Bitcoin download speed singularity inevitable with Bitcoin Classic

[RealBitcoin]

I`ve already had a thread talking about download speed singularity, but now let's apply this problem to Bitcoin Classic.

Block size download speed singularity = Block size is so big, that it takes more than 10 minutes to download 1 block, so that a new block will form while you barely downloaded the previous one. Which means that you can never download the blockchain, and it will become an isolated, centralized entity, as nobody could download it, but the ultra fast internet owners, or the blockchain breaks up.

This is similar to how our universe is expanding, the OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE is an inverse singularity, because nothing can escape it ,and everything is trapped in it. Therefore, if the block size were to become like 1 TB, then obviously it will become impossible to download it in 10 minutes and therefore bitcoin ends as we know it.


Ok now this is a remote situation, and I get it , blassic wants a  2-4-8 mb block size, and the situation with 1 TB block size will be far in the future.

However there is another singularity, that is much closer, and much more worrysome: The Blockchain Size Download Speed Singularity

The Blockchain Size Download Speed Singularity = The blockchain itself is so big, that it is impossible to download it all from the start, and by the time you download it, it grows even more. So in the previous issue, you already had the blockchain somewhat up to date and you only needed the new blocks, which was impossible to download. But in this example, you are a fresh user, and want to grab the entire blockchain, which it will become impossible, because the daily max bandwidth will be a tiny fraction of the entire blockchain size.


This means that if the block size becomes say 64mb in the foreseeable say 6-7 years that would mean that it grows 9 GB/DAY, and if you want to download it from the start, a blockchain of 1-2 petabyte size by then, it would become impossible to download it, or very unfeasable.

This means that only existing nodes can hold the bitcoin, and there will be no new nodes, and it will become instantly centralized.


So if the Classic people want eventually 64-128-256 mb blocks, then this singularity will become inevitable, and it would destroy decentralized bitcoin as we know it.

This is another huge flaw Classic has, but it has been swept under the rug, so I`m here to expose this flaw.

[gentlemand]

But Core 'promised' us 2mb blocks in a piffling year and a half. Or are they special small 2mb blocks?

[franky1]

average internet speeds of 1999:
256kbit down 64kbit up (32kbyte down 8kbyte up) = (19meg down per 10 minutes 4.8megUP per 10 minutes)
(usually throttled down, but yes its possible to download an 5mb MP3 in 5 minutes at those speeds)

average internet speeds of 2015:
5mbit down 750kbit up (625kbyte down 93kbyte up) = (375meg down per 10 minutes 55megUP per 10 minutes)
(usually throttled down, but yes its possible to watch 3gb netflix in an hour (500mb in 10 minutes at those speeds)

so we can see a 10x growth in less than 20 years..
and the dooms day of large blocks such as the 1tb block the OP is prophesying. but lets say that in we grw to 4mb in 4 years, 8mb in 4 years and so on and so on.

then the average speed in MANY decades WILL cope.

i really love the blockstreamers and altcoiners doing all they can to shout out that onchain bitcoin's cant cope and to instead use their offchain/altcoins

lesson one to fudsters:
dont try grabbing a doomsday prophacy of 20+years to denounce possibility of a smaller growth now.
coz thats like trying to say that child abortion should happen because obesity and cancer will kill most people in 50 years so there is no point in anyone growing up

lesson two
try to us logical and rational and HONEST information about CURRENT situation to denounce CURRENT debate about CURRENT proposals

[MingLee]

This is actually a pretty good argument.

We can't have infinitely scaling blocks, but something that would slowly increase the block size once blocks get over 92% full wouldn't be bad.

I would like to point out that fiber-optic cables are going to be increasing the download speeds of normal people over the next decade, so maybe having the blockchain as >1Tb isn't something that would be completely detrimental? Sure they wouldn't be able to implement it quickly, but it could be implemented.

