Stopping gift card money laundering

[Quickseller]

I would say a possible way to prevent money laundering via Gift Cards on this forum would be to apply (and enforce) this rule to sellers of gift cards.

If prior reputation is required before someone can start selling Gift Cards then gift card sellers will have an incentive to not sell laundered/stolen gift cards because doing so would damage their reputation.

[Heutenamos]

And yes , thanks for linking.

In many countries, terms of service are not legally binding. Traders can figure out their own legal risks. The forum will not enforce terms of service.

[shorena]

for a lack of evidence.

It means that whatever you do could be wrong,cause its based on ?
-snip-

There is always room for error.

Opinion is commonly used when evidence is absent. I think it was already established in this thread that its difficult to find the line between someone selling legit cards at a discount and someone not. Is it 50% discount or 48.7548%?

Opinions should not be used when deciding to leave negative trust, as for the majority of people a single negative rating can essentially torpedo one's ability to conduct business around here. If you can't cite specific facts and if you cannot speak to why you left a negative rating then it is probably not a good idea to leave such negative rating in the first place.

See Vods crusade against MS keys. If anything it makes those wondering whether they should buy think. Which is the whole reason the ratings are left, to make the possible buyers think "can this be legit?".

I would argue Vod leaving negative ratings for MSDN key sellers will have the opposite effect. Potential MSDN key sellers know that all MSDN key sellers will have negative trust so they do not bother checking their trust profile and ignore their trust score. This has allowed multiple people to continue to scam even after having negative trust by selling MSDN keys that do not exist. There have been a number of scam accusations opened against people who received payment for MSDN keys and sent nothing in return and who previously had multiple trust reports saying they had scammed previously at the time payment was received. Normally, when someone starts a business they will initially have difficulty conducting business because they have no reputation, however as they have been in business longer, they will build up a reputation of trading honestly and if they want to maintain that reputation then they will need to not (try to) scam the people they do business with, however when everyone has negative trust ratings this is not possible.

So the solution is to just accept the fact that illegal goods are traded here and be done with it? I know I argued that MS keys are legal to sell in some circumstances/juristictions and that the seller should not be flagged without a closer look. In the end though, even the "legit" (following your definition of "not scamming a user here") ones are breaking the law (at least in some countries). Same goes for gift cards[1]:

Your Amazon.com Balance cannot be used to purchase other gift cards. Gift Cards cannot be reloaded, resold...

The question is how liberal this forum wants to be and there are different views. That is why this topic is discussed here. Im perfectly fine with that. What I find troubling is the "abuse!" crys and the attacks against those newly added to DT. What am to think of this other than someone sees their business in danger and not someone that has good arguments and can defend with them, but someone that needs to use every possibily venue. I know that amazon gift cards or often the only way very poor people can earn. They do mechanical turk work, earn amazon points, trade them for gift cards and sell them at a discount for money that lets them buy food. Those will hardly sell them here directly.

I would say a possible way to prevent money laundering via Gift Cards on this forum would be to apply (and enforce) this rule to sellers of gift cards.

If prior reputation is required before someone can start selling Gift Cards then gift card sellers will have an incentive to not sell laundered/stolen gift cards because doing so would damage their reputation.

This may be a good solution and it might be the first compromise I have read in this regard. With account trades it would at the very least give gift card sellers the incentive to work honestly until they have paid off the account needed to conduct the sales in the first place. Its one rule that is rarely enforced by staff though and just because of that its probably not a solution at all. It would require staff to interfere with trades.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html%3FnodeId=3122091

Your critique seems to be the lack of evidence. Why is it a problem here, but not when ponzis are tagged? There is lack of evidence as well. Why are the two a problem, but I am not?

