Bitcoin Forum
December 17, 2017, 05:13:30 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Government ban on bitcoin will crash bitcoin or the other way?  (Read 2557 times)
twolifeinexile
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154



View Profile
January 23, 2013, 11:16:43 AM
 #1

It seems almost a consensus that bitcoin' future ultimately depend on government acceptance or totally ban, and totally ban means bitcoin crash. Is it possible that propersition maybe wrong?

Who has some colorful/reasonable argument it maybe the other way?

One scenario: one or two super power government ban the currency, but the network of bitcoin really do not depend anyone but a p2p network. People get on bitcoin on darknet (as long as public-privat key cryptography holds, I don't see how they ban a p2p net work totally rely on secure channel unless they ban all secure channel). Now bitcoin are much much harder to get (a lot of people who has bitcoin give up and their bitcoin sunk in a cold wallet and out of circulation, people can only exchange bitcoin and fiat with trust people, no exchange). and still have residual value (black market for bitcoin and other product and services still exist), the rich people begin to realize if they can manage to get certain asset in bitcoin, it is now theirs and get on board a little by little by web of trust. Rich people like things harder to get and non-perishable, they only accumulate.

Now bitcoin become collectible on black market , price can go extremely high.
Government realize they really have no way to totally ban it and change law to regulate.

Any flaw in this scenario?
1513487610
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513487610

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513487610
Reply with quote  #2

1513487610
Report to moderator
Transactions can optionally carry transaction fees. Whoever mines the block which ends up containing your transaction will get the fee. The Bitcoin client will sometimes force you to pay a fee when it thinks that no miner will accept your transaction otherwise.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
lucif
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448


Clown prophet


View Profile
January 23, 2013, 11:19:24 AM
 #2

No government will like Bitcoin anonymous nature. Ever.
Grouver (BtcBalance)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 530



View Profile WWW
January 23, 2013, 11:22:32 AM
 #3

Thread watched.
I want to know what everybody thinks about this point.

The Fool
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
January 23, 2013, 12:02:00 PM
 #4

Mt. Gox would eventually have to close if the US passed sanctions on Bitcoin transactions due to Japan's relationship with the US.

The price would crash at least 10% and likely much further. The price may return to its previous norm if a Russian or other offshore exchange took Mt. Gox's place.

Bitcoin will always be in use with or without an exchange.
Piper67
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106


AffBits.com Affiliate Network


View Profile WWW
January 23, 2013, 12:37:07 PM
 #5

It seems almost a consensus that bitcoin' future ultimately depend on government acceptance or totally ban, and totally ban means bitcoin crash. Is it possible that propersition maybe wrong?

Who has some colorful/reasonable argument it maybe the other way?

One scenario: one or two super power government ban the currency, but the network of bitcoin really do not depend anyone but a p2p network. People get on bitcoin on darknet (as long as public-privat key cryptography holds, I don't see how they ban a p2p net work totally rely on secure channel unless they ban all secure channel). Now bitcoin are much much harder to get (a lot of people who has bitcoin give up and their bitcoin sunk in a cold wallet and out of circulation, people can only exchange bitcoin and fiat with trust people, no exchange). and still have residual value (black market for bitcoin and other product and services still exist), the rich people begin to realize if they can manage to get certain asset in bitcoin, it is now theirs and get on board a little by little by web of trust. Rich people like things harder to get and non-perishable, they only accumulate.

Now bitcoin become collectible on black market , price can go extremely high.
Government realize they really have no way to totally ban it and change law to regulate.

Any flaw in this scenario?

Yes, your premise is wrong. Firstly, there is no consensus that government acceptance is crucial. Secondly, it isn't (just like government acceptance of other p2p networks isn't crucial).

Grouver (BtcBalance)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 530



View Profile WWW
January 23, 2013, 12:42:14 PM
 #6

Yes, ofcourse Bitcoin doesn't need any goverment to excists or function.
Though, it will hit Bitcoin hard if 'they' declare it as an "illegal currency".

Akka
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162



View Profile
January 23, 2013, 01:13:09 PM
 #7

Well, any Government claiming to be democratic will have a hard time to outlaw the connection of numeric values in form of in-/and outputs to cryptographic Keys and spread of this linking through a p2p network... or however you would describe what Bitcoin actually is.

Better describe it good or have the risk of outlawing Skype right with it.

I don't see any foundation on that Bitcoin could be outlawed.

Maybe outlaw the exchange and the Use as a currency? I don't know the laws for the US, but the laws for Germany (and therefore probably the EU as they Standardize everything) state that it's legal to accept (nearly) everything as payment as long as you pay tax in Euro.