[RealBitcoin]

average internet speeds of 1999:
256kbit down 64kbit up (32kbyte down 8kbyte up) = (19meg down per 10 minutes 4.8megUP per 10 minutes)
(usually throttled down, but yes its possible to download an 5mb MP3 in 5 minutes at those speeds)

average internet speeds of 2015:
5mbit down 750kbit up (625kbyte down 93kbyte up) = (375meg down per 10 minutes 55megUP per 10 minutes)
(usually throttled down, but yes its possible to watch 3gb netflix in an hour (500mb in 10 minutes at those speeds)

so we can see a 10x growth in less than 20 years..
and the dooms day of large blocks such as the 1tb block the OP is prophesying. but lets say that in we grw to 4mb in 4 years, 8mb in 4 years and so on and so on.

then the average speed in MANY decades WILL cope.

i really love the blockstreamers and altcoiners doing all they can to shout out that onchain bitcoin's cant cope and to instead use their offchain/altcoins

lesson one to fudsters:
dont try grabbing a doomsday prophacy of 20+years to denounce possibility of a smaller growth now.
coz thats like trying to say that child abortion should happen because obesity and cancer will kill most people in 50 years so there is no point in anyone growing up

lesson two
try to us logical and rational and HONEST information about CURRENT situation to denounce CURRENT debate about CURRENT proposals

Growth is always logarithmic, which means that after some time it will slow down.

Thats the natural growth function of everything. Moore's law is bullshit pseudoscience, if you look at any other growth function over longterm you will see it's log based.

So the internet may grow 20x in the next years, but it may only grow 2x. I already have 20 mb/s internet, optical fiber.

So there is not much room left, yes maybe the cable structure can be improved ,and the network servers to be more efficient, but it will eventually hit a limit.

And then we are fucked, if the network starts to  dis-grow, which means grow in smaller and smaller increments, but the block size grows in larger and larger increments, then we are fucked.

Sorry but classic is not viable, and it will be a big danger in the future.

[franky1]

This is actually a pretty good argument.

We can't have infinitely scaling blocks, but something that would slowly increase the block size once blocks get over 92% full wouldn't be bad.

I would like to point out that fiber-optic cables are going to be increasing the download speeds of normal people over the next decade, so maybe having the blockchain as >1Tb isn't something that would be completely detrimental? Sure they wouldn't be able to implement it quickly, but it could be implemented.

in 2013 there was a bug that prevented blocks over 500k. so lets call it an unforseen hardcode limit.

once that was removed and the 1mb buffer could be truly utilized.. the blocks did not rapidly jump to being 900k in a few days. it took years. even if the real buffer limit was 4mb back then. it would not have made a difference because the miners only increased the number of transactions at a slower pace when they were comfortable.
lets call is a soft natural limit.

tomorrow we could if we wanted to put the hard limit to 200mb. and miners wont rush to hit that. instead month by month we may see blocks increase in size by 0.1mb if needed. and when the miners can cope.. it would take years to grow before its a problem using technology, but in those years people wont be using todays technology.

the only hindrance on growth is not technology but the agenda of coders. causing contention by not increasing a buffer

[Amph]

i don't see the issue with the blockchain size, which is growing by something like only 10gb-20gb per year

and you only need to download it once, then it can be easily given to your friend with a simple usb stick, there is no need for each person in the planet to download it

[franky1]

So the internet may grow 20x in the next years, but it may only grow 2x. I already have 20 mb/s internet, optical fiber.

exactly. so your a few years ahead of the game. so in 10 years 25mb will be the standard and you will probably be on a 100mb/s connection, when it becomes commonplace

after all was fiber commonplace 20 years ago? so expect changes to happen over the next 20 years

So there is not much room left, yes maybe the cable structure can be improved ,and the network servers to be more efficient, but it will eventually hit a limit.

so are you saying that no where in the world TODAY is there a 200mb/s internet connection that can be expanded upon and become commonplace in the 20 years time

[Niemands]

i don't see the issue with the blockchain size, which is growing by something like only 10gb-20gb per year

and you only need to download it once, then it can be easily given to your friend with a simple usb stick, there is no need for each person in the planet to download it

+1 agree to that

[RealBitcoin]

i don't see the issue with the blockchain size, which is growing by something like only 10gb-20gb per year

and you only need to download it once, then it can be easily given to your friend with a simple usb stick, there is no need for each person in the planet to download it

Perhaps but imagine how silly would that be. People would sell Bitcoin Blockchain part 1 , part 2 , part External HHD drives in stores each 100 petabyte.