A ponzi is essentially a promise which is mathematically impossible to be kept. A ponzi is essentially a promise that if you give me $1 today, then I will give you $2 tomorrow with no limits as to how much total money I will accept. If I claim to somehow use this $1 and "invest" it for a day that somehow gives me >$1 in returns in that one day, then it is your responsibility to ask questions to debunk my claims if you wish to leave me a negative rating. Take these two threads for example (one, two), they were claiming to "invest" in altcoins/ect. so they were initially given the benefit of the doubt, however after questions were asked and research was done, it was determined they were in fact lying about not being a ponzi and were left negative trust.

Another good example is this in which the OP of this thread was offering ponzi-like returns, however was claiming that he was "investing" money sent to him by "investors" and when he was questioned about how he makes the money that he uses to pay the returns, he provided evidence (not proof) of legitimacy, and without significant evidence that would prove otherwise a negative rating is inappropriate in this case.  

I didnt know about "Delta Investment", they have a negative rating though.

[Your Point Is Invalid]

I would say a possible way to prevent money laundering via Gift Cards on this forum would be to apply (and enforce) this rule to sellers of gift cards.

If prior reputation is required before someone can start selling Gift Cards then gift card sellers will have an incentive to not sell laundered/stolen gift cards because doing so would damage their reputation.

This is not a rule, I've never seen this being enforced, also the points are too vague, who will be responsible for deciding if someone has enough history to trade here or even to trade in bulk?

[Zeke2345]

Think connecting who can sell giftcards to trust would be a mistake,turning trust into a currency.
Not something that is earned but something that opens doors to you and even paid for.

Want to be clear I have no issues with people that have opposing views and its great to get the lumps out of the pillows from time to time.
Often I suffer from wanting to stand up for people I feel may be getting a raw deal or are going to get it down the road. Something about this irks me to see people hunting people down. Know its for the better of the community but I wish there was a better way and more balanced approach.

Really scared that this forum will become a closed shop where backdoor deals are made and lower members are treated as peons.
If we force giftcarders into the back we also expose more new accounts to being scammed in private message land. Its clear new accounts are used
for selling giftcards now to protect established accounts from exposure.

[Quickseller]

Think connecting who can sell giftcards to trust would be a mistake,turning trust into a currency.
Not something that is earned but something that opens doors to you and even paid for.

Want to be clear I have no issues with people that have opposing views and its great to get the lumps out of the pillows from time to time.
Often I suffer from wanting to stand up for people I feel may be getting a raw deal or are going to get it down the road. Something about this irks me to see people hunting people down. Know its for the better of the community but I wish there was a better way and more balanced approach.

Really scared that this forum will become a closed shop where backdoor deals are made and lower members are treated as peons.
If we force giftcarders into the back we also expose more new accounts to being scammed in private message land. Its clear new accounts are used
for selling giftcards now to protect established accounts from exposure.

It is not about forcing gift cards to be sold via backroom PM deals, it is about making it more difficult to sell carded/stolen gift cards in the first place.

First of all, if negative trust is left for users who are selling what is clearly carded/stolen gift cards, then such deals will be done via PM/backrooms anyway.

Forcing users to first have some reputation prior to being able to create a [wts] thread that contains gift cards for sale will make it more difficult for people to sell a stolen/carded gift card because doing so will then risk the reputation of their existing reputation. If you assume that stolen/carded gift cards will eventually start to go "bad" then once there are credible reports of gift cards going bad that were sold by a particular seller, then that seller will lose his reputation and would likely be labeled a scammer.

In other words, my proposed rule would prevent people from creating accounts specifically for the reason to sell stolen gift cards. Gift Cards will still be sold/traded on the forum, it is just that they will be sold by reputable users who have more to lose when problems arise from such cards.

[Zeke2345]

Think connecting who can sell giftcards to trust would be a mistake,turning trust into a currency.
Not something that is earned but something that opens doors to you and even paid for.

Want to be clear I have no issues with people that have opposing views and its great to get the lumps out of the pillows from time to time.
Often I suffer from wanting to stand up for people I feel may be getting a raw deal or are going to get it down the road. Something about this irks me to see people hunting people down. Know its for the better of the community but I wish there was a better way and more balanced approach.

