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Author Topic: The Bitcoin Illusion or "Things people should not forget in regard to BTC"  (Read 1334 times)
cschmitz
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June 09, 2011, 09:06:38 AM
 #1

I think Bitcoin is great and the system is, as far as one can see now, sound. However, we are seeing an increasing Trend where Bitcoin is being attributed with alot of aspects and concepts that are totally absend in the factual situation and a mere child of their imagination.

Lets summarize some of these concepts:
- Bitcoin will allow "fair" trade since it is not "manipulated" against "the small guy".

This seems to be one of the most prevalent ideas, that all of a sudden someone who is not making ends meet will become a gazillionaire with bitcoin since the only thing that stopped him so far was the plot of banks and governments against him.
Whilst the underlaying payment system in Bitcoin can not be centrally regulated or adjusted, the result is to an extend quite the contrary. Bitcoin is already showing that it will be an open and unregulated object of speculation, whilst this is good for the valueation, this will not benefit people who "cant make it now" to all of a sudden "make it" just due to bitcoin.
Totally open and unregulated systems are strictly "survival of the fittest" in its context and favour the fittest exactly because they treat everyone equally.

- Bitcoin will allow "us" to overthrow the government

The smallest common denominator with the "Bitcoin community" is that people have interest in Bitcoin. Not more, not less. Not everyone shares specific political ideologies or follows a certain economic agenda. The bitcoin community is, or will be soon, as diverse as a globalized society. Assuming that the Bitcoin community is a vehicle for a "New World Order" based on rather localized ideological movements such as the U.S. Libertarians is an absurd fallacy.
You can be sure that for every advocate of a certain ideology, you will find at least two people who oppose that specific ideology, so dont politicize Bitcoin.
The Bitcoin concept itself is a political statement, just allow it to have its effect and sit back, relax and enjoy the buzz.

- Bitcoin is great because it suddenly allows X Y Z

Whilst i agree that legislation in many places of the world goes over the top in punishing consumption of certain substances, there is valid reason for alot of things "not being allowed" by social consent, i.e. child pornography or other things. Bitcoin is like cash, and it should be treated like it. Buying drugs and snorting coke or buying child pornography anonymously isnt the greatest aspect about cash, so stop acting like its the greatest thing Bitcoin has to offer.

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eyal
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June 09, 2011, 09:15:54 AM
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When the value of your money increases over time (as it should be, due to constant technology-driven increase in productivity) then it is better for everyone. Over the last 30 years, the bankers scooped all the increased productivity to themselves, on the expense of the average Joe. It's not a matter of opinion. It's simply something some people are educated about, and some are not.

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amincd
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June 09, 2011, 09:20:22 AM
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Quote from: Schmitz
Lets summarize some of these concepts:
- Bitcoin will allow "fair" trade since it is not "manipulated" against "the small guy".


***

Whilst the underlaying payment system in Bitcoin can not be centrally regulated or adjusted, the result is to an extend quite the contrary. Bitcoin is already showing that it will be an open and unregulated object of speculation, whilst this is good for the valueation, this will not benefit people who "cant make it now" to all of a sudden "make it" just due to bitcoin.
Totally open and unregulated systems are strictly "survival of the fittest" in its context and favour the fittest exactly because they treat everyone equally.

The idea that free markets are 'survival of the fittest' is a myth. Free markets prevent the strong from crushing the weak. Almost all interventions in the economy by the government are done at the behest of market leaders, in order to reduce the number of competitors.

Those most helped by the free market are precisely those who are not already established in an industry and thus, with greater regulations, face higher regulatory compliance costs when they want to enter and those with the least financial means to buy political influence and get favorable regulations passed.

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- Bitcoin is great because it suddenly allows X Y Z


Whilst i agree that legislation in many places of the world goes over the top in punishing consumption of certain substances, there is valid reason for alot of things "not being allowed" by social consent, i.e. child pornography or other things. Bitcoin is like cash, and it should be treated like it. Buying drugs and snorting coke or buying child pornography anonymously isnt the greatest aspect about cash, so stop acting like its the greatest thing Bitcoin has to offer.

