State level regulation

[JCdeuce]

Hi,
Based on guidance some states have released such as Texas (http://www.dob.texas.gov/public/uploads/files/consumer-information/sm1037.pdf), Tennessee (http://tn.gov/assets/entities/tdfi/attachments/2015-12-16_TDFI_Memo_on_Virtual_Currency.pdf) and others, can i operate bitcoin kiosks (in the same manner as described for what will not require a license e.g no third party involves the tx) in these states?
Do i need to get any kind of approval from the regulator prior to start operating there or can i just start?

Thx

[1715701054]

1715701054

[1715701054]

1715701054

[Fortify]

To be legally covered, you'd have to speak to an attorney who specializes in this area, you should not be relying on unfettered feedback on an internet message board. Maybe you could try to speak to the financial regulator in your state or some sort of citizens advice agency if you need to do it cheaply. Bitcoin is still developing and so are the regulations around it

[European Central Bank]

What is a bitcoin kiosk? Do you mean an ATM or a booth that's selling bitcoin?

[JCdeuce]

What is a bitcoin kiosk? Do you mean an ATM or a booth that's selling bitcoin?

I mean a bitcoin ATM.

[AgentofCoin]

What is a bitcoin kiosk? Do you mean an ATM or a booth that's selling bitcoin?

I mean a bitcoin ATM.

According to what you provided and that it is official and has not been contradicted in a newer document,
yes, you may set up an bitcoin atm without permission, as long as it is not using a third-party exchange.

But as required, my advice should not be interpreted as a legal opinion and you should see and
request a full legal interpretation or opinion in writing by an attorney in those states you intend to operate.

There may be other issues that apply to you but are not addressed in those documents.
(Is it a hobby or a business? BTC profit taxes paid individually or as a business? etc etc).

Talking to a lawyer who is knowledgeable about such matters, before proceeding, is the smartest thing to do.

[JCdeuce]

What is a bitcoin kiosk? Do you mean an ATM or a booth that's selling bitcoin?

I mean a bitcoin ATM.

According to what you provided and that it is official and has not been contradicted in a newer document,
yes, you may set up an bitcoin atm without permission, as long as it is not using a third-party exchange.

But as required, my advice should not be interpreted as a legal opinion and you should see and
request a full legal interpretation or opinion in writing by an attorney in those states you intend to operate.

There may be other issues that apply to you but are not addressed in those documents.
(Is it a hobby or a business? BTC profit taxes paid individually or as a business? etc etc).

Talking to a lawyer who is knowledgeable about such matters, before proceeding, is the smartest thing to do.

And what if it's an online broker selling his own stock without a third party involved, You think the same applies?

[AgentofCoin]

What is a bitcoin kiosk? Do you mean an ATM or a booth that's selling bitcoin?

I mean a bitcoin ATM.

According to what you provided and that it is official and has not been contradicted in a newer document,
yes, you may set up an bitcoin atm without permission, as long as it is not using a third-party exchange.

But as required, my advice should not be interpreted as a legal opinion and you should see and
request a full legal interpretation or opinion in writing by an attorney in those states you intend to operate.

There may be other issues that apply to you but are not addressed in those documents.
(Is it a hobby or a business? BTC profit taxes paid individually or as a business? etc etc).

Talking to a lawyer who is knowledgeable about such matters, before proceeding, is the smartest thing to do.

And what if it's an online broker selling his own stock without a third party involved, You think the same applies?

An online broker can only apply if the broker takes the orders online,
but then meets in person and exchanges the btc for currency directly.
That is why the self-stocked ATM is important and legally allowed.
It doesn't use 3rd-party and transacts directly on the spot as your in person representative.

According to the documents, the full transaction must be made directly and made immediately.
There can be no 3rd-party exchanger/escrower or a promise to pay later.

This means that if you accept a bank deposit from someone, you confirm that the deposit was made,
then send the btc to the buyers btc address shortly later, all while sitting in your home or office,
then, according to the documents, you acted as a money transmitter.