Really scared that this forum will become a closed shop where backdoor deals are made and lower members are treated as peons.
If we force giftcarders into the back we also expose more new accounts to being scammed in private message land. Its clear new accounts are used
for selling giftcards now to protect established accounts from exposure.

It is not about forcing gift cards to be sold via backroom PM deals, it is about making it more difficult to sell carded/stolen gift cards in the first place.

First of all, if negative trust is left for users who are selling what is clearly carded/stolen gift cards, then such deals will be done via PM/backrooms anyway.

Forcing users to first have some reputation prior to being able to create a [wts] thread that contains gift cards for sale will make it more difficult for people to sell a stolen/carded gift card because doing so will then risk the reputation of their existing reputation. If you assume that stolen/carded gift cards will eventually start to go "bad" then once there are credible reports of gift cards going bad that were sold by a particular seller, then that seller will lose his reputation and would likely be labeled a scammer.

In other words, my proposed rule would prevent people from creating accounts specifically for the reason to sell stolen gift cards. Gift Cards will still be sold/traded on the forum, it is just that they will be sold by reputable users who have more to lose when problems arise from such cards.

So the plan is more about the seller than the buyer.
Seems more in line with what a seller would want.

Basically we just stated the samething but used it for different angles. There will always be a market for cheap cards and eventually trust will mean little or actually help advertise a established carder. People will continue to sell because people are buying.
Just do not see it helping in the long run, unless you are moving towards full out ban.
You have more experience in this aspect though and maybe I am looking at it wrong. Maybe a poor job of making my point. :-D

[Quickseller]

I would argue Vod leaving negative ratings for MSDN key sellers will have the opposite effect. Potential MSDN key sellers know that all MSDN key sellers will have negative trust so they do not bother checking their trust profile and ignore their trust score. This has allowed multiple people to continue to scam even after having negative trust by selling MSDN keys that do not exist. There have been a number of scam accusations opened against people who received payment for MSDN keys and sent nothing in return and who previously had multiple trust reports saying they had scammed previously at the time payment was received. Normally, when someone starts a business they will initially have difficulty conducting business because they have no reputation, however as they have been in business longer, they will build up a reputation of trading honestly and if they want to maintain that reputation then they will need to not (try to) scam the people they do business with, however when everyone has negative trust ratings this is not possible.

So the solution is to just accept the fact that illegal goods are traded here and be done with it? I know I argued that MS keys are legal to sell in some circumstances/juristictions and that the seller should not be flagged without a closer look. In the end though, even the "legit" (following your definition of "not scamming a user here") ones are breaking the law (at least in some countries). Same goes for gift cards[1]:

Your Amazon.com Balance cannot be used to purchase other gift cards. Gift Cards cannot be reloaded, resold...

[1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html%3FnodeId=3122091

There are no laws (afaik) against (re)selling MSDN keys, nor gift cards. It is my understanding this is the case in the US and most of the "1st world" countries. The sale of gift cards and/or MSDN keys is against the TOS of various companies (eg of MSFT and of the issuers of the gift cards), and the forum does not view TOS as something that is enforceable as per the liberation views of theymos.

The violation of TOS is a civil issue and would likely be litigated as a "breach of contract". There are some situations in which the courts will not enforce a TOS (or a contract) for a variety of reasons, including, but not limited to, it is impossible to comply with the terms of the TOS, the TOS are too vague, the TOS conflicts with (most often) state law (could be federal and/or local law as well), the TOS attempts to compel a party to do something illegal, enforcing the TOS would be against public policy. (note: this also applies to contracts as well).

I believe that some state legislatures have passed legislation regarding gift cards, which may or may not include giving consumers the right to resell gift cards, and if this is the case then the section of the TOS that prohibits the resale of the gift card would be null and void (or the entire TOS if it does not have a clause that keeps the rest of the TOS in force if certain section(s) are found to be unenforceable).

