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Author Topic: What is Consensus?  (Read 2335 times)
GermanGiant (OP)
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February 21, 2016, 05:14:19 PM
 #1

After reading the counter arguments in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1371359.0, this question is haunting me to the 'core'.

p.s. If we agree to https://bitcointalk.org/dec/p1.html, we did not reach any consensus yesterday.
Albert Hamilton
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February 21, 2016, 06:04:51 PM
 #2

The whole https://www.reddit.com/r/btc & https://forum.bitcoin.com/ are now asking for this answer.
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February 21, 2016, 09:02:55 PM
 #3


Don't be exaggerating over the title of the thread.

That roundtable achieved 'agreement among majority of miners' not general consensus.

If majority of nodes/merchants/users was strongly against proposed steps, then the miners would be forced to adjust.

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owm123
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February 21, 2016, 11:26:08 PM
 #4


Don't be exaggerating over the title of the thread.

That roundtable achieved 'agreement among majority of miners' not general consensus.

If majority of nodes/merchants/users was strongly against proposed steps, then the miners would be forced to adjust.

Nope they would not. Miners control hashing power, thus security of bitcoin. Everyone will follow them.

Bitcoin is NOT anonymous: http://www.bitcoinisnotanonymous.com
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February 21, 2016, 11:46:26 PM
Last edit: February 22, 2016, 12:01:31 AM by Lauda
 #5

Consensus with Bitcoin can not be compared to consensus in the old systems. It should not be considered a pre-defined majority. Consensus should be near universal agreement.

The whole https://www.reddit.com/r/btc & https://forum.bitcoin.com/ are now asking for this answer.
Please stop participating in such places. If the meeting decided on supporting Classic, everyone would be celebrating how consensus was reached and everyone agreed. The bias of those people (or shills?) is amazing. Roll Eyes

Nope they would not. Miners control hashing power, thus security of bitcoin. Everyone will follow them.
It is the other way around. Their coins would be worthless without everyone else and switching to a new chain without consensus would cause extreme loses.

That roundtable achieved 'agreement among majority of miners' not general consensus.
This. Core has to provide a HF proposal for a block size increase between April and July. If there is consensus for it, then it will be implemented and activated sometime in 2017.


Update: My statement is false here (thanks theymos). The individuals who took part in the meeting have to present a proposal.

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February 21, 2016, 11:57:22 PM
 #6

If majority of nodes/merchants/users was strongly against proposed steps, then the miners would be forced to adjust.
Exactly Smiley

The network of users (who accept the token to use it) is giving to it the value, not miners alone.

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theymos
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February 21, 2016, 11:59:53 PM
 #7

p.s. If we agree to https://bitcointalk.org/dec/p1.html, we did not reach any consensus yesterday.

Right. Despite the hype, yesterday's meeting definitely doesn't constitute the widespread consensus required to do a hardfork. That sort of consensus doesn't occur in meeting rooms. However, the meeting was a constructive step toward a hardfork. A few notable experts and Core devs put forward a plan which I agree should be sufficiently non-controversial to actually get consensus once they write the code for it and present it to the community. (Note that they will not be releasing binary implementations of their changes prior to real consensus.)

Core has to provide a HF proposal for a block size increase between April and July.

The people at the meeting pledged as individuals to write code for this and present it to Core and the community for consideration. They were not speaking for the other Core devs.

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VeritasSapere
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February 22, 2016, 01:09:58 AM
 #8

After reading the counter arguments in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1371359.0, this question is haunting me to the 'core'.

p.s. If we agree to https://bitcointalk.org/dec/p1.html, we did not reach any consensus yesterday.
It is good to keep in mind that consensus amongst large groups of people is impossible. Consensus is the name we have given to the governance mechanism of Bitcoin, which is very different to the literal meaning of the word.

