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Author Topic: The Kochs Are Plotting A Multimillion-Dollar Assault On Electric Vehicles  (Read 1841 times)
LiteCoinGuy (OP)
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February 19, 2016, 04:20:13 PM
 #1

The Kochs Are Plotting A Multimillion-Dollar Assault On Electric Vehicles

The oil and gas industry may have thought it had killed the electric car, but sales -- boosted by generous government subsidies -- rose dramatically between 2010 and 2014, and energy giants are worried the thing may have come back to life.

Time to kill it again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/koch-electric-vehicles_us_56c4d63ce4b0b40245c8cbf6

aardvark15
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February 19, 2016, 05:47:28 PM
 #2

Maybe the Kochs should put their money into investing in electric cars rather than fighting it.  If they are going to spend the money anyway, why not?
Wilikon
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February 19, 2016, 05:51:30 PM
 #3




I never understood where all that energy is coming from when recharging all those EVs... Free air? Wind? Nuclear?


Or good ol' petrol?


bryant.coleman
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February 19, 2016, 06:02:04 PM
 #4

Electric cars are insanely expensive. An ordinary electric car cost as much as 10 to 20 times that of a gasoline-run car. On top of that, there are other issues. A gasoline-run car can be refueled in less than 2 minutes. But it takes up to 6 hours to fully charge an electric run car. Another thing is that, once charged, the electric cars can travel only 200 to 250 km. By then they needs recharged again.
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February 19, 2016, 06:13:31 PM
 #5

The sums don't add up for me. Should I buy a brand new Tesla that has sucked up vast amount of fresh metals and chemicals or a crappy 10 year old diesel? Even if I ran it for two centuries it would probably have less impact.
aardvark15
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February 19, 2016, 10:47:01 PM
 #6

One reason why electric cars are so expensive is that the technology is still new and being developed.  Internal combustion engines have been around a lot longer.  New technologies like electric and other will get cheaper.  Sometimes newer technologies need to be subsidized in order to keep the price down while it's in development.  The problem is that oil is still being subsidized, so noting else can compete, plus the Kochs want to fight it.
yugo23
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February 19, 2016, 11:29:20 PM
 #7

The sums don't add up for me. Should I buy a brand new Tesla that has sucked up vast amount of fresh metals and chemicals or a crappy 10 year old diesel? Even if I ran it for two centuries it would probably have less impact.

The important is to give it some times and let the technology develop itself. It's still rather new.
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February 19, 2016, 11:30:26 PM
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Electric cars are insanely expensive. An ordinary electric car cost as much as 10 to 20 times that of a gasoline-run car. On top of that, there are other issues. A gasoline-run car can be refueled in less than 2 minutes. But it takes up to 6 hours to fully charge an electric run car. Another thing is that, once charged, the electric cars can travel only 200 to 250 km. By then they needs recharged again.

And it costs nothing to recharge doesn't pollute and doesn't make any sound. It's all a question of pros and cons, and yeah for now electric cars can't really compete, but it's fucking new while diesel technology exists since 1900's!
tvbcof
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February 20, 2016, 01:41:44 AM
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Electric cars are insanely expensive. An ordinary electric car cost as much as 10 to 20 times that of a gasoline-run car. On top of that, there are other issues. A gasoline-run car can be refueled in less than 2 minutes. But it takes up to 6 hours to fully charge an electric run car. Another thing is that, once charged, the electric cars can travel only 200 to 250 km. By then they needs recharged again.

And it costs nothing to recharge doesn't pollute and doesn't make any sound. It's all a question of pros and cons, and yeah for now electric cars can't really compete, but it's fucking new while diesel technology exists since 1900's!

I'd gladly drive an electric car if it worked for my needs, and I expect that eventually they will.  I have a truck which I use when I need to, but drive my small car when I can.  A self-driving car would be even better.  This has nothing to do with the phony-baloney global warming fraud, peak oil fear-mongering, or the idea that it 'costs nothing' (which means that someone else is picking up the tab to subsidize your own lazy ass.)