There is also the point that MSFT (in the case of MSDN keys) and the issuers of the gift cards (in the case of gift cards) are the only ones who have standing to bring any kind of suit against people violating the TOS they entered into. It is very well possible that these entities would decide to ignore a TOS violation due to the cost of litigation is greater then what they can expect to recover, because brining this kind of litigation would create a negative public image or another reason.  This point does not apply to sellers of stolen/carded gift cards because this practice hurts the community (and society) as a while.

The question is how liberal this forum wants to be and there are different views.

In many countries, terms of service are not legally binding. Traders can figure out their own legal risks. The forum will not enforce terms of service.

See the above quote from theymos, the forum will not enforce terms of service

What I find troubling is the "abuse!" crys and the attacks against those newly added to DT.

I think this is off topic here, however some could argue that they are leaving negative trust for things that do not actually include things that would truly make someone a scammer, and some may think that if you were to get on their bad side then these new people in the DT network will look at your business dealings and will say that some part of your dealings does not fully comply with the law, is somehow wrong even though there was no claim of money being stolen, or some other made up reason to leave negative trust. One of the most ridiculous reasons I have seen them leave negative trust is because someone "tried to cheat a twitter campaign".

I would say a possible way to prevent money laundering via Gift Cards on this forum would be to apply (and enforce) this rule to sellers of gift cards.

If prior reputation is required before someone can start selling Gift Cards then gift card sellers will have an incentive to not sell laundered/stolen gift cards because doing so would damage their reputation.

This may be a good solution and it might be the first compromise I have read in this regard. With account trades it would at the very least give gift card sellers the incentive to work honestly until they have paid off the account needed to conduct the sales in the first place. Its one rule that is rarely enforced by staff though and just because of that its probably not a solution at all. It would require staff to interfere with trades.

It would not solve the problem, but it would put a large dent into the problem, maybe a large enough of a dent that the rest of the problem can work itself out. The rule should not be that people cannot sell gift cards without reputation, it should be that people cannot create threads advertising the sale of gift cards without reputation. I would say this rule would be less about interfering with trades, and more with enforcing what kinds of threads are allowed. The staff (under this rule) would trashcan a thread by a user with no reputation that is attempting to sell gift cards the same way they would trashcan a thread that is trying to sell cocaine.

Your critique seems to be the lack of evidence. Why is it a problem here, but not when ponzis are tagged? There is lack of evidence as well. Why are the two a problem, but I am not?

A ponzi is essentially a promise which is mathematically impossible to be kept. A ponzi is essentially a promise that if you give me $1 today, then I will give you $2 tomorrow with no limits as to how much total money I will accept. If I claim to somehow use this $1 and "invest" it for a day that somehow gives me >$1 in returns in that one day, then it is your responsibility to ask questions to debunk my claims if you wish to leave me a negative rating. Take these two threads for example (one, two), they were claiming to "invest" in altcoins/ect. so they were initially given the benefit of the doubt, however after questions were asked and research was done, it was determined they were in fact lying about not being a ponzi and were left negative trust.

Another good example is this in which the OP of this thread was offering ponzi-like returns, however was claiming that he was "investing" money sent to him by "investors" and when he was questioned about how he makes the money that he uses to pay the returns, he provided evidence (not proof) of legitimacy, and without significant evidence that would prove otherwise a negative rating is inappropriate in this case.   

I didnt know about "Delta Investment", they have a negative rating though.

The negative rating that Delta has been given has been criticized by a number of at least semi-reputable people. Also the person who left then a negative rating is not a reasonable person, nor does he know how to use logic. I believe my point remains.

[whywefight]

Think connecting who can sell giftcards to trust would be a mistake,turning trust into a currency.
Not something that is earned but something that opens doors to you and even paid for.

Want to be clear I have no issues with people that have opposing views and its great to get the lumps out of the pillows from time to time.
Often I suffer from wanting to stand up for people I feel may be getting a raw deal or are going to get it down the road. Something about this irks me to see people hunting people down. Know its for the better of the community but I wish there was a better way and more balanced approach.