In addition, your bank could be argued to be an "exchanger/escrow" for your portion of the transaction and
ultimately you provided a promise to pay later after you made sure you received your currency.


Of course, this advice should not be regarded as a legal opinion and you should seek out a lawyer
who is knowledgeable and licensed to practice law in the jurisdiction that you wish to do business in.

[JCdeuce]

What is a bitcoin kiosk? Do you mean an ATM or a booth that's selling bitcoin?

I mean a bitcoin ATM.

According to what you provided and that it is official and has not been contradicted in a newer document,
yes, you may set up an bitcoin atm without permission, as long as it is not using a third-party exchange.

But as required, my advice should not be interpreted as a legal opinion and you should see and
request a full legal interpretation or opinion in writing by an attorney in those states you intend to operate.

There may be other issues that apply to you but are not addressed in those documents.
(Is it a hobby or a business? BTC profit taxes paid individually or as a business? etc etc).

Talking to a lawyer who is knowledgeable about such matters, before proceeding, is the smartest thing to do.

And what if it's an online broker selling his own stock without a third party involved, You think the same applies?

An online broker can only apply if the broker takes the orders online,
but then meets in person and exchanges the btc for currency directly.
That is why the self-stocked ATM is important and legally allowed.
It doesn't use 3rd-party and transacts directly on the spot as your in person representative.

According to the documents, the full transaction must be made directly and made immediately.
There can be no 3rd-party exchanger/escrower or a promise to pay later.

This means that if you accept a bank deposit from someone, you confirm that the deposit was made,
then send the btc to the buyers btc address shortly later, all while sitting in your home or office,
then, according to the documents, you acted as a money transmitter.

In addition, your bank could be argued to be an "exchanger/escrow" for your portion of the transaction and
ultimately you provided a promise to pay later after you made sure you received your currency.


Of course, this advice should not be regarded as a legal opinion and you should seek out a lawyer
who is knowledgeable and licensed to practice law in the jurisdiction that you wish to do business in.

Why would the broker need to meet in person if he is selling bitcoin (online) from his own stock without any 3rd party/exchanger/escrower involved and in case the transaction is made directly and immediately without a promise to pay later?
From my understanding, if all these conditions are met (no 3rd party, made directly, no promise to pay later) then this exception should also apply for online bitcoin brokers.

[AgentofCoin]

What is a bitcoin kiosk? Do you mean an ATM or a booth that's selling bitcoin?

I mean a bitcoin ATM.

According to what you provided and that it is official and has not been contradicted in a newer document,
yes, you may set up an bitcoin atm without permission, as long as it is not using a third-party exchange.

But as required, my advice should not be interpreted as a legal opinion and you should see and
request a full legal interpretation or opinion in writing by an attorney in those states you intend to operate.

There may be other issues that apply to you but are not addressed in those documents.
(Is it a hobby or a business? BTC profit taxes paid individually or as a business? etc etc).

Talking to a lawyer who is knowledgeable about such matters, before proceeding, is the smartest thing to do.

And what if it's an online broker selling his own stock without a third party involved, You think the same applies?

An online broker can only apply if the broker takes the orders online,
but then meets in person and exchanges the btc for currency directly.
That is why the self-stocked ATM is important and legally allowed.
It doesn't use 3rd-party and transacts directly on the spot as your in person representative.

According to the documents, the full transaction must be made directly and made immediately.
There can be no 3rd-party exchanger/escrower or a promise to pay later.

This means that if you accept a bank deposit from someone, you confirm that the deposit was made,
then send the btc to the buyers btc address shortly later, all while sitting in your home or office,
then, according to the documents, you acted as a money transmitter.

In addition, your bank could be argued to be an "exchanger/escrow" for your portion of the transaction and
ultimately you provided a promise to pay later after you made sure you received your currency.

Of course, this advice should not be regarded as a legal opinion and you should seek out a lawyer
who is knowledgeable and licensed to practice law in the jurisdiction that you wish to do business in.

