Combating Oligarchy

[DooMAD]

It seems that certain elements in the Bitcoin community seem to think they know what's best for the rest of us.  Not unlike their cousins in political office, or sitting on the boards of large companies, they posses a degree of arrogance and narcissism that predispose them to this belief.  That would be fine if it stopped there, but when it extends to:

• DDoS attacks against people running Bitcoin nodes that conflict with their personal visions of the future
• Ad hominem attacks on respected members of the community that don't agree with them
• A refusal by other members with the same preference to disavow the above actions and shun the guilty parties

Not to mention:

• Running a modified client to spoof client version and manipulate the figures (which could lead to a premature fork, which is more dangerous than a fork with consensus)
• Impersonating satoshi to discredit a fork proposal
• Dismissing all fork proposals as an altcoin

The dirty tricks campaign needs to cease.

[/list]

[valta4065]

A bitcoin oligarchy is better than a bitcoin democracy.

A democracy is a 51% attack, 51% of people vote for redistributing your coins to them, and you`d have no say in the matter.

So lets avoid that disaster.

Stupid remark. A bitcoin democracy would apply to how the network works. It couldn't take out the coins from your wallet to spread it.

But tell us more how an olligarchy is better than a democracy

[schlonged]

Schlong the Oligarchs!






http://lidblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/huge.jpg




http://libertycitys.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/donald-trump-schlonged.jpg

[Lauda]

Not to mention:

• Running a modified client to spoof client version and manipulate the figures (which could lead to a premature fork, which is more dangerous than a fork with consensus)
• Impersonating satoshi to discredit a fork proposal
• Dismissing all fork proposals as an altcoin

The dirty tricks campaign needs to cease.

It seems that people forgot about the Pseudo nodes in the 'XT drama'. As far as satoshi is concerned, we don't have evidence of it being fake nor evidence that it is real (do we?). However, the third point is debatable. Some call them contentious HF's, some call them altcoins, and such. There is no clear definition of what they are. There have been shady actions from both sides that I disagree with.

We need 18% more nodes and Core will lose their majority. Now that's a leverage we can get it. Since I am sure they will fail to launch SegWit on time, because that's how Core is. It required a lot of drama and a lot of meetings so they can finally put a date on it that they will not respect it.

The number of nodes is an useless metric, especially since one of your biggest supporters (Armstrong) is promoting a sybil-attack on the network. It won't matter even if you had 10 million nodes on Amazon.

They never and will never respect Bitcoin community opinion. We don't need this kind of people.

Said by the people who try to break consensus and keep starting "wars" and attacks on individuals(e.g. /r/btc). This does not help anyone.

[Carlton Banks]

A bitcoin oligarchy is better than a bitcoin democracy.

A democracy is a 51% attack, 51% of people vote for redistributing your coins to them, and you`d have no say in the matter.

So lets avoid that disaster.

I dont see the rationale behind saying it is better when 1% decide about where Bitcoin is heading compared to majority vote. Actually supporting antidemocracy governance is not legal in democracies to keep majority of population safe from dictators who want all the power for themselves - so lets avoid that disaster for people in Bitcoin as well.

I wonder why so many despotist joined originally libertarian project. I guess they just joined because Bitcoin was so usefull for silk road and other illegal activities, I have no other explanation for such minded people here.

Libertarianism has nothing to do with democracy, it's expressedly anti-democratic. Property rights and peer-to peer contracts are the basis of libertarianism, so you and everyone else cannot expect to make design decision s for the Bitcoin Project, because it's not yours to decide.

So, you can decide how you spend your Bitcoins, or even which cryptocoin you use, but you won't be making any design decision for the Bitcoin Project, unless your code is accepted as a pull request on github.com/bitcoin. No democracy involved. Sorry about that. 

[gentlemand]

Welcome to the altcoin section everyone. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

[Lauda]

Welcome to the altcoin section everyone. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

It was just a question of time.