I would rather the necessary R&D happened organically rather than through coercive and cronyist taxes on fuel and what-not.  If it takes longer for developments to occur without this extra money (which politicians and their sponsors inevitably use as a giant slush-fund) that just means that there is no really significant need for a solution in the near term.  In the mean time, internal combustion engines are totally fine with me to.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
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February 20, 2016, 04:28:23 AM
 #10

I'm afraid it's too late for them to take such evasive measures.
A smarter move would be to take action and get in front of the development while things are just at the beginning.
Because soon there won't be any fossil fuels left and electric cars will be the future.

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February 20, 2016, 05:31:41 AM
 #11

Well as long a Buffet has Obama's ear and is able to put all his trains to use there is going to be no breakthrough on the electric "front".  Old industry beats new with "old ways".
bryant.coleman
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February 20, 2016, 06:30:51 AM
 #12

And it costs nothing to recharge doesn't pollute and doesn't make any sound. It's all a question of pros and cons, and yeah for now electric cars can't really compete, but it's fucking new while diesel technology exists since 1900's!

I hope that in the future the technology will become more inexpensive. Around 40% to 45% of the overall cost of the electric car is taken up by the battery. Another 35% is taken up by the inverter. Unless these two components get cheaper, the electric cars will never become popular. And I am skeptical about this. The Lithium prices are increasing, which means that the cost of the battery is unlikely to go down anytime soon.
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February 20, 2016, 06:39:54 AM
 #13

The tech is about to make a huge jump when tesla releases the new battery.
I saw recently guys that just install charging stations in homes. My power is maxed and think most older homes are in the same boat. Reason they are also working on power in the home.
Still a ways out I think.

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February 20, 2016, 04:35:14 PM
 #14

Tesla is actually not able to sell cars in some states because of the lobbying of the car dealers.  Cars can only be sold through dealer in some states.  Tesla doesn't have any dealers (middle man) they just sell directly from the company.  So they have a disadvantage compared to the major car companies.
bryant.coleman
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February 20, 2016, 05:00:40 PM
 #15

Tesla is actually not able to sell cars in some states because of the lobbying of the car dealers.  Cars can only be sold through dealer in some states.  Tesla doesn't have any dealers (middle man) they just sell directly from the company.  So they have a disadvantage compared to the major car companies.

There is hardly any demand for Tesla cars in states such as North Dakota and Nebraska, where the gasoline is very cheap. Tesla vehicles are sold without any issues in the major states such as Texas, California and New York. Who cares about the minor states? If someone in North Dakota is very interested in purchasing a Tesla, then he can travel to Wisconsin and purchase the car from there.
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February 20, 2016, 05:01:50 PM
 #16




Supercharging More Electric Cars Risks Crashing the Grid—Here’s What Might Help





Tesla claims to be the fastest on the planet, but BMW touts that it can go from 0 to 80 in less than half an hour. The electric car makers aren’t bragging about miles per hour—they’re touting percent battery charge.

The race for fast-charging stations is on: Tesla has more than 100 of these supercharger stations in North America. Both Oregon and Washington have invested in direct-current fast chargers (such as BMW’s) every 25 to 50 miles along their “West Coast Electric Highway,” one of the largest continuous networks of fast chargers on the continent. And thus technology has begun to clear a great hurdle to adopting the electric vehicle—the inconvenience of long charge times.

Factor in new legislation—such as California Gov. Jerry Brown’s Zero-Emission Vehicle Action Plan, an executive order designed to boost the state’s number of fully electric vehicles from a few hundred thousand to 1.5 million by 2025—and we can expect a new wave of electric vehicles to dart in within the decade, if not sooner.

There’s just one problem: Our electrical grids might not be ready.

The average California household uses energy at a rate of less than 1 kilowatt* (amounting to 19 kilowatt hours per day, according to the U.S. Energy Information Association). BMW’s new direct-current supercharger charges at a rate of 24 kilowatts, which seems like a lot until you realize that BMW’s charger is small potatoes compared to most DC fast chargers, which hover around 50 kilowatts. And Tesla? Tesla’s superchargers come in at a whopping 120 kilowatts.

