Jean-Luc destroying NXT or saving it with NXT 2.0?

[Marc De Mesel]

So lots of controversy in the Nxt community. Lead dev Jean Luc proposed Nxt 2.0 which involves splitting nxt into 2 currencies, fNxt and nxt. fnxt becomes motherchain stripped of everything except validating transactions (token for forging/staking), and nxt becomes childchain with all the features (token for paying/currency, aliases, multisig, market place, asset exchange, etc).

This allows to easily fork nxt and create your own crypto, taking whatever features you want from nxt but also having the decentralised network fnxt validate your transactions and secure your crypto. Your crypto (be it currency or app) will also automatically stay up to date with new code. Another change in nxt 2.0 is that only the crypto creator needs to buy (f)nxt to pay for the transactions but the users can now pay the fees with their own currency allowing you to completely hide nxt and fnxt to your end user.


Since likely fnxt will be distributed to all nxt holders in 1:1 allocation, some asset investors and asset issuers think this will crash the assets in nxt value as everybody wants nxt in anticipation of the fnxt distribution and/or nxt will lose a lot of value as the forging power goes to fnxt also damaging the value of the assets. Others fear people will now wait to launch their planned assets & apps build on top of nxt until nxt 2.0 is launched.

Core dev Riker calculated splitting nxt into mother- and childchain will allow nxt to scale to 200 Transactions Per Minute while keeping the blockchain at 540 MB instead of 43 GB. Many agree scalability is important but some believe it can be achieved in less intrusive and better ways. Often heard criticism is that nxt is a platform yet Jean Luc makes too many changes and has not respected backwards compatibility and user friendliness enough chasing away users and developers. Instead the core devs should focus less on code cleanness and efficiency and more on retaining and building out existing users & features.


What do you think? Would Nxt 2.0 be the kiss of death, or the breakthrough Nxt has been waiting for?

[Marc De Mesel]

How about implementing a solution where you guys/gals don't get to pocket all them fnxt while screwing the AE?  

Pocket? Nxt, the coin, is stripped from it's forging power, my Nxt if I may say, for which I payed dearly! So ofcourse I get the coin where my forging power is going to 1 on 1.


Screwing AE? That is based on false assumptions I think. The first one being that Nxt will go down in value as the value will go to fNxt.

Bitcoins do not have any validation power, which you only have with mining gear, yet people value it highly for just the currency aspect. Same is true for Nxt, the currency.


Sure Nxt will lose value with the split, say 50% to fNxt, but the value of cryptos depends mostly on people seeing a future in it, speculation, and I think nxt 2.0 offers exactly that, a promising future, easily doubling it's value.

But some disagree, and think nxt 2.0 is the inverse: no future.

[Marc De Mesel]

I do believe that some can think up better scalability solutions, possibly avoiding a split. Jean Luc does make mistakes, for example at the time forcing every new account to not only share their nxt address, but also their 'public key', before they can receive/do their first transaction, making it less userfriendly as bitcoin. Luckily he cancelled that later on but this did cost us in adoption.

But thinking up a better design is not sufficient, you have to implement it and get it marketed as well. In crypto you cannot decide what the devs need to do, they are not employees, even though you may hold many shares/coins. You can only decide whether to continue to follow their lead and vision, or to go your own path, and for the latter you need a lot more than just a better design.

[runpaint]

If we need a new chain separate from NXT, the new chain should be dependent upon NXT tokens.

It makes no sense for something as established and successful as NXT to become completely dependent upon a brand-new altcoin.

So I think it makes perfect sense for fNXT to be created with ~1 billion tokens that are locked and can never move unless NXT is locked to release them.

If coins can move both ways between the two chains, then NXT holders get to decide how much fNXT is released.

Since 1 fNXT would always be tradeable for 1 NXT within the NXT client, the price of each would remain the same, and the overall effective supply of NXT/fNXT would remain under a billion.