Quote from: VeritasSapere
Consensus is an emergent property which flows from the will of the economic majority. Proof of work is the best way to measure this consensus. The pools act as proxy for the miners, pools behave in a similar way to representatives within a representative democracy. Then in turn the miners act as a proxy for the economic majority. Since the miners are incentivized to follow the economic majority. In effect the economic majority rules Bitcoin, in other words the market rules Bitcoin. Bitcoin relies on the economic self-interest of the masses to govern consensus.
CounterEntropy
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February 29, 2016, 04:59:13 PM
 #9

Right. Despite the hype, yesterday's meeting definitely doesn't constitute the widespread consensus required to do a hardfork. That sort of consensus doesn't occur in meeting rooms. However, the meeting was a constructive step toward a hardfork. A few notable experts and Core devs put forward a plan which I agree should be sufficiently non-controversial to actually get consensus once they write the code for it and present it to the community. (Note that they will not be releasing binary implementations of their changes prior to real consensus.)
Do you think real consensus is just the mining majority or holder's majority as well ? What is your opinion about proposals like this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373985.0 ?
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February 29, 2016, 06:31:26 PM
 #10

Consensus is when the super majority agree, anything else is bullshit. Thanks to requring a super majority, we have been saved from teh disaster that Bitcoin Classic is, and instead we have the Core devs on charge where all the real stuff happens. gmaxwell just announced ZKCP recently, proving again that they are the better team. /r/btc and bitcoin.com are just troll centers at this point (and a bunch of new people that search "Bitcoin" on google and end up there).
RealBitcoin
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February 29, 2016, 08:44:28 PM
 #11

I`d say over 85% agreement.

Democracy sucks with 50%+1 because most elections are always around that with 55-52% majority. That is not a democracy, it sucks.


It should be at least 85%, but better towards 90%....



Do you want to be fat and ugly? No? Say 99% of people vote NO to that. That is a consensus Cheesy

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February 29, 2016, 08:59:32 PM
 #12


Democracy sucks with 50%+1 because most elections are always around that with 55-52% majority. That is not a democracy, it sucks.


Hardly. In your average election you might get 30-40% turnout if you're lucky. If you throw in a first past the post system then that skews it even further. Someone calculated that a 'majority' government in the UK attracted 12% of the nation's potential votes.
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February 29, 2016, 09:14:14 PM
 #13


Yes because in democracy by not showing up to vote, your vote is ignored and those that do show up, namely socialists who vote for more welfare, get to govern your country.


That particular election brought in a right wing government. And there's no shortage of welfare haters too. In the UK at least, I dunno about elsewhere, the elderly are by far the most committed voters and we all know that most don't tend to become more liberal as the years go by.

But yes, it's all junk. The real power players never get voted in and never change.
theymos
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March 01, 2016, 02:50:57 AM
 #14

Do you think real consensus is just the mining majority or holder's majority as well ? What is your opinion about proposals like this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373985.0 ?

Quote from: satoshi
Before strong encryption, users had to rely on password protection to secure their files, placing trust in the system administrator to keep their information private. Privacy could always be overridden by the admin based on his judgment call weighing the principle of privacy against other concerns, or at the behest of his superiors. Then strong encryption became available to the masses, and trust was no longer required. Data could be secured in a way that was physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter what.

It's time we had the same thing for money. With e-currency based on cryptographic proof, without the need to trust a third party middleman, money can be secure and transactions effortless.

Bitcoin is about individual sovereignty, not rule by a majority of miners, nodes, users, bitcoins, or whatever. If you use a full node, then you will absolutely reject no matter what any blocks or transactions that create too many bitcoins, or spend bitcoins without a valid signature, or double-spend outputs, or exceed the limits. This extreme resistance to change within the core rules is Bitcoin's primary advantage over all other money, and the only reason bitcoins have any value at all is because people can rely on these core rules not to be changeable by some external force.

If you want a currency backed by democracy, there are a number of democratic countries with currencies you can use.

