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Author Topic: The Kochs Are Plotting A Multimillion-Dollar Assault On Electric Vehicles  (Read 1797 times)
Spendulus
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February 21, 2016, 03:07:30 PM
 #21

Gas and oil will go out soon and people must think an prepare for the alternatives. Why they fight electric vehicles althought investing in it have a promising future
Peak oil theories seem to have all been disproved.  Regardless, there are many, many other fuels.  Methane, butane, propane, (natural gas), methanol, ethanol come to mind.    There is a huge convenience in LIQUID FUELS because of transport and storage considerations.
blackbird307
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February 21, 2016, 03:21:32 PM
 #22

I remember 2 years ago reading an article about a 17 year old Indian girl that that developed a new type of battery that would charge in 30 seconds. Haven't heard anything about it since. I don't know if the project was destroyed by interested parties or it's being developed.

Also there are a number of alternative fuels. A friend once asked me what alternatives are for gasoline. Well - gasoline is an alternative. When the first vehicle was developed they used ethanol if I'm not mistaken. Any liquid that can burn can be used as fuel. Again - if I'm not mistaken.

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February 21, 2016, 03:28:13 PM
 #23

I remember 2 years ago reading an article about a 17 year old Indian girl that that developed a new type of battery that would charge in 30 seconds. Haven't heard anything about it since. I don't know if the project was destroyed by interested parties or it's being developed.

Also there are a number of alternative fuels. A friend once asked me what alternatives are for gasoline. Well - gasoline is an alternative. When the first vehicle was developed they used ethanol if I'm not mistaken. Any liquid that can burn can be used as fuel. Again - if I'm not mistaken.

The fifth largest used industrial chemical is methanol, and it is available today in huge quantities, enough to run all cars in big cities.  Think in terms of buying it not by 18 wheel truck loads, but by ocean barge loads.  Modern cars will run methanol with a few changes to seals and tubing.

However, methanol use is not amendable to corruption, so it's use is not considered.  Preferred are things like massive wind farms, corn ethanol, huge solar installations, because they create entire ecologies of corruption, bribery and wealth.
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February 21, 2016, 03:46:28 PM
 #24

Exactly. It's not about that we won't have fuel. It's about the right people making the most money that they can out of it.

bryant.coleman
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February 21, 2016, 04:09:50 PM
 #25

Quote
Tesla that has sucked up vast amount of fresh metals and chemicals or

But it takes up to 6 hours to fully charge an electric run car.



check  "smart fortwo electric drive"

Whit a "wallbox" this is charged in 1 hour.

The "Smart for Two" vehicle is more like a two-wheeler than a car. It has a range of only 90 or 100 km. You need to charge the battery after every 100 km. Also, it is having a maximum capacity for two people, compared to 8 for an SUV. I am afraid that you will not be able to directly compare electric and gasoline-run vehicles, at least for the next two decades.
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February 21, 2016, 04:20:34 PM
 #26

I never understood where all that energy is coming from when recharging all those EVs... Free air? Wind? Nuclear?


Or good ol' petrol?




And coal.




Electric cars are insanely expensive. An ordinary electric car cost as much as 10 to 20 times that of a gasoline-run car. On top of that, there are other issues. A gasoline-run car can be refueled in less than 2 minutes. But it takes up to 6 hours to fully charge an electric run car. Another thing is that, once charged, the electric cars can travel only 200 to 250 km. By then they needs recharged again.



And the batteries only last a few years.  Replacing the battery will cost more than the used car is worth. 




One reason why electric cars are so expensive is that the technology is still new and being developed.  Internal combustion engines have been around a lot longer.  New technologies like electric and other will get cheaper.


It's been "new" and "will get cheaper and better" for the past 20 years. 



Quote
Sometimes newer technologies need to be subsidized in order to keep the price down while it's in development.


Successful technologies pay for themselves.  Hybrids are a dead end.  "Cash for Clunkers" destroyed wealth.





And it costs nothing to recharge doesn't pollute and doesn't make any sound.



It costs just as much to recharge, or more.  And power plants do pollute.





I'd gladly drive an electric car if it worked for my needs, and I expect that eventually they will.  I have a truck which I use when I need to, but drive my small car when I can.  A self-driving car would be even better.  This has nothing to do with the phony-baloney global warming fraud, peak oil fear-mongering, or the idea that it 'costs nothing' (which means that someone else is picking up the tab to subsidize your own lazy ass.)

I would rather the necessary R&D happened organically rather than through coercive and cronyist taxes on fuel and what-not.  If it takes longer for developments to occur without this extra money (which politicians and their sponsors inevitably use as a giant slush-fund) that just means that there is no really significant need for a solution in the near term.  In the mean time, internal combustion engines are totally fine with me to.