How silly and ackward would that be to go into a tech store and buy bitcoin blockchain filled external hard disks, because the blockchain would be so big that you could not download it.

Of course eventually that will happen, but with 1 mb block this scenario would be in like 200 years, not 20.

[franky1]

i don't see the issue with the blockchain size, which is growing by something like only 10gb-20gb per year

and you only need to download it once, then it can be easily given to your friend with a simple usb stick, there is no need for each person in the planet to download it

fully agree

even at 2mb the maximum POTENTIAL is 105gb a year (but we know not all them blocks will be full straight away so its not a worry right now) and that can easily be downloaded with current and future technology as it grows.
let alone going old school and selling 7 years of blockchain data on a memory stick at a shop. just the same way people buy call of duty games at the walk in stores(im not a fan of old school, but i see no problem downloading online)

[franky1]

Perhaps but imagine how silly would that be. People would sell Bitcoin Blockchain part 1 , part 2 , part External HHD drives in stores each 100 petabyte.

How silly and ackward would that be to go into a tech store and buy bitcoin blockchain filled external hard disks, because the blockchain would be so big that you could not download it.

Of course eventually that will happen, but with 1 mb block this scenario would be in like 200 years, not 20.

whats silly is you using a doomsday scenario of 20+ years time to avoid expanding bitcoin this year.

please go to an abortion website and tell everyone abortions are good because it avoids the pain of their child having a heart attack or getting hit b a car in their 30's. because to me thats what the white noise of your rhetoric sounds like

[RealBitcoin]

whats silly is you using a doomsday scenario of 20+ years time to avoid expanding bitcoin this year.

please go to an abortion website and tell everyone abortions are good because it avoids the pain of their child having a heart attack or getting hit b a car in their 30's. because to me thats what the white noise of your rhetoric sounds like

Ok you want more nearby issues, fine.

What about parsing speed, you know that the blocks all have to be parsed as well, which requires not only good internet bandwidth, but also good processor speed.

So this issue could make all services slower, if they dont have the best available processors.


There is already a problem with node count decline, and more people will stop using full client, because not only the client is downloading the chain slow, but it also slows down PC while it calculates it.

Not to mention what the miners have to go through with huge blocks, its a lot of computing power, that could be more evenly spread out via a function of time, rather than cramming up a lot of block space which may or may not be processed in 10 minutes.

So I`m not sure how Litecoin or Doge will cope with that once they get the same size, but Bitcoin has specifically the 10 minute interval to ease the pain.

[Amph]

i don't see the issue with the blockchain size, which is growing by something like only 10gb-20gb per year

and you only need to download it once, then it can be easily given to your friend with a simple usb stick, there is no need for each person in the planet to download it

Perhaps but imagine how silly would that be. People would sell Bitcoin Blockchain part 1 , part 2 , part External HHD drives in stores each 100 petabyte.

How silly and ackward would that be to go into a tech store and buy bitcoin blockchain filled external hard disks, because the blockchain would be so big that you could not download it.

Of course eventually that will happen, but with 1 mb block this scenario would be in like 200 years, not 20.

oh never thought about that but yes they could actually transform this into a business, by selling usb stick with a pre-filled blockchain

well 200 years seems too drastic, i'm sure the block limit issue will be resolved much early, because they are forced to solve it within 1-2 years at least temporarily

however the final solution is another story

[rizzlarolla]

OP "Ok now this is a remote situation, and I get it , blassic wants a  2-4-8 mb block size, and the situation with 1 TB block size will be far in the future.
snip
This means that if the block size becomes say 64mb in the foreseeable say 6-7 years that would mean.....
snip
So if the Classic people want eventually 64-128-256 mb blocks, then this singularity will become inevitable, and it would destroy decentralized bitcoin as we know it.
This is another huge flaw Classic has, but it has been swept under the rug, so I`m here to expose this flaw."


Thanks for exposing this flaw.
Can't we just have bitcoin2mb

Not Classic, not Core, not Unlimited. not XT.
Not segwit, not RBF, not sidechains.

They are all partisan, likely corrupted, all flawed.

For now,
Just 2mb (with input cap?) nothing else.

[franky1]

Ok you want more nearby issues, fine.

What about parsing speed, you know that the blocks all have to be parsed as well, which requires not only good internet bandwidth, but also good processor speed.

