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Author Topic: Idea - BTC trading platform with possibility to go short.  (Read 1719 times)
alex_fun
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January 25, 2013, 11:03:38 PM
 #1

Hey folks.

The idea in brief. Lenders lend btc to platform for %. Platform then provide then to traders for % aka spread. Person wants to go short on btc aka bet btc value will fall against usd. He deposits 10 btc equivalent to the platform and gets 100 btc. If trade goes against him aka btc value rises to an extent that losses are 9 btc the position of liquidated.

The margins can be desided based on the intra day and weekly volatility.


Who is interested? Smiley

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Monster Tent
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January 25, 2013, 11:06:17 PM
 #2

Sounds like a bucket shop to me. See bitcoinica.

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January 29, 2013, 04:36:54 AM
 #3

Use Bitfinex.com. I've been trying them out recently, and I was able to get execute shorts flawlessly.
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February 03, 2013, 08:19:14 AM
 #4

Use Bitfinex.com. I've been trying them out recently, and I was able to get execute shorts flawlessly.

I second this recommendation.  Bitfinex is very useful (allows shorting, margin trading, and no risk loaning).
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February 03, 2013, 09:46:40 AM
 #5

Use Bitfinex.com. I've been trying them out recently, and I was able to get execute shorts flawlessly.

I second this recommendation.  Bitfinex is very useful (allows shorting, margin trading, and no risk loaning).
I'm not sure what your definition of "no risk" is.  Roll Eyes

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February 03, 2013, 10:13:42 AM
 #6

You can also try 1broker.com if you want to go short.
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February 07, 2013, 03:41:27 AM
 #7

I'm not sure what your definition of "no risk" is.  Roll Eyes

No risk meaning it's not like btcjam where the borrower can just decide not to pay back. Bitfinex will liquidate your margin position before you go negative. So borrowers don't have the option of not paying back their loans.

Of course the risk exists that the operators of the service are scammers or they get hacked. But that's a much lower risk than typical bitcoin loan arrangements where the guy you loan to just decides not to pay back.

I lend on bitfinex, btw.
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February 07, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
 #8

@dust Borrowers get Forced executed and this action do show up on the public log
https://bitfinex.com/pages/public_log
Quote
7477    FORCED EXECUTED @ 21.8893(-0.06)    -0.06    20 minutes ago

Quote
7413    FORCED EXECUTED @ 21.2498(-0.94)    -0.94    07 Feb 17:05

Quote
7401    FORCED EXECUTED @ 21.2(-31.64): was FORCED PARTIALLY FILLED @ 21.251(-10.45),PARTIALLY FILLED @ 21.2498(-4.71),PARTIALLY FILLED @ 21.213(-5.0),PARTIALLY FILLED @ 21.2088(-108.0)    -159.79    07 Feb 16:35

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 07, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
 #9

Hey folks.

The idea in brief. Lenders lend btc to platform for %. Platform then provide then to traders for % aka spread. Person wants to go short on btc aka bet btc value will fall against usd. He deposits 10 btc equivalent to the platform and gets 100 btc. If trade goes against him aka btc value rises to an extent that losses are 9 btc the position of liquidated.

The margins can be desided based on the intra day and weekly volatility.


Who is interested? Smiley
Hey! I posted the idea about shorting bitcoin ages ago here... Got shot down in flames by the usual douchbags. Its still a great idea.

Pies
stevegee58
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February 07, 2013, 04:45:48 PM
 #10

Anyone shorting BTC is simply opening themselves to a world of pain.  Have at it.  Cool

You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
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February 08, 2013, 06:05:05 PM
 #11

Anyone shorting BTC is simply opening themselves to a world of pain.  Have at it.  Cool
They should short USD towards BTC then to enter a world of joy? Wink

Bitfinex sounds nice... but then again there are some concerns - most of them mentioned in http://bitcoinmagazine.com/bitfinex-bitcoinica-rises-from-the-grave/

It might be interesting to play the metagame though (listing a fund on an exchange site that deposits to bitfinex)

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
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myself
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February 08, 2013, 07:07:15 PM
 #12

@Sukrim did you even bother to check if the information on that article is relevant ? and accurate ?

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 09, 2013, 10:43:24 PM
 #13

The account exists, the guy is probably(?) real and he was indeed advocating for pirateat40 and trying to push a scheme with 2% interest per week, maybe to get funds for his platform. The last 2 parts are for me an indication that someone did NOT do their homework in an very obvious field (risk management).

Also as there is no way of seing how many BTC + USD are actually on the platform (at least I haven't seen anything) the danger of it secretly becoming a bucket shop is real in my opinion, all it takes are a few whales.

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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February 09, 2013, 11:03:10 PM
 #14

Also as there is no way of seing how many BTC + USD are actually on the platform (at least I haven't seen anything) the danger of it secretly becoming a bucket shop is real in my opinion, all it takes are a few whales.
then you should comment in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131566.0

also you should check the loan market https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131573.0
currently the cheapest loan in USD is at 300% and that's far lower from rates from last week 1600% APY and sometime 9001% APY

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 10, 2013, 03:28:21 AM
 #15

Hey folks.

