How would Bitcoin handle TPS like Visa?

[Abiky]

I was wondering if there could be a possibility of making Bitcoin handle TPS as fast an efficient as Visa? Perhaps, it could be achieved but I think that Bitcoin's security would be at risk don't you think?

Maybe this has something to do with a block size increase...

I would like to see your opinions about it. 

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[Dissonance]

My understanding is that Visa processes thousands of transactions a second. I don't think bitcoin ever needs to do that for it to go mainstream.  I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses.  However I would like to see the mainchain be able to atleast keep pace with ACH which based on my research appears to do 500-700 TPS.  I think that is the ballpark bitcoin should be in.

[Abiky]

I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses.

I have heard about sidechains but have not gone deeper into it. If you would like to enlighten me more about it, I would greatly appreciate it. Based on what I have read from your post, it looks like it is a very interesting concept. 

[gentlemand]

Whatever 'side' you're on, it's pretty hard to see how that could ever be achieved with on chain scaling. There'll have to be something second layer. Whether that'll ever be the lightning network or 21's solution or anyone else remains to be seen.

[Lauda]

I have heard about sidechains but have not gone deeper into it. If you would like to enlighten me more about it, I would greatly appreciate it. Based on what I have read from your post, it looks like it is a very interesting concept.  

Sidechains are basically a mechanism with enables you to move your coins into another blockchain without the need of a third party or anything. This is done with a two-way-peg and you can move your coins back later. It is not easy to explain them in a very short way; this might help.

There'll have to be something second layer. Whether that'll ever be the lightning network or 21's solution or anyone else remains to be seen.

LN is far superior than their solution and will be free to use (aside from the TX fees).
Bitcoin can't even come close to a centralized solution such as Visa when it comes to on-chain scaling only (without sacrificing decentralization).

[AgentofCoin]

I was wondering if there could be a possibility of making Bitcoin handle TPS as fast an efficient as Visa? Perhaps, it could be achieved but I think that Bitcoin's security would be at risk don't you think?
Maybe this has something to do with a block size increase...
...

For this discussion, some would argue that there is an important distinction between a "transaction" and a "confirmation".
Bitcoin's ability of relaying transactions is almost instantaneous.

The real question is, when are the "transactions" considered a "final" or "non-reversible" payment?
In Bitcoin, it is when the transaction is included within 1 block (or 6 blocks), which is usually an average of 10 minutes.
All processors are different, but average like VISA are between 15 to 60 days (estimate).

So the issue isn't increasing Bitcoin's transaction ability, but increasing Bitcoin's ability to fit more transactions for confirmation.

The debate about how to fit more transactions in each block for confirmation, is called the "Block Size Debate".

Edit: If you are asking for faster than avg 10 mins per block, then as others have said, Lightning Network and etc is the answer.

[Meuh6879]

I Visa

Bitcoin liberate all human from economic prison ... and trap of inflation.
Visa is a system from the banks that they have printing money because they don't want die.

[franky1]

My understanding is that Visa processes thousands of transactions a second. I don't think bitcoin ever needs to do that for it to go mainstream.  I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses.  However I would like to see the mainchain be able to atleast keep pace with ACH which based on my research appears to do 500-700 TPS.  I think that is the ballpark bitcoin should be in.

VISA's thousands of tx's per second is based on the combined total of ALL of their networks.. remember its not one network,but multiple networks.

EG Visa US is not the same network, database, settling system as Visa Europe.

so think of it this way. Visa US=bitcoin, Visa EU=litecoin, visa UK=ethereum, etc etc..

[Dissonance]

My understanding is that Visa processes thousands of transactions a second. I don't think bitcoin ever needs to do that for it to go mainstream.  I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses.  However I would like to see the mainchain be able to atleast keep pace with ACH which based on my research appears to do 500-700 TPS.  I think that is the ballpark bitcoin should be in.

VISA's thousands of tx's per second is based on the combined total of ALL of their networks.. remember its not one network,but multiple networks.

EG Visa US is not the same network, database, settling system as Visa Europe.

so think of it this way. Visa US=bitcoin, Visa EU=litecoin, visa UK=ethereum, etc etc..

Not quite.  If I goto the EU and want to use my visa I don't need a different card to use a different bank account.  The networks may be different but I can transfer value from my bank account to any of them.  There is no way to transfer value between different crypto currencies without a centralized third party involved like shapeshift.io

[franky1]

My understanding is that Visa processes thousands of transactions a second. I don't think bitcoin ever needs to do that for it to go mainstream.  I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses.  However I would like to see the mainchain be able to atleast keep pace with ACH which based on my research appears to do 500-700 TPS.  I think that is the ballpark bitcoin should be in.

VISA's thousands of tx's per second is based on the combined total of ALL of their networks.. remember its not one network,but multiple networks.

EG Visa US is not the same network, database, settling system as Visa Europe.

so think of it this way. Visa US=bitcoin, Visa EU=litecoin, visa UK=ethereum, etc etc..

Not quite.  If I goto the EU and want to use my visa I don't need a different card to use a different bank account.  The networks may be different but I can transfer value from my bank account to any of them.  There is no way to transfer value between different crypto currencies without a centralized third party involved like shapeshift.io

if you look at the mechanisms behind it. its not a visa terminal the retailer talks only to visa with. its actually a local merchant account with a local bank.
EG worldpay, streamline, sagepay. which then talks to visa.

so imagine the retailers merchant account as a connection to the poloniex exchange where it then makes a request for its prefered currency.
where all the real transactions are stored in separate ledgers depending on the currency and the merchant account does the conversion.

