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Author Topic: German gold reserves hauled back to Germany  (Read 2191 times)
Luno
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January 16, 2013, 04:21:11 PM
 #1

Germany has the second largest gold reserve after the US. Last fall there were questions in germany about the the real size of reserves held abroad. So Bundesbank officials took on a world tour to count bars and bullions.

Now they want to take half of it home "for closer inspection". 150 tonnes from the US.

It's like a tax audit for the whole of EU. What if less is held than they thought? is the latest gold spike to $1700+ related to such a possibility? Are they afraid of not being able to get it if the ressesion deepens?

The fact that German politicians doubt the honesty or quality control of held gold in the US is kind of worriesome. Quite a far fetched and hostile excuse to take it home.

Fort knox has had forgery scandals in the past, but this seems like a statement of distrust in the US gold reserves.

If they get forged gold home, gold will skyrocket if they don't keep silent about it. If they get pure gold bars home, it won't acquit the US.
How is it that such a move of gold is not done covertly.


 
 
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January 16, 2013, 04:23:30 PM
 #2

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The fact that German politicians doubt the honesty or quality control of held gold in the US is kind of worriesome. Quite a far fetched and hostile excuse to take it home.

Now you lot know how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all the bloody time Tongue
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January 16, 2013, 04:51:43 PM
 #3

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The fact that German politicians doubt the honesty or quality control of held gold in the US is kind of worriesome. Quite a far fetched and hostile excuse to take it home.

Now you lot know how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all the bloody time Tongue

Lol. i'm neither German or American, It's just the absurdity of such news! If any of the arguments are real, it would set off a disaster in the markets.

Is it just Gold bug manipulation?


 
 
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January 16, 2013, 05:03:12 PM
 #4

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The fact that German politicians doubt the honesty or quality control of held gold in the US is kind of worriesome. Quite a far fetched and hostile excuse to take it home.

Now you lot know how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all the bloody time Tongue

Lol. i'm neither German or American, It's just the absurdity of such news! If any of the arguments are real, it would set off a disaster in the markets.

Is it just Gold bug manipulation?

same with bitcoins..why would you let someone else hold them for you when you have the capability to secure them yourself?

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notme
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January 16, 2013, 05:09:34 PM
 #5

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The fact that German politicians doubt the honesty or quality control of held gold in the US is kind of worriesome. Quite a far fetched and hostile excuse to take it home.

Now you lot know how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all the bloody time Tongue

Lol. i'm neither German or American, It's just the absurdity of such news! If any of the arguments are real, it would set off a disaster in the markets.

Is it just Gold bug manipulation?

same with bitcoins..why would you let someone else hold them for you when you have the capability to secure them yourself?

It's not the same.  With bitcoin there is no excuse for not securing them yourself.  Gold "owners" will give all kinds of excuses why the don't take delivery.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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January 16, 2013, 05:30:57 PM
 #6

Quote
The fact that German politicians doubt the honesty or quality control of held gold in the US is kind of worriesome. Quite a far fetched and hostile excuse to take it home.

Now you lot know how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all the bloody time Tongue

Lol. i'm neither German or American, It's just the absurdity of such news! If any of the arguments are real, it would set off a disaster in the markets.

Is it just Gold bug manipulation?

If gold goes up and the dollar goes down it won't be because of silly stuff like this, it will be because of hyper-inflation, this is merely a consequence of America's fraud, everyone is starting to want their money back, I wouldn't be surprised if China starts selling its bonds now too because apparently Japan is now the largest holder of the debt which is going to be bad news for them. This is another case of people trying to find fault with anything but themselves, awhile ago you even had the Americans accusing China of manipulating their currency etc. when they did the exact same thing.
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January 16, 2013, 08:29:02 PM
 #7

Long, but somewhat relevant:

Adam Smith wrote in 1775

"At Amsterdam, however, no point of faith is better established than that, for every guilder circulated as bank money, there is a correspondent guilder in gold or silver to be found in the treasures of the bank. The city is guarantee that it should be so. The bank is under the direction of the four reigning burgomasters who are changed every year. Each new set of burgomasters visits the treasure, compares it with the books, receives it upon oath, and delivers it over, with the same awful solemnity to the set which succeeds; and in that sober and religious country, oaths are not yet disregarded. A rotation of this kind seems alone a sufficient security against any practices which cannot be avowed. Amidst all the revolutions which faction has ever occasioned in the government of Amsterdam, the prevailing party has at no time accused their predecessors of infidelity in the administration of the bank. No accusation could have affected more deeply the reputation and fortune of the disgraced party; and if such an accusation could have been supported, we may be assured that it would have been brought. In 1672, when the French king was at Utrecht, the bank of Amsterdam paid so readily, as left no doubt of the fidelity with which it had observed its engagements. Some of the pieces which were then brought from its repositories, appeared to have been scorched with the fire which happened in the town-house soon after the bank was established. Those pieces, therefore, must have lain there from that time. "

And in 1895, Alexander del Mar wrote

"Alas, for Dutch burgher patriotism, and the credulity of our great Scotch
sophist! When, fourteen years later, that is to say, in
1790, the French again invaded Holland, they found
the bank empty and insolvent. Even whilst Adam
Smith was penning his panegyrics, it was secretly
loaning away bullion which belonged to its depositors
and noteholders. Its pious burgomasters were forsworn,
the City was dishonored, and the woild received its
hundredth useless lesson on the folly of trusting to the
stability of a monetary system which is not absolutely
under the thumb of the State."

Methinks the Germans are allowed to be a bit sceptic.
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January 16, 2013, 08:33:26 PM
 #8

Ah...on third reading, it seems mr Del Mar would have would have had sufficient faith in the bank if it was under the thumb of the State. Well.
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January 16, 2013, 08:36:42 PM
 #9

great history lesson! +1

Government seperate from finance, an appealing concept.


 
 
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Frequency
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January 16, 2013, 08:52:36 PM
 #10

If all countries would take there gold or other metals back at ones..hell breakes loose, i know for example the Dutch don,t know how many fysical gold they have excactly, if they went over to NY and ask for it they will show them the same pile as they show the Germans, just change the tag..... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

( http://www.nu.nl/beurs/2969111/sp-en-cda-bezorgd-nederlandse-goudvoorraad.html )

Put your money were your mouth is…       #coinderdotcom
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January 16, 2013, 08:57:40 PM
 #11

If all countries would take there gold or other metals back at ones..hell breakes loose, i know for example the Dutch don,t know how many fysical gold they have excactly, if they went over to NY and ask for it they will show them the same pile as they show the Germans, just change the tag..... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

( http://www.nu.nl/beurs/2969111/sp-en-cda-bezorgd-nederlandse-goudvoorraad.html )

Where does habit of shipping your gold to the US come from, WWII?


 
 
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notme
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January 16, 2013, 09:01:14 PM
 #12

Ah...on third reading, it seems mr Del Mar would have would have had sufficient faith in the bank if it was under the thumb of the State. Well.

It may have been the best option available at the time.  They really didn't have any good way of doing it.  We do now... since 2009 Smiley.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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January 16, 2013, 09:07:06 PM
 #13

If all countries would take there gold or other metals back at ones..hell breakes loose, i know for example the Dutch don,t know how many fysical gold they have excactly, if they went over to NY and ask for it they will show them the same pile as they show the Germans, just change the tag..... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

( http://www.nu.nl/beurs/2969111/sp-en-cda-bezorgd-nederlandse-goudvoorraad.html )

Where does habit of shipping your gold to the US come from, WWII?

Yep, there were reasons ( Huh)  for some gouvernaments to stack there gold reserves in different parts of the world, Canada, VS, GB ect. for logistic reasons and because of the hassle it brings...thats why i love BTC...lol...no hassle..

Put your money were your mouth is…       #coinderdotcom
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January 16, 2013, 09:11:21 PM
 #14

If all countries would take there gold or other metals back at ones..hell breakes loose, i know for example the Dutch don,t know how many fysical gold they have excactly, if they went over to NY and ask for it they will show them the same pile as they show the Germans, just change the tag..... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

( http://www.nu.nl/beurs/2969111/sp-en-cda-bezorgd-nederlandse-goudvoorraad.html )

Where does habit of shipping your gold to the US come from, WWII?

Yep, there were reasons ( Huh)  for some gouvernaments to stack there gold reserves in different parts of the world, Canada, VS, GB ect. for logistic reasons and because of the hassle it brings...thats why i love BTC...lol...no hassle..