Libertarianism has nothing to do with democracy, it's expressedly anti-democratic. Property rights and peer-to peer contracts are the basis of libertarianism, so you and everyone else cannot expect to make design decision s for the Bitcoin Project, because it's not yours to decide.

We should try to use less politics in the ecosystem. Bitcoin is not a democracy. I have no idea how some people came up with this idea?

[franky1]

We should try to use less politics in the ecosystem. Bitcoin is not a democracy. I have no idea how some people came up with this idea?

it happened when you and your campaigners for blockstream government decided to take to propaganda for anything not blockstream

[Carlton Banks]

We should try to use less politics in the ecosystem. Bitcoin is not a democracy. I have no idea how some people came up with this idea?

it happened when you and your campaigners for blockstream government decided to take to propaganda for anything not blockstream

Are you for it or against it?


You've got no right to tell me what to do, as I have no right to tell you your business. So why do you spend 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, telling the Bitcoin dev team what to do Franky? It seems you only like governance when the governors get the "right" answer.

You're so obsessed with 2MB blocks being some kind of magic number, that you're happy to spend every minute of every day talking about it every (im)possible way that you can with your Photoshop pictures. But if you really want your special 2MB blocks, I have the answer for you: go somewhere else.

Because this Project is not your property. Stop trying to impose your will on other people's property, and you'll actually end up with some friends (non-sock puppets of that guy working in the cubicle across form you, that is)

[Lauda]

You've got no right to tell me what to do, as I have no right to tell you your business. So why do you spend 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, telling the Bitcoin dev team what to do Franky? It seems you only like governance when the governors get the "right" answer.

Because this Project is not your property. Stop trying to impose your will on other people's property, and you'll actually end up with some friends (non-sock puppets of that guy working in the cubicle across form you, that is)

I am also financially prepared to fund 5000 nodes with ease.

As long as you don't join in on the Sybil attack on Amazon it is fine. However, deploying 5000 nodes at a single house has a similar effect (the decentralization does help with the networks reliability and safety).

In a brighter news. Bitcoin Core is lossing majority on nodes count everyday.

I missed your first post (this one) about nodes. The number of nodes is a very unreliable metric. I'm not sure what you think you would accomplish even if you had the majority of nodes.

Sabotage , propaganda and infiltration has been a weapon of choice of the leftists since the Bolsheviks.

The real question is why are people letting themselves be manipulated? I could just as easily DDoS the next service that shows strong support for Core and blame it all on Classic supporters to portray them as evil.

[RealBitcoin]

I dont see the rationale behind saying it is better when 1% decide about where Bitcoin is heading compared to majority vote. Actually supporting antidemocracy governance is not legal in democracies to keep majority of population safe from dictators who want all the power for themselves - so lets avoid that disaster for people in Bitcoin as well.

I wonder why so many despotist joined originally libertarian project. I guess they just joined because Bitcoin was so usefull for silk road and other illegal activities, I have no other explanation for such minded people here.

I`m not despotistic, and I`m absolutely 1000% anti-tyrrany.

But, you fail to see how a system that is broken is anything better than what any despot could offer.

So I`d prefer a weighted democracy, if that is what you want to call it, where you get voting % based on your bitcoin worth rather than just being a user.

So yes in that sense i support democracy but only if it's properly weighted.

A bitcoin oligarchy is better than a bitcoin democracy.

A democracy is a 51% attack, 51% of people vote for redistributing your coins to them, and you`d have no say in the matter.

So lets avoid that disaster.

Stupid remark. A bitcoin democracy would apply to how the network works. It couldn't take out the coins from your wallet to spread it.

But tell us more how an olligarchy is better than a democracy

Libertarianism has nothing to do with democracy, it's expressedly anti-democratic. Property rights and peer-to peer contracts are the basis of libertarianism, so you and everyone else cannot expect to make design decision s for the Bitcoin Project, because it's not yours to decide.

So, you can decide how you spend your Bitcoins, or even which cryptocoin you use, but you won't be making any design decision for the Bitcoin Project, unless your code is accepted as a pull request on github.com/bitcoin. No democracy involved. Sorry about that. 