[Dissonance]

My understanding is that Visa processes thousands of transactions a second. I don't think bitcoin ever needs to do that for it to go mainstream.  I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses.  However I would like to see the mainchain be able to atleast keep pace with ACH which based on my research appears to do 500-700 TPS.  I think that is the ballpark bitcoin should be in.

VISA's thousands of tx's per second is based on the combined total of ALL of their networks.. remember its not one network,but multiple networks.

EG Visa US is not the same network, database, settling system as Visa Europe.

so think of it this way. Visa US=bitcoin, Visa EU=litecoin, visa UK=ethereum, etc etc..

Not quite.  If I goto the EU and want to use my visa I don't need a different card to use a different bank account.  The networks may be different but I can transfer value from my bank account to any of them.  There is no way to transfer value between different crypto currencies without a centralized third party involved like shapeshift.io

if you look at the mechanisms behind it. its not a visa terminal the retailer talks only to visa. its actually a local merchant account with a local bank.
EG worldpay, streamline, sagepay. which then talks to visa.

so imagine the retailers merchant account as a connection to the poloniex exchange where it then makes a request for its prefered currency.
where all the real transactions are stored in separate ledgers depending on the currency and the merchant account does the conversion.

Yes but the value is interchangeable via a centralized system ..Unless there was an easy - NON centeralized way to transfer value between altcoins the analogy doesn't really hold.

[funkenstein]

I was wondering if there could be a possibility of making Bitcoin handle TPS as fast an efficient as Visa? Perhaps, it could be achieved but I think that Bitcoin's security would be at risk don't you think?

Maybe this has something to do with a block size increase...

I would like to see your opinions about it. 

You must be very confused.  Bitcoin is a unit of account.  Visa is a company offering settlement services.  They offer no unit of account and their settlement could be done in any unit. 

[Amph]

read plenty of optimizations are possible that may put us on that visa level

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability

[Abiky]

Sidechains are basically a mechanism with enables you to move your coins into another blockchain without the need of a third party or anything. This is done with a two-way-peg and you can move your coins back later. It is not easy to explain them in a very short way; this might help.

Thanks for the clarification. Based on what I have read, I guess that coins or protocol that is like a sidechain could be Omni (before was Mastercoin) Coins like Tether and Counterparty run on the same Bitcoin block chain.

About Bitcoin's TPS, I think that it may reach out Visa's level if some improvements would be done to it. This could really happen in the future and thus Bitcoin would become mainstream 

[Lauda]

About Bitcoin's TPS, I think that it may reach out Visa's level if some improvements would be done to it. This could really happen in the future and thus Bitcoin would become mainstream  

If we focus on scaling directly (block size limit) it will never come close. There are debates on the safety of 2-3-4 MB blocks (6 - 9 - 12 TPS on average). Visa handles 2000 TPS on average today. This is why solutions such as the LN are needed.

[funkenstein]

About Bitcoin's TPS, I think that it may reach out Visa's level if some improvements would be done to it. This could really happen in the future and thus Bitcoin would become mainstream  

If we focus on scaling directly (block size limit) it will never come close. There are debates on the safety of 2-3-4 MB blocks (6 - 9 - 12 TPS on average). Visa handles 2000 TPS on average today. This is why solutions such as the LN are needed.

Visa is also a solution.  They could handle 2000 TPS valued in bitcoin. 

[Abiky]

This is why solutions such as the LN are needed.

But doesn't the Lightning Network affect Bitcoin's security as well? I am not really sure but I have a bad feeling about it. For Bitcoin to handle more TPS I think there needs to be some serious development to be done, especially the security of the Bitcoin network. Just my opinion. 

[Lauda]

But doesn't the Lightning Network affect Bitcoin's security as well? I am not really sure but I have a bad feeling about it.

It does not do that at all. Transacting on the LN should be faster, cheaper and secure. Faster as in near instant (once a channel has been created). You definitely need to do more reading in regards to it. There are a few engineering challanges until it is ready but the development has been constantly progressing.

[Abiky]

But doesn't the Lightning Network affect Bitcoin's security as well? I am not really sure but I have a bad feeling about it.

It does not do that at all. Transacting on the LN should be faster, cheaper and secure. Faster as in near instant (once a channel has been created). You definitely need to do more reading in regards to it. There are a few engineering challanges until it is ready but the development has been constantly progressing.

I guess I need to research more about the Lightning Network. Will reading the whitepaper be enough? If you would like to share some useful resources of information, I would greatly appreciate it. Hope the development to complete LN would not take too long 

[AliceWonderMiscreations]

Whatever 'side' you're on, it's pretty hard to see how that could ever be achieved with on chain scaling. There'll have to be something second layer. Whether that'll ever be the lightning network or 21's solution or anyone else remains to be seen.

My personal favorite solution is altcoins that primarily are used either in a specific industry or a specific region.

e.g. when I get ready to travel to Mexico I could go to an exchange to buy Cucaracha Coins that vendors in Mexico accept and then when I return home, I can exchange what I didn't spend back to BTC (or whatever crypto merchants where I live tend to accept)

I don't believe there needs to be one coin that is the only choice for everyone everywhere, and I think that is dangerous even as it creates a single point of economic failure.