Supercharged vehicles haven’t used more energy to charge—they’ve just used it faster. When it comes to the grid, that’s a huge difference, because timing is everything.

Scott Moura is an assistant professor in civil and environmental engineering at UC Berkeley, and a proponent of “smart cities”: urban centers that coordinate among their infrastructures. Traditionally, Moura says, cities’ electric and transportation grids remain separate, but with the advent of electric vehicles, the networks are “colliding.” The collision couldn’t be clearer than Moura’s example of a supercharging Tesla coming online, which he says would “feel” to the grid as if 120 houses came online for only half an hour. “It’s like an entire neighborhood popping up in the middle of a city, and then disappearing,” he says.

Even when electric-vehicle owners charge their cars at a much slower rate of 6 or 7 kilowatts per hour overnight, that can still be a problem. The demand for energy is spiking each evening just as electric vehicles typically roll in to charge, and just when the source of solar power is setting. If demand spikes too high in an EV-smitten zip code (cough, Silicon Valley), its transformers, built to handle modest residential loads, may blow out.

We’ve known what this might look like for a while now: In 2011, the Utilities Telecom Council trade group released a report highlighting the exponential rise in energy use that will come with the widespread adoption of electric vehicles. Gigaom, a blog dedicated to “humanizing technology,” followed up by painting a picture of “blown transformers (and) neighborhood blackouts” from mass electric-vehicle charging. The article noted that the electrical utility giant PG&E had flagged plug-in zealous Berkeley as a “hot spot” that may be vulnerable to grid overload.

This hardly means we shouldn’t give the green light to green cars, which do move us away from dependence on fossil fuels. But they also present a problem: If California is going to go for 1.5 million of them by 2025, we need to know what to expect, and crucially, where and when to expect it.

This is where Alexei Pozdnoukhov comes in. Pozdnoukhov, like Moura, works at Cal in smart cities research. He directs UC Berkeley’s Smart Cities Research Center, where a research initiative called the Smart Bay Project may provide us with the crucial information to prevent an electric-grid meltdown.


http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-11-05/supercharging-more-electric-cars-risks-crashing-grid-heres


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February 20, 2016, 05:09:27 PM
Last edit: February 21, 2016, 04:13:01 AM by Spendulus
 #17

One reason why electric cars are so expensive is that the technology is still new and being developed.  Internal combustion engines have been around a lot longer.  New technologies like electric and other will get cheaper.  Sometimes newer technologies need to be subsidized in order to keep the price down while it's in development.  The problem is that oil is still being subsidized, so noting else can compete, plus the Kochs want to fight it.

What is an absolute fact is that the electric golf cart I have is the worst vehicle ever.  EVER!  

That includes boats, lawnmowers, cars of all sorts, motorcycles....

Nobody will dispute this that has owned one of the damn things.  Even the worst starry eyed green fanatic.

When an electric golf car gets reasonably good, we can talk about electric cars.  

Electric cars are the horseless carriages of hell itself.
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February 21, 2016, 11:49:27 AM
 #18

Quote
Tesla that has sucked up vast amount of fresh metals and chemicals or

But it takes up to 6 hours to fully charge an electric run car.



check  "smart fortwo electric drive"

Whit a "wallbox" this is charged in 1 hour.

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February 21, 2016, 02:54:20 PM
Last edit: February 21, 2016, 03:04:53 PM by Spendulus
 #19

Quote
Tesla that has sucked up vast amount of fresh metals and chemicals or

But it takes up to 6 hours to fully charge an electric run car.



check  "smart fortwo electric drive"

Whit a "wallbox" this is charged in 1 hour.

My Smartcar charges with gasoline.  In 3 minutes.

And why in the world would anyone want to take a car that gets some 35 miles per gallon and turn it electric?

This destroys the good points of the Smartcar.  It takes a low cost commuter vehicle, (less than 20k USD) with a couple hundred miles range and extremely good gas mileage, and turns it into an expensive commuter vehicle with terrible range.

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February 21, 2016, 02:59:04 PM
 #20

Gas and oil will go out soon and people must think an prepare for the alternatives. Why they fight electric vehicles althought investing in it have a promising future
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