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Author Topic: Looking for Partner for a New Bitcoin Business  (Read 8294 times)
btchip
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January 25, 2013, 10:11:51 AM
 #21

My vote would go to Scala and Play 2 for security & scalability but hey, I'm not a web developer  Grin

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January 25, 2013, 10:34:15 AM
 #22

Big no to ruby and asp.net
For a serious web facing business:
Php
Mysql
Python

1. Open source
2. Proven
3. Scalable
4. Availability of developers
Collocated on dedicated hardened secure servers and maintained by competent devs and sysadmins and you've got a robust and secure system.

Any one would shocked to know the true extent that the legacy financial system is hacked on all their proprietary commercial grade hardware and software.  

So it's not necessarily the system / language that matters but the quality of the work of the individuals who implement your system

(And still your gonna get hacked if your system has any real value)
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January 25, 2013, 01:39:49 PM
 #23

And thus, it turned into a language thread.

So here are my choices:
    Python
    Django
    Twisted
    Jinja

All the other tools mentioned also can do the job.

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January 25, 2013, 03:12:57 PM
 #24

Care to remind me which
serious web facing business
you operate ?

Rails is awesome, deal with it.

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January 25, 2013, 03:57:13 PM
 #25

Care to remind me which
serious web facing business
you operate ?

Rails is awesome, deal with it.


I don't operate a serious web facing business.  Actually most successful webshops start designing their  custom code as they grow.

facebook.com operated on php/js/mysql LAMP stack until it grew into the multi-million users mark.  I believe their back end is now  C++, Java, Python, and Erlang.

Mt. Gox does pretty well on php/mysql

There are dozens of other examples. 

I just don't know Rails.  Here is someone's list of top 50 rails sites.
http://goo.gl/ekrGA

Seems a little light on  financial service site.

But like I said, It not the language as much as it is the dev's knowledge of that language.

So to each his own.
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January 25, 2013, 05:00:06 PM
 #26

Care to remind me which
serious web facing business
you operate ?

Rails is awesome, deal with it.


You say Rails is awesome but no one has given hard facts as to why?

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January 25, 2013, 06:13:20 PM
 #27

We should not be discussing about languages here, nor should we discuss about frameworks.

There are several "camps" out there. Each of those believes, their approach is the true way, and as such is inherently secure, scalable, easy to write easy to maintain and so on. While, of course, ASP.NET, Java/JBoss, RoR, Grails, .... is an outright plain idiotic thing to do.

At the start of an successful undertaking, in most of all cases there is either one or both of the following:
  • a group of people knowing each other. They share a common mindset, and when they are developers, they all belong to one "camp" and know hot to get things done. If you start this way, then learn to deal with the weaknesses of the given technology stack, but stick to it.
  • otherwise, someone proceeding in a knowingly and mature fashion, keeping out quarrels and power play, setting a clear direction for the work, systematically addressing each of the relevant concerns, but doing so in a level-headed fashion, not overdoing anything.

1. Open source
2. Proven
3. Scalable
4. Availability of developers
Collocated on dedicated hardened secure servers and maintained by competent devs and sysadmins and you've got a robust and secure system.

Any one would shocked to know the true extent that the legacy financial system is hacked on all their proprietary commercial grade hardware and software.  

So it's not necessarily the system / language that matters but the quality of the work of the individuals who implement your system

(And still your gonna get hacked if your system has any real value)
Can't agree more!


Especially for security, when we're entering a realm of "serious business", the key point is not to build counter measures against every conceivable thread, but rather to be able to prove that you've done your due diligence regarding security. For a business, its important to be able to offload the liability for some aspects of security to other persons and institutions.

To create a somewhat stylized and hypothetical example:
An entrepreneur hires two developers to build (or rebuild) a site. But he tells them right away, that security is a concern, and thus
  • that he will conduct regular code reviews with them, where they have to explain security-relevant topics and decisions to him.
  • that there will be an external security audit prior to launch, and that they will be doing excess hours to fix any serious uncovered issues
So now its in the developers own interest to come up with clever and creative solutions to get a grip onto security. This, and the fact that they will regularly be forced to explain what they've done to an outsider will create a push in the direction of a more structured, architecture centric approach. Building this way will slow them down considerably for sure, so that is the price to pay. But in the end, both sides will benefit. The developers are relieved from those mind bogging discussions about the right level of carefulness and trickery, since there is a clear externally set goal to work against. Also, they've gotten a good argument to defeat pressure to move faster. And the entrepreneur, by conducting and moderating the code reviews, got a more thorough understanding of the technology and system to be built plus an external audit and testate, which is a building block for legal defence in case a real security breach happens later on.