[sadface]

i think 2.0 is cool, but it comes at great cost. i think nxt won't be the same after. the nxt sidechain could die, or only survive at grace of the fnxt holders. i already see a 1.x branch fork and a community split coming up. a lot of past effort will end up wasted and the platform activity might slow down or come to a halt until after the 2.0 fork.
i just got to come to terms and shake off that some people i have come to like and appreciate might get burned.
from an investor perspective its awesome.

[tokeweed]

NXT has nothin to lose.  Go for it.

[houlala1]

You'd better convert your nxt to another alt (Eth, Maid, Factom, Decred?)

[smooth]

There's nothing wrong with splitting currencies but the existing currency and its network should be left intact. People who want to migrate to the new, fundamentally different one can do so voluntarily.

[BitcoinNational]

explain more 4 da stoopid

speed and scalability = good
what is = the bad?

network model
Does this mean that btcd and vrc staking coins can contribute to the mother chain while staking their own chain?
Would this allow all to stake all?
Anyone can now fork-in to the superNET?

business model
Crypto creator needs to buy (f)nxt to pay for the creation of an asset?
What is nxt used to pay for?  
Can we get a clear picture on the business model for (f)nxt and nxt?
Which is the one used for transaction fee?

[cryptohunter2]

wow wait what?
I have my next in cold storage since the start but never really checked out what's happening lately.

Now i have to think about moving them over to a new version or will that be taken care of automagically?

[freshman777]

wow wait what?
I have my next in cold storage since the start but never really checked out what's happening lately.

Now i have to think about moving them over to a new version or will that be taken care of automagically?

Automagically, now go back to your cave and hibernate for ten years.

[freshman777]

NXT has nothin to lose.

and everything to gain, 100+ tps is what it's about.

[freshman777]

What is their current TPS?

About the same as Bitcoin if blocks were full, 3 tps.

[Marc De Mesel]

What is their current TPS?

About the same as Bitcoin if blocks were full, 3 tps.

Currently there are 2 transactions per minute, about 2000 transactions per day.

Since there is 1 block per minute are you saying that it could carry currently 3 per second so 180 per minute?


I think this nxt 2.0 calculation is important:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C2lgUpSLxUJma3KsJV-lTs0B5mANolZqQZiS8StwVtI/edit

[sadface]

disclaimer: all this is how i understood the proposal. its not necessarily 100% correct. i might have gotten something wrong.

explain more 4 da stoopid

speed and scalability = good
what is = the bad?

the community has not decided on a distribution method for fnxt yet. the most likely scenario is a 1:1 fnxt to nxt distribution. there have been arguments made that nxt as a childchain will lose at least half its value with unknown consequences for asset issuers and asset holders. asset holders funds are locked in an illiquid market, so they will end up with less fnxt. there are arguments beeing made that this is unfair, as those who used the platform and tried to make it flourish will get less than those who just hold.
there are also people who say nxt as a childchain will die, because the platform will be filled with business childchains and nobody is going to pay the fnxt for the nxt childchain blocks (see bottom for explaination). in that case your current versatile nxt token is lost and you end with a token that is only used for forging.

there are some more arguments against it being made, i can't sum them all up. there is a very long thread over at the nxtform: https://nxtforum.org/core-development-discussion/nxt-2-0-design/

network model
Does this mean that btcd and vrc staking coins can contribute to the mother chain while staking their own chain?+
Would this allow all to stake all?

no. btcd and vrc are not nxt childchains.

Anyone can now fork-in to the superNET?

i dont understand. supernet is a seperate project, its not part of the nxt core.

business model
Crypto creator needs to buy (f)nxt to pay for the creation of an asset?

assets are created on childchains. you need to pay with childchain tokens (for example nxt) to issue an asset. fnxt is the forging token on the motherchain. fnxt is used to secure the motherchain and all childchains via PoS. forgers on the motherchain will receive fees for that in fnxt.
while all transaction fees on the childchain are paid in childchain tokens, fees for a block to be included in the motherchain have to be paid in fnxt. those fees will be paid by someone, e.g. a childchain forger or childchain creator (e.g. like a business)

What is nxt used to pay for?

its the token on the nxt childchain. you can buy assets, buy stuff on the marketplace, write messages etc.