Exactly!  Anytime someone tries to sell you something because it's "green" or "good for the planet", it means you're paying too much for an inferior product.  Like water bottles with plastic so thin that the bottle doesn't stand up straight "because they're using less plastic" - they're saving 50% on the cost of materials, but they're still charging you the same price for the bottle of water.  If it was cheaper, that would be a reason to buy it.  But they want you to pay more for less.



Because soon there won't be any fossil fuels left and electric cars will be the future.


Soon?  Before we run out of coal and petroleum and propane,
we'll run out of lithium for the batteries,
and uranium for nuclear power plants.
Then we'll still have to burn fossil fuels to run our cars.




There’s just one problem: Our electrical grids might not be ready.
...
The collision couldn’t be clearer than Moura’s example of a supercharging Tesla coming online, which he says would “feel” to the grid as if 120 houses came online for only half an hour. “It’s like an entire neighborhood popping up in the middle of a city, and then disappearing,” he says.

Even when electric-vehicle owners charge their cars at a much slower rate of 6 or 7 kilowatts per hour overnight, that can still be a problem. The demand for energy is spiking each evening just as electric vehicles typically roll in to charge, and just when the source of solar power is setting. If demand spikes too high in an EV-smitten zip code (cough, Silicon Valley), its transformers, built to handle modest residential loads, may blow out.



So it's still impossible for everyone to drive electric cars, even if they were given the cars for free.




Tesla claims to be the fastest on the planet, but BMW touts that it can go from 0 to 80 in less than half an hour. The electric car makers aren’t bragging about miles per hour—they’re touting percent battery charge.

The race for fast-charging stations is on


And the race towards exploding car batteries.

People have already died from exploding cellphone batteries, so imagine a battery 1,000 larger. 




When an electric golf car gets reasonably good, we can talk about electric cars.  

Electric cars are the horseless carriages of hell itself.


Good point - cars failed at being "a carriage without a horse".
They had to be something much better before they were successful.
If people wanted to keep driving something slow and smelly, they kept their horses.
The world doesn't throw away everything and replace it with something new, just because it's there.

Electric cars have failed at being "a gas-powered car without gas".
We already have gas-powered cars.
Even if electric cars become equal in every way,
why would we switch to something that just does the same thing as what we already have?

Electric cars will have to be much better than the cars we already have, or they will fail.




My Smartcar charges with gasoline.  In 3 minutes.

And why in the world would anyone want to take a car that gets some 35 miles per gallon and turn it electric?

This destroys the good points of the Smartcar.  It takes a low cost commuter vehicle, (less than 20k USD) with a couple hundred miles range and extremely good gas mileage, and turns it into an expensive commuter vehicle with terrible range.


Isn't the Smartcar smaller (less useful) and more expensive, with worse mileage, than other vehicles that already exist but aren't marketed as "smart"?

They cut the size and weight of a car in half without improving the mileage at all, so the Smartcar is actually less efficient and has worse technology.

Smartcar might be perfect for someone who drives alone and likes to park easily anywhere at all.  And it's safer than a motorcycle. But it's not going to save the world from fossil fuels.

Just like the Prius, they want to sell people on a lie.  They think if people will buy a car because it's "smart", then they'll buy even faster if it's "smarter with electric".


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bryant.coleman
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February 21, 2016, 04:32:25 PM
 #27

Soon?  Before we run out of coal and petroleum and propane,
we'll run out of lithium for the batteries,
and uranium for nuclear power plants.
Then we'll still have to burn fossil fuels to run our cars.

This is very worrisome. I am already hearing reports about the depletion of the Lithium reserves. There are so few electric cars around, and still they use a large chunk of the Lithium available. This insanity must stop. Lithium is not like Iron Ore or Coal. It occurs in very limited quantities, and once you waste all of the deposits for batteries, then there will be no other alternative for the metal.
blackbird307
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February 21, 2016, 04:34:31 PM
 #28

There must be batteries that do not use lithium. It can't be the only type of battery that exists.

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February 21, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
 #29

Exactly. It's not about that we won't have fuel. It's about the right people making the most money that they can out of it.

If you've already consolidated most of the global fossil fuel reserves, would you like the price that end-users pay to be:

  a) higher
  b) lower

Generally speaking, 'austerity' helps achieve the 'a)' selection whether one is talking food, energy, health care, intellectual property, etc, etc.  We can expect to see a lot more of it as earth moves toward toward a more 'globalized' form with multi-national corporations consolidating control of all means of production and a more centralized power structure dictating global operation.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
bryant.coleman
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February 21, 2016, 04:58:08 PM
 #30

There must be batteries that do not use lithium. It can't be the only type of battery that exists.

There are a several types of rechargeable batteries. But Lithium batteries are the best.