A hardfork should proceed only if there is no significant opposition. In a contentious hardfork:

 - Bitcoin is split into two pieces, which is extremely damaging to Bitcoin.
 - There is an attempt to coerce people who want to stick with the core consensus rules they originally agreed to into abandoning these rules.

If a sufficient degree of agreement can be had, then I'm fine with hardforks otherwise. The hardfork proposal that BlueMatt et al. will present later this year as a result of their Hong Kong agreement might be uncontroversial enough to get sufficient agreement.

In any case, however, almost all hardforks can be done as softforks instead. SegWit is one example of increasing capacity without a hardfork, and in a very non-disruptive way. A hardfork would in many cases be cleaner, but if it ends up being the case that sufficient consensus is basically impossible to achieve in most cases, the prospect of relying entirely on softforks doesn't worry me at all. Possibly, hardfork-type changes in Bitcoin will almost always be done first as a softfork, and then the softfork will be made simpler and more efficient in an uncontroversial hardfork later. (Sidechains would allow for doing this in a particularly clean way.)

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March 01, 2016, 05:22:56 PM
 #15

Consensus is when the super majority agree, anything else is bullshit. Thanks to requring a super majority, we have been saved from teh disaster that Bitcoin Classic is, and instead we have the Core devs on charge where all the real stuff happens. gmaxwell just announced ZKCP recently, proving again that they are the better team. /r/btc and bitcoin.com are just troll centers at this point (and a bunch of new people that search "Bitcoin" on google and end up there).
thanks for explain,now i know what is consensus,but i want to ask something,what the main benefit of this consensus for us as bitcoin holder?

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March 24, 2016, 11:07:25 AM
 #16

If a sufficient degree of agreement can be had, then I'm fine with hardforks otherwise. The hardfork proposal that BlueMatt et al. will present later this year as a result of their Hong Kong agreement might be uncontroversial enough to get sufficient agreement.
But, the problem I see here is how do u define that something is uncontroversial? Can u claim a sufficient degree of agreement depending on some closed door agreement and some people cheering on some internet discussion forum? Dont u think there needs to be a well defined mathematical way to define Consensus in terms of bitcoin? The proposal I pointed in previous post seems to be addressing this problem.
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March 24, 2016, 12:33:53 PM
 #17

The whole https://www.reddit.com/r/btc & https://forum.bitcoin.com/ are now asking for this answer.

Those sites are full of paid Classic shills and average joes that have absolutely no say in a matter as complex as scaling Bitcoin. It's sad that those places have become a trollfest. /r/btc started as a way to talk about everything Bitcoin including the hard fork attempts, and it has ended up a total mess.
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April 03, 2016, 07:47:24 PM
 #18

The whole https://www.reddit.com/r/btc & https://forum.bitcoin.com/ are now asking for this answer.

Those sites are full of paid Classic shills and average joes that have absolutely no say in a matter as complex as scaling Bitcoin. It's sad that those places have become a trollfest. /r/btc started as a way to talk about everything Bitcoin including the hard fork attempts, and it has ended up a total mess.
Both https://www.reddit.com/r/btc & https://forum.bitcoin.com/ are owned by Roger Ver, one of the biggest bitcoin holder. Why such a big holder himself will hurt bitcoin in the first place? If u go by rationality, he would try to increase the value of bitcoin.
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April 04, 2016, 02:01:21 AM
 #19

Consensus is what Blockstream says it is. As long as they can soft fork in their restructuring of Bitcoin... joe user will not cannot care.

With a handful of chinese dudes (that don't want to rock the boat) holding the door open, it's full steam ahead. Theymos can handle the optics.
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April 04, 2016, 02:11:57 AM
 #20

Both https://www.reddit.com/r/btc & https://forum.bitcoin.com/ are owned by Roger Ver, one of the biggest bitcoin holder. Why such a big holder himself will hurt bitcoin in the first place? If u go by rationality, he would try to increase the value of bitcoin.

This guy makes a valid point.
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