Can we get a clear picture on the business model for (f)nxt and nxt?
Which is the one used for transaction fee?

the current nxt chain is split into a mother chain and a child chain. a market will emerge where they can be freely traded. nxt will remain a token. fnxt will be used ONLY for forging. fnxt can't do anything other than forge and beeing transfered from one account to another at very high fees, since transactions on the motherchain can't be pruned away and therefor need to be rare.

[freshman777]

What is their current TPS?

About the same as Bitcoin if blocks were full, 3 tps.

Currently there are 2 transactions per minute, about 2000 transactions per day.

Since there is 1 block per minute are you saying that it could carry currently 3 per second so 180 per minute?


I think this nxt 2.0 calculation is important:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C2lgUpSLxUJma3KsJV-lTs0B5mANolZqQZiS8StwVtI/edit

It can carry 255 per block * 1440 = 367,200 of simple payments/bids/asks every day.
Some transactions are larger, 250,000 a day is realistic. Calculates to 3 tps throughput like Bitcoin.

2 t.p.minute is what it does under current load, 3 t.p.second is what it has capacity to process.
3->100 in NXT 2.0, it will be a huge progress.

[BitcoinNational]

Can we get a clear picture on the business model for (f)nxt and nxt?

nxt will remain a token (child)
fnxt will be used ONLY for forging (motherchain) can't be pruned
fnxt can carry 255 TX/block * 1440 = 367,200 TX/day  [3 tps]

---
So no nxt will be generated?  Only fnxt will be rewarded (created) for network participation (hashing) ... plus NXT fees

[WorldCoiner]

Hi Marc,

I was blogging today about this in my German Altcoinblog:
https://altcoinspekulant.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/nxtcoin-nxt-revolution-oder-evolution/

[sadface]

Can we get a clear picture on the business model for (f)nxt and nxt?

nxt will remain a token (child)
fnxt will be used ONLY for forging (motherchain) can't be pruned
fnxt can carry 255 TX/block * 1440 = 367,200 TX/day  [3 tps]

---
So no nxt will be generated?  Only fnxt will be rewarded (created) for network participation (hashing) ... plus NXT fees

no new nxt will be generated. they will stay at ~1 billion. if the 1:1 distribution happenes  as proposed ~1 billion fnxt will be created and awarded to all nxt holders.

afaik how many TPS the fnxt motherchain can handle is yet to be determined. its not that important. the TPS increase comes from the the childchains, since those will be pruned its possible to have bigger blocks without having a bloat issue.

The child chain "blocks" will be implemented as a prunable attachment of a single (one per block per chain) transaction, of type ChildchainBlock, on the main chain. Anyone can create a ChildchainBlock transaction

so all transactions on a childchain are bundled into a single transaction on the motherchain.

[Marc De Mesel]

Hi Marc,

I was blogging today about this in my German Altcoinblog:
https://altcoinspekulant.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/nxtcoin-nxt-revolution-oder-evolution/

Love it! 

Aber Englisch man, verdammt!

"Ich habe dazu eine klare Meinung: Auf jeden Fall Revolution und Nxt 2.0. Stillstand ist der Tod bei Altcoins, man muss aktiv sein und auch dem Markt etwas bieten. Laut Ryker könnte die Blockchain von Nxt von aktuell 1.5 Gigabyte für fNxt auf rund 10 Megabyte eingedampft werden. Das gibt schon ganz neue Möglichkeiten. ...... Die Altcoinmärkte reagieren nicht auf kleine Dinge, nur durch spektakuläre Aktionen, kann man sich aus der Masse der Coins hevorheben. Dass aus einer Coin zwei Coins werden stellt ein starker Kaufanreiz dar."