Buying drugs and buying child pornography are incomparable. One involves making a personal decision that will cause self-harm, and another contributes to an innocent party being harmed. Any way, I agree that buying drugs isn't the greatest aspect of the currency. It's just one area where it will have an advantage to traditional currencies.
nickwit
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June 09, 2011, 09:37:25 AM
 #4

+1 for opposition to Libertarianism...


... which as far as I can see is eugenic moral philosophy applied to economics, and then somehow blindly morphed into social policy. Incredibly sheltered and limited in perspective, entirely at odds with global evidence for the sorts of policies that actually work, and based on the really quite infantile morality of "Individual Responsibility" - Nietzsche for teenagers basically.

So yea - let bitcoin be an experiment without imposing crank localised political ideologies on it.



amincd
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June 09, 2011, 10:16:24 AM
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... which as far as I can see is eugenic moral philosophy applied to economics,

How did the belief in individual liberty turn into eugenics?

This demonization of individual freedom is exactly what the opponents of bitcoin are going to use.

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entirely at odds with global evidence for the sorts of policies that actually work,

I'm not seeing the evidence that controlled economies work or in any way benefit their population. Please name me one industry where regulations (government agents telling people they can't engage in mutually consensual transactions with others) have contributed to success.

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and based on the really quite infantile morality of "Individual Responsibility"

How is believing in individual responsibility "infantile morality". I really can't imagine what kind of ideological perspective you're coming from, to have such a seething hatred for the belief that a person's well being is primarily their own responsibility, and other's desire to protect every individual's contract liberty.

J180
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June 12, 2011, 09:54:02 AM
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+1 for opposition to Libertarianism...


... which as far as I can see is eugenic moral philosophy applied to economics, and then somehow blindly morphed into social policy. Incredibly sheltered and limited in perspective, entirely at odds with global evidence for the sorts of policies that actually work, and based on the really quite infantile morality of "Individual Responsibility" - Nietzsche for teenagers basically.

So yea - let bitcoin be an experiment without imposing crank localised political ideologies on it.


Your describing a narrow scope of libertarianism. The moral philosophy part (i.e Rand and Rothbard) does not mean libertarianism = moral philosophy. Libertarian in the modern American sense simply means wanting small government. Most libertarians want that because it either works better, or produces the kind of the society they want to live in. They don't derive it from ethics. Even with anarchism, David Friedman (an economics professor) argues for anarchism working while completely dismissing the 'this system is more ethical' approach of Rand and Rothbard.

wumpus
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June 12, 2011, 10:07:45 AM
 #7

I think Bitcoin is great and the system is, as far as one can see now, sound. However, we are seeing an increasing Trend where Bitcoin is being attributed with alot of aspects and concepts that are totally absend in the factual situation and a mere child of their imagination.
The most important aspect to Bitcoins, in my opinion, is that it allows for flat international trade.

In the same way that the internet made flat international data traffic possible. Before the internet, the telcos could charge arbitrary amounts for transferring information to other countries. Banks (especially MoneyGram/WesternUnion etc) still do this for cash transfers, so bitcoin is very disruptive here.

It is a technology that empowers people.  This can result in more individual freedom in some cases, but it certainly won't change the unfairness inherent in capitalism. It is simply capitalism in the new networked world.

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hugolp
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June 12, 2011, 10:34:55 AM
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+1 for opposition to Libertarianism...


... which as far as I can see is eugenic moral philosophy applied to economics, and then somehow blindly morphed into social policy. Incredibly sheltered and limited in perspective, entirely at odds with global evidence for the sorts of policies that actually work, and based on the really quite infantile morality of "Individual Responsibility" - Nietzsche for teenagers basically.

So yea - let bitcoin be an experiment without imposing crank localised political ideologies on it.

Actually, the people that supported eugenics were in general big intereventionists. Keynes and the early progressives supported eugenics.

How can you attribute something to libertarianism, when its attributable to the ideology you defend?
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