For example, Lithium–titanate batteries are having a power capacity of 4,000 W per Kg (or 4 KWh per Kg). The same for a Lithium-ion polymer battery is 3 KWh per kg and for a Thin film lithium battery the power capacity is 6 KWh per kg.

The others can't even come close. The Lead–acid battery is having a power capacity of 0.18 KWh per kg.

Tesla and Nissan leaf uses the lithium-ion battery, because the thin film lithium battery is very very expensive.
designerusa
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February 21, 2016, 05:05:16 PM
 #31

Gas and oil will go out soon and people must think an prepare for the alternatives. Why they fight electric vehicles althought investing in it have a promising future

i share same ideas with you.. oil and gas giants must invest on renewable energy and any other energy resources for their future.. because oil and gas reserves will run out off soon.. they should stop whining...
blackbird307
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February 21, 2016, 05:18:36 PM
 #32

I know this is just talking but I'm sure they'll discover new and better batteries soon.

salinizm
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February 21, 2016, 06:25:10 PM
 #33

Exactly. It's not about that we won't have fuel. It's about the right people making the most money that they can out of it.

we wont have any fuel in the near future .. you are totally wrong..

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bryant.coleman
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February 21, 2016, 06:48:28 PM
 #34

I know this is just talking but I'm sure they'll discover new and better batteries soon.

We have tried all the available permutations and combinations using various chemicals and metals. If you want newer batteries, then I am afraid that you might need to travel to the Andromeda galaxy, to bring minerals and metals which does not exist in the solar system. The Lithium-ion battery was invented in 1973. More than 4 decades have passed and we are still using it.
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February 21, 2016, 07:58:40 PM
 #35

And it costs nothing to recharge doesn't pollute and doesn't make any sound. It's all a question of pros and cons, and yeah for now electric cars can't really compete, but it's fucking new while diesel technology exists since 1900's!

I hope that in the future the technology will become more inexpensive. Around 40% to 45% of the overall cost of the electric car is taken up by the battery. Another 35% is taken up by the inverter. Unless these two components get cheaper, the electric cars will never become popular. And I am skeptical about this. The Lithium prices are increasing, which means that the cost of the battery is unlikely to go down anytime soon.

Everyone dumping their oil now while there's still demand, lithium is the new oil.
Spendulus
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February 22, 2016, 12:14:05 AM
 #36

I know this is just talking but I'm sure they'll discover new and better batteries soon.

We have tried all the available permutations and combinations using various chemicals and metals. If you want newer batteries, then I am afraid that you might need to travel to the Andromeda galaxy, to bring minerals and metals which does not exist in the solar system. The Lithium-ion battery was invented in 1973. More than 4 decades have passed and we are still using it.

False.  Continual improvements in lithium batteries and other types.  Often by incorporating nano techniques.

Little relation between the 1973 lithium battery and those in common use now.

No metals in other galaxies that are not here. Bounded by periodic table.

Any minerals that exist somewhere else can be fabricated here.
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February 22, 2016, 07:16:27 AM
 #37

Lithium can be found from asteroids near Earth. It's not going to be depleted.
bryant.coleman
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February 22, 2016, 10:05:23 AM
 #38

Lithium can be found from asteroids near Earth. It's not going to be depleted.

Hmmm... really? A space launch can cost anywhere from $450 million to $500 million. Even if you are able to collect a tonne of Lithium from the asteroids (I am not even asking how), do you think that the car-makers are going to buy this Lithium at a price of $500,000 per kg? Imagine how much will be the cost of a Tesla, if they do so. (An average Tesla uses around 14 Kg of Lithium for a single 85 KWh battery).
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February 22, 2016, 11:25:39 AM
 #39

You guys are behind in battery science.

Look up nano tech and paper batteries!
In around a decade it will be ready to be mass produced for industrial scale.



Lithium can be found from asteroids near Earth. It's not going to be depleted.

Hmmm... really? A space launch can cost anywhere from $450 million to $500 million. Even if you are able to collect a tonne of Lithium from the asteroids (I am not even asking how), do you think that the car-makers are going to buy this Lithium at a price of $500,000 per kg? Imagine how much will be the cost of a Tesla, if they do so. (An average Tesla uses around 14 Kg of Lithium for a single 85 KWh battery).

Space flight will cost exponentially less in the future with private companies and new technolgies.
Like the reason nasa outspurces to spaceX etc.

Space mining will be done for sure just a question of time and effiency.

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February 22, 2016, 04:58:03 PM
 #40

Tesla is working on a better battery right now and think they are spending more time on that then the car.
Its most likely at best 5 years out still after it goes through all the hoops of testing.
That girl most likely has sold here idea to Tesla or a like minded group to fiddle with.

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