Yep.  War was a biggie since the invading forces tend to just take shit.  International trade was the other biggie.  By having trusted third party hold the gold nations could easily settle up by asking the third party to reallocate the gold.  It was the "trusted" part that broke down is 1971 when France asked the US for the gold value of the bonds it held.  Nixon promptly went on television to announce that dollars were no longer convertible to gold and thus we stole much of the world's gold.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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Luno
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January 16, 2013, 09:30:02 PM
 #15

Damned Americans!

Denmark: has 67 Tonnes in Bank of England and only 2-3 Tonnes in the US. Phew!!

I know, not much. Apparently it's loaned out at interest?? How can my county call it a reserve then?


 
 
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notme
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January 16, 2013, 09:31:27 PM
 #16

Damned Americans!

Denmark: has 67 Tonnes in Bank of England and only 2-3 Tonnes in the US. Phew!!

I know, not much. Apparently it's loaned out at interest?? How can my county call it a reserve then?

Because they trust who they lent it to Roll Eyes.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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vokain
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January 16, 2013, 09:40:23 PM
 #17

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The fact that German politicians doubt the honesty or quality control of held gold in the US is kind of worriesome. Quite a far fetched and hostile excuse to take it home.

Now you lot know how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all the bloody time Tongue

Lol. i'm neither German or American, It's just the absurdity of such news! If any of the arguments are real, it would set off a disaster in the markets.

Is it just Gold bug manipulation?

same with bitcoins..why would you let someone else hold them for you when you have the capability to secure them yourself?

It's not the same.  With bitcoin there is no excuse for not securing them yourself.  Gold "owners" will give all kinds of excuses why the don't take delivery.

I was referring to the perspective of a central bank like Germany has, it would be more wise to keep your gold in one place when you have such a large store. It's not individual people trading ounces in and out, it's a store of value. They should keep that store secure. The clear thing is that America is no longer a secure place to keep one's gold (FDR anyone?).

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Luno
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January 16, 2013, 09:43:18 PM
 #18

Damned Americans!

Denmark: has 67 Tonnes in Bank of England and only 2-3 Tonnes in the US. Phew!!

I know, not much. Apparently it's loaned out at interest?? How can my county call it a reserve then?

Because they trust who they lent it to Roll Eyes.

So it goes like this?:

1. Suspend gold interchangeability and print more paper money

2. Lease out the country's gold from another country's bank.

3. 2*profit!!

It's like eating you cake twice but keeping the box if anyone asks!


 
 
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robocoin
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January 16, 2013, 10:25:47 PM
 #19

Quote
The fact that German politicians doubt the honesty or quality control of held gold in the US is kind of worriesome. Quite a far fetched and hostile excuse to take it home.

Now you lot know how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all the bloody time Tongue

Lol. i'm neither German or American, It's just the absurdity of such news! If any of the arguments are real, it would set off a disaster in the markets.

Is it just Gold bug manipulation?

same with bitcoins..why would you let someone else hold them for you when you have the capability to secure them yourself?

It's not the same.  With bitcoin there is no excuse for not securing them yourself.  Gold "owners" will give all kinds of excuses why the don't take delivery.

I was referring to the perspective of a central bank like Germany has, it would be more wise to keep your gold in one place when you have such a large store. It's not individual people trading ounces in and out, it's a store of value. They should keep that store secure. The clear thing is that America is no longer a secure place to keep one's gold (FDR anyone?).

It is mostly historicaly related, why there are such large reserves stored in the U.S., U.K. and France. In times of the cold-war it seemed reasonable to have this assets at different save locations. And the Bundesbank is just doing what it would do if there was no cold-war. Also 1256.52 tonnes will remain in NYC (not Fort Knox), that is 37% of German gold reserves. Not so much about distrust in my eyes.
But how do the French feel about it? This week we celebrate 50 years of France-German friendship and Germany just announced it wants all of its gold back.  Roll Eyes

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100384749
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January 17, 2013, 10:20:34 PM
 #20

"Hauled" is not the right verb to be using in this context .... US fed can only deliver 50 tons per year for the next 7 years, basically is how long it takes to buy it off the mines I'd imagine.

More like a trickle and not even a majority of the holding will be repatriated. So basically the terms of delivery have been changed, i.e. would be called default in any other era.

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