The idea in brief. Lenders lend btc to platform for %. Platform then provide then to traders for % aka spread. Person wants to go short on btc aka bet btc value will fall against usd. He deposits 10 btc equivalent to the platform and gets 100 btc. If trade goes against him aka btc value rises to an extent that losses are 9 btc the position of liquidated.

The margins can be desided based on the intra day and weekly volatility.


Who is interested? Smiley

Are you planning on building this?

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unclescrooge
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February 10, 2013, 11:24:19 AM
 #16

The account exists, the guy is probably(?) real and he was indeed advocating for pirateat40 and trying to push a scheme with 2% interest per week, maybe to get funds for his platform. The last 2 parts are for me an indication that someone did NOT do their homework in an very obvious field (risk management).

Also as there is no way of seing how many BTC + USD are actually on the platform (at least I haven't seen anything) the danger of it secretly becoming a bucket shop is real in my opinion, all it takes are a few whales.

Hi Sukrim,

I understand your concerns. I was scammed by pirateat40 and am not proud of that, but that's what actually boost me to build something actually useful.

The article your refer to is a bit old, Bitfinex has evolved a lot since then. Contrary to bitcoinica, bitfinex has a clear business model and leverage system that is working on his own and doesn't allow the risk of becoming a bucket shop: lenders provide usd and btc to go respectively long and short, the positions are not hedged against one each other as with Bitcoinica.

The platform is now profitable, and I have more interests in keeping it running than running away with the money and risking legal charges. PLus the adventure that it represents is enough on its own.

Now I understand that this can be not enough when so many hack and scams happened in bitcoin world. I try to be as transparent as possible, but I guess only time will eventually prove me trustable. If you have any idea of how to prove the money is there you can use the thread provided by myself. A way to now there is at least some money on our mtgox is to compare our public trades page with mtgox public trade history Smiley

Raphael
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February 10, 2013, 12:02:17 PM
 #17

I am not too familiar with shorting etc. but I think it should also be possible for you to calculate daily (as you pay out daily instead of continuously) the total limit the platform has before becoming a bucket shop and you can update this value even with every transaction logged.

I am of course not in a position to try this out, but are you for example denying ridicuolously huge positions that are just too big for the platform, meaning are there uppler limits as well?

Anyways on topic: as you can see there was already a popular platform for shorting (Bitcoinica) - but it ended up in tears, lawsuits etc.
Now a lot of people still would like to do these kind of trades - BUT there is a lot of mistrust going on and it's also quite hard to on the one hand do security right (Bitfinex' idea of only watching incoming transactions but creating outgoing transactions only once a day on an offline computer is a very good idea for example), on the other hand due to it's nature these platforms also have to deal with fiat - and that's also something where a lot of regulations come into place (Bitfines seems to be/want to be registered in Hong Kong).

Anyways, all the best to Bitfinex or whoever ends up being the next Bitcoinica, but one small error and it can also end like the last Bitcoinica!

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
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unclescrooge
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February 10, 2013, 12:21:10 PM
 #18

I am not too familiar with shorting etc. but I think it should also be possible for you to calculate daily (as you pay out daily instead of continuously) the total limit the platform has before becoming a bucket shop and you can update this value even with every transaction logged.

I am of course not in a position to try this out, but are you for example denying ridicuolously huge positions that are just too big for the platform, meaning are there uppler limits as well?

Well, it's even more precise than that: each time a trader want to open or increase a position, the system checks if there is enough lending offers to do that. If not, the order stays pending until there is. The traders see this little box below, indicating the maximum position they can open (with the average rate asked by lenders):


So when someone goes short, he selling real BTC provided by lenders, instead of hedging against someone going long. And the lender can't withdraw money used by traders, of course.

So you see, the leverage system has nothing to do with bitcoinica. Even if all long users sell their btc at once, Bitfinex stay balanced.

Anyways on topic: as you can see there was already a popular platform for shorting (Bitcoinica) - but it ended up in tears, lawsuits etc.
Now a lot of people still would like to do these kind of trades - BUT there is a lot of mistrust going on and it's also quite hard to on the one hand do security right (Bitfinex' idea of only watching incoming transactions but creating outgoing transactions only once a day on an offline computer is a very good idea for example), on the other hand due to it's nature these platforms also have to deal with fiat - and that's also something where a lot of regulations come into place (Bitfines seems to be/want to be registered in Hong Kong).

Anyways, all the best to Bitfinex or whoever ends up being the next Bitcoinica, but one small error and it can also end like the last Bitcoinica!

Yes, I agree, this is a big challenge. Thanks for the encouragement Smiley
Raphael
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March 11, 2013, 01:18:49 PM
 #19

(12) I will soon bring it on a full report about my relationship with exxe and 1BTCroker. Stay tuned.   Lips sealed (12)
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April 12, 2013, 10:55:28 PM
 #20

Cool stuff Cheesy Shorting is sweet sometimes Smiley

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