equally. their shifts are scheduled equally.

currency is used more for people that move around and do different jobs at different times where currency can be used to tempt people to work hard jobs or unsocial hours. and where food is not centrally located but allowing for variety and choice of supplier and quality.

also on mars there is no need for a distributed ledger. because they are all stuck in the same room. its easy enough to slap someone with a piece of mars rock should they steal rations.

for currency to be worthy on mars. there would need to be different grades of food.
EG instead of 10,000 packets of bland dried protein bars. there would be 5,000 bland protein bars and 5,000 flavoured protein bars.

plus lots of other things about work needed to be completed and hours doing tasks to be rewarded X currency which rewards them the possibility of X food or time off.

but equal rationed, low variety food and scheduled work wont make a currency viable

Very nice post, Frank, albeit I was under the assumption that the OP is concerned about funding the project, not necessarily creating a currency to be used on Mars. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Gleb, he did mention this, < how cryptocurrencies could fit into an interplanetary economy. > So they are thinking of trade between more planets in the future and how that would work, with time delays due to distance. How do you sync a blockchain, if there is say a 30 minutes delay. Interesting topic, Thanks OP.

[Soros Shorts]

You cannot sync a blockchain if blocks are found every 10 minutes and it takes up to 21 minutes for a signal to reach from one node to another on the extreme edges of the network.

You'd need multiple chains for each region in space. Only nodes that are currently in low-latency communications with a particular chain's network should attempt to communicate with the blockchain in p2p mode. However, there should be a way for faraway nodes to receive block updates in read-only mode to receive a delayed sync (e.g., for audit purposes).

Some kind of transactional gateway would allow you to exchange coins from one chain to another. The transaction would take a long time to complete so you need to figure out how to minimize the risk of wildly fluctuating exchange risks for both counterparties. The price could crash by a large amount in 21 minutes - a universal chain where everyone has read/write p2p access would be super retarded.

Edit: There is also no reason why someone on earth cannot remotely own or operate a node/wallet on a Mars chain and vice versa. It just means that your "spend" command to your wallet/node takes a while to reach there.

[franky1]

Gleb, he did mention this, < how cryptocurrencies could fit into an interplanetary economy. > So they are thinking of trade between more planets in the future and how that would work, with time delays due to distance. How do you sync a blockchain, if there is say a 30 minutes delay. Interesting topic, Thanks OP.

in the situation of that..

if it takes mars 20 minutes tosend data to earth and vice versa.. then there is not an issue.

because you can order a pizza, and in 20 minutes earth receives it. and then......... here is the best part.......... takes 2 years to deliver it

its like bitcoin, where a 10 minute wait is not a problem if you already gonna wait 3-14 business days for a postal delivery

[franky1]

You cannot sync a blockchain if blocks are found every 10 minutes and it takes up to 21 minutes for a signal to reach from one node to another on the extreme edges of the network.

actually you can.. its just the sync would be 2-3 blocks different. so lets say that your on mars and you have funds that show as 3 confirmations..
martians would know that earth would already be at 5-6 confirmations if they seen that same originating funds
you send the funds out on a new transaction. by the time they reach earth the origin funds would have 7-9 confirmations and the new transaction gets added to a block and transmitted out. received by mars about 50 minutes after sending the transaction. which is not a problem becuase then there is a nice long 2 year wait for the goods to be delivered.

remember its not like blocks gap is now 30 minutes between block solves. its still 10 minutes.. just a lag on what the current block is, which can easily be worked around by not waiting for 6 confirmations to truely accept it. but work on 3 confirmations..

20 minutes delay over millions of miles is still better than handing a person 10 inches from your nose a cheque, that takes 3-5 days just to confirm

[Jet Cash]

Why not use a sidechain?

[commandrix]

LOL, you guys, I seriously don't think Martians are going to be ordering too much pizza from Earth. Especially when they could someday 3D-print their own pizza if they want to. But this has been a useful discussion. Thanks guys.