The German Bank Regulation has stated:

Quote
Units of Value intended to function as currency that can be exchanged against real benefits, goods or services or that f.e. Bitcoin, can be created in computer networks .....(snip).... a permission to create and use this Units of Value as currency is not required.

Source

So trade is (yet) legal, and I see now way how they could outlaw it without making basically every exchange that has no € in it illegal. And that would create a Shitstorm.

But what is about the exchanges?

The G. Bank regulation states further

Quote
If this Units become a commercial subject themselves the business has to qualify as Bank account as for § 1 Abs. 1 Satz 2 Nrn. 4 or 10 KWG or Financial Service Provider as for § 1 Abs. 1a Satz 2 Nrn. 1 - 4 KWG and operates under reservation of § 32 Abs. 1 KWG

So damn it, exchanges will have to qualify as financial service provider in order to operate.

Guess what, Bitcoin-Central already has that.

I think in the future there will be more regulation on how to acquire bitcoins and how to use them.

And just with cash today:

Some will follow all of them
Most will follow them only where they think they might get caught.
Some will follow nearly none of them.

There might be a crash though, when exchanges being closed amass and account frozen in the transition phase from everyone can make an exchange to all exchanges require to be licensed.

All previous versions of currency will no longer be supported as of this update
thezerg
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile
January 23, 2013, 01:18:06 PM
 #8

When governments and citizens stop trusting each other's fiat currencies (aka the US dollar) what will be used for international transfers that are too small to justify a chartered plane filled with gold?

Gabi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092


If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat


View Profile
January 23, 2013, 01:24:40 PM
 #9

Quote
I don't see any foundation on that Bitcoin could be outlawed.
This won't stop them for jailing you. They will just say that bitcoin is illegal and if they find you having them then you are a terrorist and go to jail. You know, national security
deadweasel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364



View Profile
January 23, 2013, 01:26:14 PM
 #10

Quote
I don't see any foundation on that Bitcoin could be outlawed.
This won't stop them for jailing you. They will just say that bitcoin is illegal and if they find you having them then you are a terrorist and go to jail. You know, national security

With proper precautions, they couldn't prove I owned a single bitcoin.  Plus they would likely have a date for the law to go into effect -- giving time for people to either crash the market or safely store their btcs.

01BTC10
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 742



View Profile
January 23, 2013, 01:26:51 PM
 #11

Look where the DMCA ban on DRM circumvention and BitTorrent technology brought them.
CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1862


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
January 23, 2013, 01:28:20 PM
 #12

Also the very way that the "law" (in Western countries at least) works will make a law "banning Bitcoin" extremely difficult to do (the US tried very hard against Phil Zimmerman and lost).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
conspirosphere.tk
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2226


Revolution will be decentralized


View Profile
January 23, 2013, 01:29:49 PM
 #13

Now bitcoin become collectible on black market , price can go extremely high.

Yes: it would crash it upwards.
goldlyre
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 591



View Profile
January 23, 2013, 01:40:44 PM
 #14

Government won't ban bitcoin because in the future many evil guys in the government shall happily adopt it for various purposes.

                               
           ░▓█████████████████▓░
          ▒▓██▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▓▒▒▒██▓▒░
      ░▒▓███▓                 ▒██▓▓▒░░    ░
▓▒███████▓▒        ░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░    ░▓▓▓██▓▓▓▒▓
▒░██▒░░         ▒▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒▓▓██▓▒     ░ ▒▓▓░▓
░▒▓█▒         ▒█▓▓▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▓▓▓████▓▓▒   ▒█▓▒▒
 ▒░██        ██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░▒▒░██▒   ██▒▒
 ▓░▓█▒      ██▒▒▒▒▒▒░▒░░▒▒▒░░▒▓██▓   ▒██░▒
 ░▓░█▓     ▓█▓▒░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░▒▒▓▓▓▓▓▒   ██░▓░
  ▓▒▒█▓  ▓▒█▓▒▒▓▓▒░▒░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒ █▒  ██▓░▓
   █░▒█▓ ▓███▓▒▒░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░ ▓█  ██▓ ▓
    █░▓█▓ ░██▓███▓▓▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░▒▒▓██  ██▓░▓
    ░█░▒██  ░ ░▓███████▓██████▒  ██▒░▓
      █▒░██▓      ░▒▒▓▓▓▓▒▒░   ▓██░▒▓
       ▓▓░▒██▒               ▒██▓░▓▓
        ░█▓░▓██▒           ▒██▓░▓█░
          ▒█▓░▓██▓       ▓██▓▒▓█▒
            ▒█▓▒▒███░ ▒███▒▒▓█▒
              ▒██▓▒▓███▓▒▒██▒
                ░▓██▒▒▒███░
                   ▒███▒














waspoza
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 602


Firstbits: 1waspoza


View Profile
January 23, 2013, 01:51:11 PM
 #15

Yeah, gov ppl and banks hate paying taxes too, u know. Tongue
Fiyasko
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1428