The problem is that bitcoin is not a sunday picnic club, but a financial entity of 6 billion $, where our money is.

So it's logical if those that have more % ownership of the money, have more rights to decide about it.

If I`d own 5 billion $ in bitcoin, then bitcoin would almost literally be my property, and the miners and bitcoin users would only be my customers in my business.

Ok , there is no need to hide it anymore, so I say it out loud: BITCOIN IS A CORPORATION

Yes you heard it correctly. Its is a non-incorporated corporation, it may not be legally registered anywhere, but it is a corporation because those that hold most money in it, should own that % of it. And the miners and other users are just customers or employees.

So if I own X amount of BTC, that is my share in this business entity called bitcoin.

[SpiryGolden]

It's so shocking. It's a sad day for Bitcoin. When people that have the temporary majority scream :" Bitcoin = Corporation" , "Bitcoin = Not democracy" .  You guys have no shame at all?

while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

Seems like that's right satoshi. Users became tyrannical. We need to kill tyranny and it will be killed in a way or other. As in history, every tyran died on his own tongue.

Blockstream can't change history. Tyrans died or have been removed. Democracy will be enforced upon you no matter what and how.

Despots and Tyrans always failed. Maybe we won't win this battle. But I am sure we will win this war.

The ignorance of Blockstream Bitcoin is huge.

They say that Hard-Fork is dangerous. Not is not. Is dangerous cause they will make it be by sabotage it. They say that 2MB will slow down the confirmations. It has been tested and no it's not dangerous. Considering that better chips have been produces and soon to be sold again this is a claim by Blockstream corporatists that is false.

They are fully delusional and came up with ideas that don't stick up on the wall.

It is a sad day for Bitcoin to declare it under control of tyrans. Yes it is!


Tyrans that are trying their best to kill any other better option of Bitcoin source code. By make it it an "altcoin" when is actually Bitcoin. Tyrans that are trying to censor any word about other option. Exactly like in a communist ERA. I lived in a communist country...in the end the tyran died. As they all did. That's my only hope.

[DooMAD]

• Dismissing all fork proposals as an altcoin

The dirty tricks campaign needs to cease.

Welcome to the altcoin section everyone. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

It was worth a try.  Welcome to dismissal.  

The protectionist oligarchs don't want us discussing "contentious" hardforks, so we're being swept under the carpet again.

[RealBitcoin]

Seems like that's right satoshi. Users became tyrannical. We need to kill tyranny and it will be killed in a way or other. As in history, every tyran died on his own tongue.

Blockstream can't change history. Tyrans died or have been removed. Democracy will be enforced upon you no matter what and how.

Despots and Tyrans always failed. Maybe we won't win this battle. But I am sure we will win this war.

The ignorance of Blockstream Bitcoin is huge.

They say that Hard-Fork is dangerous. Not is not. Is dangerous cause they will make it be by sabotage it. They say that 2MB will slow down the confirmations. It has been tested and no it's not dangerous. Considering that better chips have been produces and soon to be sold again this is a claim by Blockstream corporatists that is false.

They are fully delusional and came up with ideas that don't stick up on the wall.

It is a sad day for Bitcoin to declare it under control of tyrans. Yes it is!

What is so tyrranical about it? Because i`m anti tyrrany, so please point it out to me because i cant see it.

We vote on things based on balance, bitcoin is private property after all, and if I have say 50 bitcoin and you have 20, then its obvious that i should have more rights than you because i hold more stake in it.

It's as simple is that, bitcoin is nothing more but a share/stock in this business, and if you have more you should have more rights.


It's not coercive by any means, and its totally voluntary.

Don't like it? Sell your coins and join another coin that is managed by other means, if you can find any.

The obvious truth is that leftist guys like you deny private property, and it's you who should be ashamed.

[SpiryGolden]

Seems like that's right satoshi. Users became tyrannical. We need to kill tyranny and it will be killed in a way or other. As in history, every tyran died on his own tongue.