So this issue could make all services slower, if they dont have the best available processors.

bitcoin can 'parse' validate fine on a 1.2ghz raspbeery Pi.. (basically phone technology). even a 2005 desktop is 2 times faster(3ghz dualcore)
and as for the cheapest desktop today. well thats atleast 4x faster (3ghz quarcore)

again not an issue

There is already a problem with node count decline, and more people will stop using full client, because not only the client is downloading the chain slow, but it also slows down PC while it calculates it.

node count decline??
how about the lame attitude of blockstreamers saying its ok to run a full node in no-witness mode.
how about the lame attitude of blockstreamers saying its ok to run a full node in pruned mode.

now that has a greater risk in the next 2 years to decline nodes than increasing the real buffer. especially when blocks WONT be instantly at 2mb bloat within days of being able to.. same as in 2013 when miners suddenly could get passed the 500kb bug, with the utility of getting to 1mb.. they didnt jump forward to 900kb average over night.

Not to mention what the miners have to go through with huge blocks, its a lot of computing power, that could be more evenly spread out via a function of time, rather than cramming up a lot of block space which may or may not be processed in 10 minutes.

miners will progress SLOWLY.. like they did in 2013.. so stop using doomsday of years away to scare people about today. especially when the doomsday lacks merit

[franky1]

Thanks for exposing this flaw.
Can't we just have bitcoin2mb

For now,
Just 2mb (with input cap?) nothing else.

agreed.
if all 12 different implementations. doesnt matter what brand or corporate logo it is.. if all just add the 2mb buffer without contention. we will all see there is no doomsday.

the only doomsday today is that core is creating the contention of a hard fork by themselves being the contention by saying they wont allow it.

[danda]

I have already experienced this.

When I started coding up bitprices I was initially using a locally running instance of the toshi server.  It took something like a month to get to May 2015 and once it started hitting the spam attack days, things just slowed to a crawl with some blocks taking 10+ minutes to verify and I soon realized it would never catch up at that rate.  So I shut it down and switched to btcd instead.  Toshi was running on a fairly beefy server:  16 core, 48 gig ram, Raid 1 7200 RPM.     It turns out the limiting factor was the disks and SSD is now recommended for running Toshi.

I realize this is somewhat apples and oranges with bitcoind.   But I wonder if toshi would even keep up on SSD with 2+ mb blocks.

The Blockchain Size Download Speed Singularity = The blockchain itself is so big, that it is impossible to download it all from the start, and by the time you download it, it grows even more.

[danda]

Can the blockchain still be downloaded via http and/or torrent?    I seem to recall that used to be possible, with some sort of published hash for verification...?

The trick with any scheme like this (download or on usb/cd) is establishing trust that the blockchain hasn't been tampered with.   There must be a simple way to verify via 3rd party tool(s).

oh never thought about that but yes they could actually transform this into a business, by selling usb stick with a pre-filled blockchain

[RealBitcoin]

Can the blockchain still be downloaded via http and/or torrent?    I seem to recall that used to be possible, with some sort of published hash for verification...?

The trick with any scheme like this (download or on usb/cd) is establishing trust that the blockchain hasn't been tampered with.   There must be a simple way to verify via 3rd party tool(s).

oh never thought about that but yes they could actually transform this into a business, by selling usb stick with a pre-filled blockchain

Torrent is not an elegant solution, yes bitcoin node can connect to 8 peers, and in torrents you can have infinite peers and that makes torrent download faster, but that's a very ugly solution.

However if the block size increases, torrents would be the only reasonable solution to download blockchain.

bitcoin can 'parse' validate fine on a 1.2ghz raspbeery Pi.. (basically phone technology). even a 2005 desktop is 2 times faster(3ghz dualcore)
and as for the cheapest desktop today. well thats atleast 4x faster (3ghz quarcore)

again not an issue

I`m not so sure you can parse through a 1 Terrabyte blockhain so fast.

There is also the hard disk read/write speed and stuff like that


You have to understand that the bitcoin blockchain is a liability, so it's better if it's as small as possible.

It's a necessary liability to keep a record of all transactions, but nontheless its a liability, and you want to keep all liabilities as small as possible.