Really scared that this forum will become a closed shop where backdoor deals are made and lower members are treated as peons.
If we force giftcarders into the back we also expose more new accounts to being scammed in private message land. Its clear new accounts are used
for selling giftcards now to protect established accounts from exposure.

Please link 3 trusted gc sellers that offer at least 50% discount... 

[Zeke2345]

Think connecting who can sell giftcards to trust would be a mistake,turning trust into a currency.
Not something that is earned but something that opens doors to you and even paid for.

Want to be clear I have no issues with people that have opposing views and its great to get the lumps out of the pillows from time to time.
Often I suffer from wanting to stand up for people I feel may be getting a raw deal or are going to get it down the road. Something about this irks me to see people hunting people down. Know its for the better of the community but I wish there was a better way and more balanced approach.

Really scared that this forum will become a closed shop where backdoor deals are made and lower members are treated as peons.
If we force giftcarders into the back we also expose more new accounts to being scammed in private message land. Its clear new accounts are used
for selling giftcards now to protect established accounts from exposure.

Please link 3 trusted gc sellers that offer at least 50% discount... 

Why?
You never responded the last time I responded to your curse laden post . Whats going to change this time. Keep trolling me, not wasting time on you till you read and respond to something I actually say.

Besides it has nothing to do with my post.

[Quickseller]

Think connecting who can sell giftcards to trust would be a mistake,turning trust into a currency.
Not something that is earned but something that opens doors to you and even paid for.

Want to be clear I have no issues with people that have opposing views and its great to get the lumps out of the pillows from time to time.
Often I suffer from wanting to stand up for people I feel may be getting a raw deal or are going to get it down the road. Something about this irks me to see people hunting people down. Know its for the better of the community but I wish there was a better way and more balanced approach.

Really scared that this forum will become a closed shop where backdoor deals are made and lower members are treated as peons.
If we force giftcarders into the back we also expose more new accounts to being scammed in private message land. Its clear new accounts are used
for selling giftcards now to protect established accounts from exposure.

Please link 3 trusted gc sellers that offer at least 50% discount... 

If I receive a $50 gift card to Applebees for my birthday and I do not like eating at applebees then I will probably want to sell this gift card. I know the person who gave it to me is not involved in any kind of fraud, so I know the gift card will continue to be honored until the issuer starts charging inactivity fees and/or the balance gets zeroed out due to the balance being sent to the state's abandoned property department. I might first try to sell it for $45, but if after a week when I get no offers, I might lower it to $40, and so on until I offer it for $24.50 and get an offer. The fact that I was selling it for $45 does not make it legit, and the fact that I was selling it for $25.50 does not make it carded/stolen (it was the same card at both price points). The reason that I sold it at the price I did was because of supply and demand (eg because of market forces). Granted, some sellers of carded/stolen gift cards may underprice their cards in order to attempt to sell them more quickly, however this can be addressed by preventing throwaway accounts from being able to advertise their gift cards for sale. 

[Heutenamos]

One of the most ridiculous reasons I have seen them leave negative trust is because someone "tried to cheat a twitter campaign".

I never said that because i didn't had any company and they would say i am supporting scammers or derailing the thread etc etc... LOL and the second most ridiculous was with the LBC account seller.Lutpin trolled him to death.

What I find troubling is the "abuse!" crys and the attacks against those newly added to DT.

Love is blind.You are not seeing the simple abuse or bullying. Imagine a situation where you are a newbie and trading something but some old motherfucker comes and destroys your sale ,trolls your thread and wastes your time.Just because he doesn't likes it.

I cannot accept that,I am not against any new members or old members but I am questioning the behavior.This is no personal attack,at least not from my side.

Tagging is simply not the solution and particularly when theymos himself said there is no enforcement.

[anonymous22]

I was away for awhile of the forum and i got back and saw this thread by chance and in which i saw my name again. Look guys "Who are accusing me for no proof" I do not know why you are attacking me like that? because i am simply trying to earn few bucks to live? You are accusing me to sell few cards that i am doing money laundering?