Okey Dokey Lokey


View Profile
January 23, 2013, 01:57:14 PM
 #16

If ANY goverment "bans" bitcoin, Give them a giant middle finger and stop using thier Fiat and use Bitcoins FUCKING EVERYWHERE, Walk up to EVERY damn store and ask if they take bitcoins "because this paper is worthless, and the goverment is trying to turn this Valuble, International crypto currency into something Illegal to ensure the value of thier Fiat Paper"

Seriously, I live in Canada, in a military family, And I even asked my Lft.Commander father what should we do if someplace in the world (Like Team America, World Police) declairs Bitcoins illegal.
He simple stated "say screw you, im using bitcoins instead then"
Then there came the whole "You must accept this note as legal tender" issue...
Again he said "just dont take it" "Isnt that techincally illegal" "Ofcourse, But dont you think that Banning a form of money should be illegal?, Nothing should require a "ban" it should just die off naturally like the Zimbabwé rupee(?), because we used to trade beaver pelts and peices of shiny metal for food or raccoon hats, Look where we are today"

http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=DingoRabiit&sign=ANY&type=RECV <-My Ratings
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.0 GAWminers and associated things are not to be trusted, Especially the "mineral" exchange
twolifeinexile
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154



View Profile
January 23, 2013, 03:09:17 PM
 #17

Yes, ofcourse Bitcoin doesn't need any goverment to excists or function.
Though, it will hit Bitcoin hard if 'they' declare it as an "illegal currency".

That is the point I am speculating and not that sure ("Bitcoin will be hit hard"),it may happen initially, but by doing this, they effectively remove a large liquidity out of this market, which cause  a lot coins go cold wallet, and a "bitcoin in exile " p2p roaming in a "darknet", which perfectly make it a collectable in hidden world. Not only that, their  ban will draw people's attention and make it more desirable just like drugs. And even a mafia profiting cartel could form)

All these effects, combining the fact not all government will ban this thing at the same time, very easily to cause a man-made reverse crash in the long run.

I am not saying this must happen, but I do feel this is a possible scenario and want to here people's arguments on both sides.

Thanks for the input, very appreciated.
deeplink
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 728


In cryptography we trust


View Profile
January 23, 2013, 03:17:30 PM
 #18

When Obama declares the War on Bitcoin, it is time to go all in.
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708



View Profile
January 23, 2013, 03:19:10 PM
 #19

Yes, ofcourse Bitcoin doesn't need any goverment to excists or function.
Though, it will hit Bitcoin hard if 'they' declare it as an "illegal currency".

It's already too late for that to matter.  Certainly some governments will eventually declare Bitcoin illegal within their own borders, but a few in Europe have already acknowledged that it's a legal commodity.  Even in the United States, an outright ban isn't practically possible for complex legal reasons.  The Liberty Dollar isn't illegal, only it's production is, and only because of it's similarities to the US Dollar (which is a rediculous concept, but bitcoins don't, by their nature, use paper at all.)  Regular citizens cannot be prosecuted for the mere possession of bitcoins, although transactions within the US will eventually be illegal; probably by a court precedent that finds that US to US transactions in bitcoins amount to evidence of tax evasion.

No matter how it all goes down, governments are notoriously slow to respond to such things as Bitcoin, and it's already too late to kill it.  That point passed two years ago.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708



View Profile
January 23, 2013, 03:20:56 PM
 #20

Yes, ofcourse Bitcoin doesn't need any goverment to excists or function.
Though, it will hit Bitcoin hard if 'they' declare it as an "illegal currency".

That is the point I am speculating and not that sure ("Bitcoin will be hit hard"),it may happen initially, but by doing this, they effectively remove a large liquidity out of this market, which cause  a lot coins go cold wallet, and a "bitcoin in exile " p2p roaming in a "darknet", which perfectly make it a collectable in hidden world. Not only that, their  ban will draw people's attention and make it more desirable just like drugs. And even a mafia profiting cartel could form)


Dude, that's already the case.  For that matter, that's by design.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!