Blockstream can't change history. Tyrans died or have been removed. Democracy will be enforced upon you no matter what and how.

Despots and Tyrans always failed. Maybe we won't win this battle. But I am sure we will win this war.

The ignorance of Blockstream Bitcoin is huge.

They say that Hard-Fork is dangerous. Not is not. Is dangerous cause they will make it be by sabotage it. They say that 2MB will slow down the confirmations. It has been tested and no it's not dangerous. Considering that better chips have been produces and soon to be sold again this is a claim by Blockstream corporatists that is false.

They are fully delusional and came up with ideas that don't stick up on the wall.

It is a sad day for Bitcoin to declare it under control of tyrans. Yes it is!

What is so tyrranical about it? Because i`m anti tyrrany, so please point it out to me because i cant see it.

We vote on things based on balance, bitcoin is private property after all, and if I have say 50 bitcoin and you have 20, then its obvious that i should have more rights than you because i hold more stake in it.

It's as simple is that, bitcoin is nothing more but a share/stock in this business, and if you have more you should have more rights.


It's not coercive by any means, and its totally voluntary.

Don't like it? Sell your coins and join another coin that is managed by other means, if you can find any.

The obvious truth is that leftist guys like you deny private property, and it's you who should be ashamed.

You thinking is flawed. Tyrany? You don't see it? Bitcoin Classic is diss'ed as an ALTCOIN and not BITCOIN. On every corner the tyrans are trying to shut down information about Bitcoin Classic so people will not be aware , so people will not have the right to choose! You don't see tyrany ?

When Leuda says : "Bitcoin is not democractic" . This doesn't sounds you like a tyranic? Not at all?

I think you should go read Bitcoin whitepaper and you can see that actually Bitcoin Core became an altcoin since it's much far from the initial project and roadmap.

Yeah I will be happy to dump my 500 coins if Bitcoin Blockstream Core wins this battle. Sadly they are controlling all media channels were people can inform themselves and choose. So this will be a hard battle.


bitcoin is supposed to be public consensus, not a group of elites getting togheter like Bilderberg Group trying to decide the faith of world. That's tyrany. That's against the freedom that Bitcoin has been promoted since it was born!

[btcbug]

This is what is eating the soul of Bitcoin at this hour. Greediness. Bitcoin Core greed to bank on higher fee's and on their off-chain solution offered by their father and almighty Blockstream funded with millions by Banks VC's.

If Bitcoin fails due to "greediness" then I think it was doomed from the start anyways.

This is like blaming the failures of government on greed. Greed will always exist, we just need to stop giving it the vehicle within which to thrive. I'm talking about centralization (the state) vs de-centralization (the free market).

We know that greed/power can best be limited through free market competition and that greed/power concentrates with the existence of a state.

It is quite possible that BTC simply wasn't as inherently decentralized as we all wanted to believe. If that's the case then ultimately the the worlds nation states will dominate it and use it to control to an even higher degree than they can with the existing financial system.

I think my opinion is that if we're counting human altruism vs greed to steer BTC down the right path, then it's already not de-centralized enough and will fail. That's where we vote with our money and move to an alt-coin, probably one that doesn't exist yet.

I'm not sure if the blocksize debate is an issue of centralization vs decentralization though. Perhaps both options are good enough, at least for a few years or decades. I see a lot of fear and panic by big block advocates, but I see the concern about chinese miners having to much power. I also see the guys with Millions invested as deserving more say because they have the most at stake.

Can it simply be categorized as greed to want to protect your investment? Call this a dictatorship if you want, but how is democracy any different. You can still end up with a 51 - 49 split. Democracy is a tyranny of the majority. What happens if the voters decide the opposite of those big investors and ultimately causes the to lose $Millions? Those investors and all that expertise will just leave for somewhere else and BTC will die a slow death anyways. Ever read Atlas Shrugged? If you treat capital poorly it will leave and all that will remain are those leeches that tried to vote it away from them out of good intentions.