Now you will ask me for the proof of what i am talking about because you are " paranoid guys " and i want to remind you that i already messaged Ognasty and i revealed my way to get the cards to him and he said that :
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1376014.msg14024403#msg14024403
So I am not ready nor obligated to inform anybody else about my way although i am not getting nor selling any more cards.

About my "SHADY PAST" , I was a new on this forum and I did not know how it is going on with the starbucks cards, i just dealt with some guy:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=641824.0
and once i sold his cards for few bucks as a commission , the cards went bad and i had to refund the buyer and i already did:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=729896.msg9110056#msg9110056

Again, i was new on here and I was a victim of a fraudster and i had to refund the guys from my pocket so you can not forgive it for me or what guys??!!

I am not saying that i am against fighting scammers and fraudsters because i have been scammed too many times and i was a victim for many scammers here on bitcointalk and this does not mean that i can be like them because i know the feeling of getting scammed/ fooled. I am totally with you guys but I wish i can help you and i wish i can help this forum as it helped me before to earn some money but you have to be 100% sure before you judge someone else and ruin his business for nothing.
And btw if i am a money launderer or a scammer, i would vanish from this forum after i am done with my job but i am still here guys because i feel that i belong to this forum and because this forum helped me a lot before to make some money before. And do not forget that if you are using the power that you have to force me to tell you or anybody else about my way to earn money is a sort of blackmail but anyways I am done of this because this brings me headache more than the money i could get.

I would like to thank anyone who defended me while i was not online although i do not know you or you do not know me. Thanks again.

[whywefight]

I was away for awhile of the forum and i got back and saw this thread by chance and in which i saw my name again. Look guys "Who are accusing me for no proof" I do not know why you are attacking me like that? because i am simply trying to earn few bucks to live? You are accusing me to sell few cards that i am doing money laundering?

Now you will ask me for the proof of what i am talking about because you are " paranoid guys " and i want to remind you that i already messaged Ognasty and i revealed my way to get the cards to him and he said that :
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1376014.msg14024403#msg14024403
So I am not ready nor obligated to inform anybody else about my way although i am not getting nor selling any more cards.

About my "SHADY PAST" , I was a new on this forum and I did not know how it is going on with the starbucks cards, i just dealt with some guy:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=641824.0
and once i sold his cards for few bucks as a commission , the cards went bad and i had to refund the buyer and i already did:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=729896.msg9110056#msg9110056

Again, i was new on here and I was a victim of a fraudster and i had to refund the guys from my pocket so you can not forgive it for me or what guys??!!

I am not saying that i am against fighting scammers and fraudsters because i have been scammed too many times and i was a victim for many scammers here on bitcointalk and this does not mean that i can be like them because i know the feeling of getting scammed/ fooled. I am totally with you guys but I wish i can help you and i wish i can help this forum as it helped me before to earn some money but you have to be 100% sure before you judge someone else and ruin his business for nothing.
And btw if i am a money launderer or a scammer, i would vanish from this forum after i am done with my job but i am still here guys because i feel that i belong to this forum and because this forum helped me a lot before to make some money before. And do not forget that if you are using the power that you have to force me to tell you or anybody else about my way to earn money is a sort of blackmail but anyways I am done of this because this brings me headache more than the money i could get.

I would like to thank anyone who defended me while i was not online although i do not know you or you do not know me. Thanks again.

lets have a look for another trusted member.

[anonymous22]

lets have a look for another trusted member.

So I am not ready nor obligated to inform anybody else about my way although i am not getting nor selling any more cards.

You did not see this? I hate repeating what i said over and over again.

[whywefight]

lets have a look for another trusted member.

So I am not ready nor obligated to inform anybody else about my way although i am not getting nor selling any more cards.

You did not see this? I hate repeating what i said over and over again.

if you are having a legit way i would be glad if someone confirms it.

I have read it, i thought i will ask for it again anyways.