Why would the broker need to meet in person if he is selling bitcoin (online) from his own stock without any 3rd party/exchanger/escrower involved and in case the transaction is made directly and immediately without a promise to pay later?

How would the buyer be playing online?
If there is any waiting with the payment system, it is a promise to pay later.
Cash is immediate and needs to be done in person usually.

From my understanding, if all these conditions are met (no 3rd party, made directly, no promise to pay later) then this exception should also apply for online bitcoin brokers.

If you use a site to facilitate your payments and trades, that would be a violation of that states law.
If the broker doesn't meet in person, it is almost always a promise to pay later situation.

Can you provide a detailed explanation on how you would do this online and still have
immediate and direct exchange?

[BellaBitBit]

Definitely consult with a Bitcoin attorney in your jurisdiction to make certain.  Hopefully states will start being consistent with each other to make doing business easier.

[JCdeuce]

What is a bitcoin kiosk? Do you mean an ATM or a booth that's selling bitcoin?

I mean a bitcoin ATM.

According to what you provided and that it is official and has not been contradicted in a newer document,
yes, you may set up an bitcoin atm without permission, as long as it is not using a third-party exchange.

But as required, my advice should not be interpreted as a legal opinion and you should see and
request a full legal interpretation or opinion in writing by an attorney in those states you intend to operate.

There may be other issues that apply to you but are not addressed in those documents.
(Is it a hobby or a business? BTC profit taxes paid individually or as a business? etc etc).

Talking to a lawyer who is knowledgeable about such matters, before proceeding, is the smartest thing to do.

And what if it's an online broker selling his own stock without a third party involved, You think the same applies?

An online broker can only apply if the broker takes the orders online,
but then meets in person and exchanges the btc for currency directly.
That is why the self-stocked ATM is important and legally allowed.
It doesn't use 3rd-party and transacts directly on the spot as your in person representative.

According to the documents, the full transaction must be made directly and made immediately.
There can be no 3rd-party exchanger/escrower or a promise to pay later.

This means that if you accept a bank deposit from someone, you confirm that the deposit was made,
then send the btc to the buyers btc address shortly later, all while sitting in your home or office,
then, according to the documents, you acted as a money transmitter.

In addition, your bank could be argued to be an "exchanger/escrow" for your portion of the transaction and
ultimately you provided a promise to pay later after you made sure you received your currency.

Of course, this advice should not be regarded as a legal opinion and you should seek out a lawyer
who is knowledgeable and licensed to practice law in the jurisdiction that you wish to do business in.

Why would the broker need to meet in person if he is selling bitcoin (online) from his own stock without any 3rd party/exchanger/escrower involved and in case the transaction is made directly and immediately without a promise to pay later?

How would the buyer be playing online?
If there is any waiting with the payment system, it is a promise to pay later.
Cash is immediate and needs to be done in person usually.

From my understanding, if all these conditions are met (no 3rd party, made directly, no promise to pay later) then this exception should also apply for online bitcoin brokers.

If you use a site to facilitate your payments and trades, that would be a violation of that states law.
If the broker doesn't meet in person, it is almost always a promise to pay later situation.

Can you provide a detailed explanation on how you would do this online and still have
immediate and direct exchange?

I mean a process like that: A user is creating an order on buybitcoin.com , enter his credit card details and as soon as he clicks "confirm payment" the coins are sent to his wallet. Same applies for cash meaning a user can send a cash transfer with one of the many cash remittance services and the moment his payment is arriving, the system automatically and immediately send the user his coins.
How is that different from a bitcoin atm operator that uses credit cards and cash to facilitate transactions? How is that different from any other non-bitcoin e-commerce website? I'm asking that from a consumer protection perspective which is often and even most of the time what matters the most to state regulators.

[AgentofCoin]

What is a bitcoin kiosk? Do you mean an ATM or a booth that's selling bitcoin?

I mean a bitcoin ATM.