While such an approach has proven his virtue in practice, unfortunately it's not a guaranteed recipe for success. It still pretty much depends on the personality of the people involved. Team up the "right" people in such a scheme, and it becomes a recipe for disaster  Grin
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January 26, 2013, 05:08:07 PM
 #28

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)

ASP.NET is precompiled, so it will always be faster than php.

You don't need to spend any money up front when developing in .NET technologies.  You can use encryption on Azure, and scale as you need to.

http://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/


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January 26, 2013, 05:58:16 PM
 #29

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)

ASP.NET is precompiled, so it will always be faster than php.

You don't need to spend any money up front when developing in .NET technologies.  You can use encryption on Azure, and scale as you need to.

http://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/



Who is going to take the advice of a man who's icons is a fat nibble licker.

Thanks. but no thanks.
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January 26, 2013, 06:46:16 PM
 #30

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)

ASP.NET is precompiled, so it will always be faster than php.

You don't need to spend any money up front when developing in .NET technologies.  You can use encryption on Azure, and scale as you need to.

http://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/



Who is going to take the advice of a man who's icons is a fat nibble licker.

Thanks. but no thanks.

Not offering advice - just facts.   Wink

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January 26, 2013, 06:49:40 PM
 #31

Especially for security, when we're entering a realm of "serious business", the key point is not to build counter measures against every conceivable thread, but rather to be able to prove that you've done your due diligence regarding security. For a business, its important to be able to offload the liability for some aspects of security to other persons and institutions.

To create a somewhat stylized and hypothetical example:
An entrepreneur hires two developers to build (or rebuild) a site. But he tells them right away, that security is a concern, and thus
  • that he will conduct regular code reviews with them, where they have to explain security-relevant topics and decisions to him.
  • that there will be an external security audit prior to launch, and that they will be doing excess hours to fix any serious uncovered issues
So now its in the developers own interest to come up with clever and creative solutions to get a grip onto security. This, and the fact that they will regularly be forced to explain what they've done to an outsider will create a push in the direction of a more structured, architecture centric approach. Building this way will slow them down considerably for sure, so that is the price to pay. But in the end, both sides will benefit. The developers are relieved from those mind bogging discussions about the right level of carefulness and trickery, since there is a clear externally set goal to work against. Also, they've gotten a good argument to defeat pressure to move faster. And the entrepreneur, by conducting and moderating the code reviews, got a more thorough understanding of the technology and system to be built plus an external audit and testate, which is a building block for legal defence in case a real security breach happens later on.

While such an approach has proven his virtue in practice, unfortunately it's not a guaranteed recipe for success. It still pretty much depends on the personality of the people involved. Team up the "right" people in such a scheme, and it becomes a recipe for disaster  Grin

THAT is the truth right there .. take note.

I disagree, security should not be your #1 concern when choosing a language.

Um, this is going to be a Bitcoin business. Personally, I think security should #1 AND #2. In the end, who gives a damn how many times your server crashes in a day, if ALL your Bitcoins magically disappear. I would strongly advise that you separate your web server from your bitcoin server as was suggested earlier. And at the very least put some IDS software on so you know what the hell is happening at all times:

I have extensive experience working with both ASP.NET and PHP and if startup/operational costs matter at all to you, I'd say choose anything BUT ASP.NET. Relatively speaking (and I acknowledge there is obviously some value from Redmond) they are just WAY, WAY too expensive (licensing every which way you turn -- till you get dizzy and collapse). Unfortunately, many young startups find this out too late.

Just my 2 bitcents
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January 27, 2013, 03:39:30 AM
 #32

For the most part, a framework doesn't dictate the security. A language/platform doesn't usually make a website "insecure", the code or configuration usually does.
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January 27, 2013, 03:50:39 AM
 #33

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)

Personally, I see lots of .NET shops considering moving off of the framework in general since Microsoft is very sketchy on the roadmap with WinRT/Windows 8 and especially with the disconnect between ASP.NET and the web. MVC is a step in the right direction but I don't think it has enough traction to be viable long term. Also, if Microsoft ever pulls the plug, you get stuck...

Python all the way!!! Tongue

Edit: oh yeah, you should ping all the people that posted in this topic: Anyone looking for work? (Lol, none of them are .NET devs)

Yeah nothing in there was right.  Not scalable? Stackexchange is an example of a web project built using ASP.NET (2.8 million users, 13 million+ questions & answers)
As for licensing startups can get licenses for up to three years using Microsoft bizspark program at no cost.
Microsoft pulling the plug on asp.net or MVC?  Absolute nonsense.  

Just the normal mindless "Microsoft sucks" from people who have never done any professional software development in their lives.
 
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January 27, 2013, 03:51:50 AM
 #34

For the most part, a framework doesn't dictate the security. A language/platform doesn't usually make a website "insecure", the code or configuration usually does.

No frameworks can have bugs that can hinder security so yes frameworks do dicate security. A language can be insecure making a website insecure, so your false, all three play a role in security.