That being said, I'd probably vote for a 2mb increase immediately followed by Segwit, etc. later. Part of me would like to see a big shakeup just for the sake of keeping things exciting. I'm curious to hear how much it costs to setup a Classic node in my home.

[btcbug]

bitcoin is supposed to be public consensus, not a group of elites getting togheter like Bilderberg Group trying to decide the faith of world. That's tyrany. That's against the freedom that Bitcoin has been promoted since it was born!

To add to my last post... I'm not entirely agreeing with this. Tyranny refers to excessive government control. In the physical world that achieved through force or threats of force. Government can force fiat currency on us through law. Crypto-currencies are changing that however, because they allow us to bypass the system (opt out completely). The hope is that because of the nature of crypto, it will be impossible to control. We can still choose a better alt-coin if one exists. The whole Crypto ecosystem is what prevents tyranny, not just Bitcoin.

Believe me, I will be sad if Bitcoin fails to achieve the ideals of decentralization (100% control of your own wealth, 100% privacy, etc). I have big stakes in it as well, but we must not become too emotionally attached. Keep your eyes open and be ready to abandon ship if necessary. That's not to say BTC will fail soon, or even in the next 10 years. I believe the price is going much higher yet.

[btcbug]

I am prepared to fund ten Bitcoin Classic nodes myself and am presently working out the details so I can get started.

Can you tell me what are costs, necessary hardware, etc. for me to setup a node at home? Thanks.

[RealBitcoin]

You thinking is flawed. Tyrany? You don't see it? Bitcoin Classic is diss'ed as an ALTCOIN and not BITCOIN. On every corner the tyrans are trying to shut down information about Bitcoin Classic so people will not be aware , so people will not have the right to choose! You don't see tyrany ?

You always have the right to choose, there are 700+ coins out there, each one with different specs. If you dont like bitcoin's structure, then create a democracy coin , nobody stops you from doing that.

When Leuda says : "Bitcoin is not democractic" . This doesn't sounds you like a tyranic? Not at all?

He is right, bitcoin is not democratic, it's a business, and the more money you have invested in it, the more dominance you have over it.

I have no problem letting the bitcoin elites vote for me with the condition that when i become rich others should honor this privilege too.

I think you should go read Bitcoin whitepaper and you can see that actually Bitcoin Core became an altcoin since it's much far from the initial project and roadmap.

I dont like to talk about technical aspects of bitcoin because i honestly tell you that i`m not expert in them.

However, you dont have the honesty of admitting that the majority of bitcoin users arent experts either, but you would like them to decide over it's faith.

It's like letting 5 year olds building a nuclear powerplant.

Yeah I will be happy to dump my 500 coins if Bitcoin Blockstream Core wins this battle. Sadly they are controlling all media channels were people can inform themselves and choose. So this will be a hard battle.

I dont think you have 500 bitcoin.

bitcoin is supposed to be public consensus, not a group of elites getting togheter like Bilderberg Group trying to decide the faith of world. That's tyrany. That's against the freedom that Bitcoin has been promoted since it was born!

It's a business, if you want your voice heard, build a big bitcoin company or get 1,000,000 bitcoins so that you have the leverage necessary to make your opinion heard.

[btcbug]

You thinking is flawed. Tyrany? You don't see it? Bitcoin Classic is diss'ed as an ALTCOIN and not BITCOIN. On every corner the tyrans are trying to shut down information about Bitcoin Classic so people will not be aware , so people will not have the right to choose! You don't see tyrany ?

You always have the right to choose, there are 700+ coins out there, each one with different specs. If you dont like bitcoin's structure, then create a democracy coin , nobody stops you from doing that.

This is correct. It's not Bitcoin that will necessarily stop abuses of power, but rather the choice to stop using it, which the mathematics of Cryptography have now given us. We now have the option to freely choose our currency and have 100% control over our wealth. The choice we all have to leave Bitcoin is what will necessarily keep it from becoming the ultimate tool of tyranny. Now the question is, who will be fooled and how much will people put up with before they leave? Those of us who value privacy will be watching, and we'll be long gone I think if it ever becomes an issue.