According to what you provided and that it is official and has not been contradicted in a newer document,
yes, you may set up an bitcoin atm without permission, as long as it is not using a third-party exchange.

But as required, my advice should not be interpreted as a legal opinion and you should see and
request a full legal interpretation or opinion in writing by an attorney in those states you intend to operate.

There may be other issues that apply to you but are not addressed in those documents.
(Is it a hobby or a business? BTC profit taxes paid individually or as a business? etc etc).

Talking to a lawyer who is knowledgeable about such matters, before proceeding, is the smartest thing to do.

And what if it's an online broker selling his own stock without a third party involved, You think the same applies?

An online broker can only apply if the broker takes the orders online,
but then meets in person and exchanges the btc for currency directly.
That is why the self-stocked ATM is important and legally allowed.
It doesn't use 3rd-party and transacts directly on the spot as your in person representative.

According to the documents, the full transaction must be made directly and made immediately.
There can be no 3rd-party exchanger/escrower or a promise to pay later.

This means that if you accept a bank deposit from someone, you confirm that the deposit was made,
then send the btc to the buyers btc address shortly later, all while sitting in your home or office,
then, according to the documents, you acted as a money transmitter.

In addition, your bank could be argued to be an "exchanger/escrow" for your portion of the transaction and
ultimately you provided a promise to pay later after you made sure you received your currency.

Of course, this advice should not be regarded as a legal opinion and you should seek out a lawyer
who is knowledgeable and licensed to practice law in the jurisdiction that you wish to do business in.

Why would the broker need to meet in person if he is selling bitcoin (online) from his own stock without any 3rd party/exchanger/escrower involved and in case the transaction is made directly and immediately without a promise to pay later?

How would the buyer be playing online?
If there is any waiting with the payment system, it is a promise to pay later.
Cash is immediate and needs to be done in person usually.

From my understanding, if all these conditions are met (no 3rd party, made directly, no promise to pay later) then this exception should also apply for online bitcoin brokers.

If you use a site to facilitate your payments and trades, that would be a violation of that states law.
If the broker doesn't meet in person, it is almost always a promise to pay later situation.

Can you provide a detailed explanation on how you would do this online and still have
immediate and direct exchange?

I mean a process like that: A user is creating an order on buybitcoin.com , enter his credit card details and as soon as he clicks "confirm payment" the coins are sent to his wallet. Same applies for cash meaning a user can send a cash transfer with one of the many cash remittance services and the moment his payment is arriving, the system automatically and immediately send the user his coins.

Unfortunately, what you are describing is a "promise to pay later".
Also, if you use banks or credit cards, you are using a 3rd party exchanger.
The law protects P2P trades, what you are describing is not P2P, but all online.

How is that different from a bitcoin atm operator that uses credit cards and cash to facilitate transactions? How is that different from any other non-bitcoin e-commerce website? I'm asking that from a consumer protection perspective which is often and even most of the time what matters the most to state regulators.

I am not aware of Bitcoin ATMs that take credit cards, I think they are all cash.
In the event some do take credit cards, it probably has a limit of 20-50 USD per day.
Remember to keep in mind that this law applies to the state in question, and other
states have different regulations and laws that allow or restrict certain situations.

Non-bitcoin E-commerce websites? Can you provide an example? Are you sure they don't
have money transmission licenses or are actually illegal in the US? If they do exist, it is
possible they are maintained outside the US and is banned but the US can't stop US citizens
from using it.

Consumer protection, I do not believe, is the reasoning for these regulations and laws.
These laws are to prevent any money transmission outside of oversight and regulations  
without a licenses to do so. If you want to do money transmission, then you should apply
for a license like major exchanges (Coinbase and Bitstamp).

Of course, I am not providing legal advise and you know you should consult with a lawyer
within the jurisdiction in which you wish to conduct your bitcoin business and should receive
a proper and full legal opinion.

[duts_bg]

Be careful. Look here!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1471484.0