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January 27, 2013, 03:55:30 AM
 #35

For the most part, a framework doesn't dictate the security. A language/platform doesn't usually make a website "insecure", the code or configuration usually does.

No frameworks can have bugs that can hinder security so yes frameworks do dicate security. A language can be insecure making a website insecure, so your false, all three play a role in security.
That's why I added, "for the most part". Please point out any security issues you are aware of with PHP, ASP.NET, Python or Ruby on Rails.
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January 27, 2013, 03:56:41 AM
 #36

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)

Personally, I see lots of .NET shops considering moving off of the framework in general since Microsoft is very sketchy on the roadmap with WinRT/Windows 8 and especially with the disconnect between ASP.NET and the web. MVC is a step in the right direction but I don't think it has enough traction to be viable long term. Also, if Microsoft ever pulls the plug, you get stuck...

Python all the way!!! Tongue

Edit: oh yeah, you should ping all the people that posted in this topic: Anyone looking for work? (Lol, none of them are .NET devs)

Yeah nothing in there was right.  Not scalable? Stackexchange is an example of a web project built using ASP.NET (2.8 million users, 13 million+ questions & answers)
As for licensing startups can get essentially licenses for up to three years using Microsoft bizspark program.
Microsoft pulling the plug on asp.net or MVC is just nonsense?  Absolute nonsense.  

Just the normal mindless "Microsoft sucks" from people who have never done any professional software development in their lives.

Yes stackexchange is built on ASP.NET BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT they have System engineers that have put a lot machines and hardware at the problem, maybe you should take a look at this

http://highscalability.com/blog/2009/8/5/stack-overflow-architecture.html

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January 27, 2013, 03:59:01 AM
 #37

For the most part, a framework doesn't dictate the security. A language/platform doesn't usually make a website "insecure", the code or configuration usually does.

No frameworks can have bugs that can hinder security so yes frameworks do dicate security. A language can be insecure making a website insecure, so your false, all three play a role in security.
That's why I added, "for the most part". Please point out any security issues you are aware of with PHP, ASP.NET, Python or Ruby on Rails.

If you look at my other post I have pointed out a lot of security bugs in RoR and php has the least since it has the bigger amount of users. Also I would think python would be in the same boat as PHP and ASP.NET in with RoR.

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January 27, 2013, 04:04:04 AM
 #38

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)

Personally, I see lots of .NET shops considering moving off of the framework in general since Microsoft is very sketchy on the roadmap with WinRT/Windows 8 and especially with the disconnect between ASP.NET and the web. MVC is a step in the right direction but I don't think it has enough traction to be viable long term. Also, if Microsoft ever pulls the plug, you get stuck...

Python all the way!!! Tongue

Edit: oh yeah, you should ping all the people that posted in this topic: Anyone looking for work? (Lol, none of them are .NET devs)

Yeah nothing in there was right.  Not scalable? Stackexchange is an example of a web project built using ASP.NET (2.8 million users, 13 million+ questions & answers)
As for licensing startups can get essentially licenses for up to three years using Microsoft bizspark program.
Microsoft pulling the plug on asp.net or MVC is just nonsense?  Absolute nonsense.  

Just the normal mindless "Microsoft sucks" from people who have never done any professional software development in their lives.

Yes stackexchange is built on ASP.NET BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT they have System engineers that have put a lot machines and hardware at the problem, maybe you should take a look at this

http://highscalability.com/blog/2009/8/5/stack-overflow-architecture.html

What point are you trying to get a across? That to optimise a website you need System Engineers? Well that's kind of a given when you are looking at a scale that big.

You will have these exact same problems with MySQL when looking at that scale. You can only scale up to some extent, then you will require techniques to allow you to scale out, like using replication.
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January 27, 2013, 04:11:28 AM
 #39

What point are you trying to get a across? That to optimise a website you need System Engineers? Well that's kind of a given when you are looking at a scale that big.

You will have these exact same problems with MySQL when looking at that scale. You can only scale up to some extent, then you will require techniques to allow you to scale out, like using replication.

If you read the article and look at how there setup is, they obviously are locked into a scenario where they can't even change databases, so the only way they can scale is with hardware. Now you can get more performance out of MySQL but either changing the database engine, or even using a mysql build that has beter performance and is tested. Kinda like twitter. SO the point I am trying to get across is that with ASP.NET and C# the only way to scale is thru hardware, and with other options you can just switch out some software and then you can do hardware scaling. So yea what would you want to do spend cash as a startup on hardware? Or go with this proven software that is free?

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January 27, 2013, 04:50:19 AM
 #40


Sorry....
I would worry about anyone with a masters degree in business... getting their business advice from people on an internet forum.
fine ask specific BITCOIN questions, but high security systems design is a completely different kettle of fish.




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